ancient literature g(r)eeks, unite

[Mozartian]

Prometheus- we can continue our discussion here! Anyone else who's interested in the subject matter is, of course, also welcome!

I think we were speaking about Aristotle?

[imbetter]

Aristotle was a very important aspect of ancient Greek history. He played an important role in educating the Greeks in terms of acedemics. Aristotle was a student of Seracleuse (I forget how to spell it ). He was a man with a very interesting lifestyle. He didn't care at all of what other people thought of him. He would go out in public in the dirty, ragiest clothes imaginable. He didn't look it but he was a very inteligent man which tought Greeks most important scholars, like Plato, Aristotle, ect...

seraclease revelutionized the way Greeks looked at the world from a scientific and mathetmatic point of view. Many important discoveries about are universe is the fault of Seraclease.

Aristotle tutored Alexander the Great I believe?

[pianowolfi]

He didn't look it but he was a very inteligent man which tought Greeks most important scholars, like Plato, Aristotle, ect...

Sure, sometimes people are in need to teach themselves
(And Alexander the Great as well)

[pianowolfi]

BTW as much as I disagree with "prometheus" in religious matters (though this might just seem so, I don't know) I am very much a fan of the prototype Prometheus in the ancient Greek literature. He after all created mankind. He after all brought the indepedency from the established "gods" to humans. But since I promised not to enter religious discussions anymore....what else can I say

[prometheus]

Yes, Alexander's father hired Aristotle to teach his son. Smart move.

Alexander may be a person of warfare and a lot of acts that we justly find extremely cruel but he must have been a truly amazing person and he was a lot more than just a conquerer.

But wasn't Aristotle a student of Plato? We can be glad that so many works of Aristotle have survived.

Anyway, most of what I wanted to do was just express my annoyance with the disappearing of a whole thread and probably censorship in general since someone mentions that that one guy was banned.

And I mentioned that maybe I should read Plutarch's Parallel Lives.

Also, Epicurus sounds like someone I could agree with.

Also, these ancient greek philosophers and roman rhetoricians/politicians, many of their impressive intellectual work is now obsolete. That doesn't mean it isn't interesting. But from a purely 'hunger for knowledge'-perspective reading a science textbook is a better move then reading those ancient works.

[prometheus]

I am very much a fan of the prototype Prometheus in the ancient Greek literature.

Christ and Prometheus share a god archetype(sacrifice for mankind) though Jesus belongs to another much larger god archetype(Life-death-rebirth) as well.

Prometheus has another god archetype as well, steal from the gods. That's also a common mythological theme.

[living_stradivarius]

Aristotle is an anagram for "A tit loser." 

If you want your fill of modern allusions to Greek literature, go see Equus (Harry Potter's naked in it).

[pianowolfi]

Also, Epicurus sounds like someone I could agree with.

Oh yes, me too 

[rc]

I picked up this little book of Socrates dialogues.  It's a great book, helps me catch up on sleep!

[living_stradivarius]

Screw the ancient Greeks (actually they might have enjoyed it)...


THIS IS SPARTA!

[elspeth]

I'd like to put in a vote for the great dramatists... my favourites are Sophocles (as if you can avoid him!) and Euripides. I saw a cracking version of 'The Bacchai' last year, very well done and still relevant. I also like Homer.

I'm also a fan of Roman literature, I'm just starting to learn Latin and it's a beautiful language. Favourite authors there include Virgil and Ovid... just working towards the day when I can read their work in the right language!

[rc]

Screw the ancient Greeks (actually they might have enjoyed it)...


THIS IS SPARTA!

Good action scenes...  They shouldn't have bothered with any of the storyline.

[imbetter]

the spartans were a very violent civilization indeed

[Mozartian]

Screw the ancient Greeks (actually they might have enjoyed it)...


THIS IS SPARTA!

Um... DUDE!!!!!

Spartans were Greeks, too.  The war was between Sparta and Athens- both Greek colonies.

[prometheus]

Sure, they were greeks too. But be careful comparing them to Athenians...


Actually, Spartans weren't that violent. They didn't really like violence, the romans loved it. The Spartans were just though as nail.

[living_stradivarius]

Um... DUDE!!!!!

Spartans were Greeks, too.  The war was between Sparta and Athens- both Greek colonies.

In the context of the "Greek Literature" of this thread, the Spartans were as "Greek" (Athenian) as Puerto Ricans are Americans.

[prometheus]

Please explain.

[living_stradivarius]

Loose alliances.

[prometheus]

Athenians are as Greek as New Yorkers are America.


Plus, they did battle each other on occasion, to put it mildly.

[living_stradivarius]

Nah, Athenians are as Greek as the Confederates are America.

New York has yet to secede.

[Mozartian]

Actually, Spartans weren't that violent. They didn't really like violence, the romans loved it. The Spartans were just though as nail.

I completely disagree with you there- Spartans > Rome in terms of violence. I don't know how much you're read on them, but just reading the wikipedia page on Sparta can give you a pretty good idea of the brutality of the state. Rome was also violent, I know; but not to that extent.

[living_stradivarius]

I completely disagree with you there- Spartans > Rome in terms of violence. I don't know how much you're read on them, but just reading the wikipedia page on Sparta can give you a pretty good idea of the brutality of the state. Rome was also violent, I know; but not to that extent.

Recommended Reading: Thucydides

[prometheus]

I completely disagree with you there-

Can you give an example?

[Mozartian]

Can you give an example?

Surely!

from wikipedia:

"If male babies born in Sparta were too small, weak or sick (all of which were believed as early signs that they would not be suitable for military life), they were abandoned on the slopes of Mt. Taygetos to die. The mountain was also known as Apothetae, or as the Place of Rejection. The Spartans began military training about the age of 7, where they would enter the agoge system for the education and training—everything from physical training such as hunting and dancing, to emotional and spiritual training. At that age they would have to go through what was known as the gauntlet. They would have to run around a group of older children, who would flog them continually with whips, sometimes to death. As they were lightly clothed, and had no bedding to speak of, children would often put thistles in their pallet because the prickling sensation made them feel warmer. On leaving the agoge they would be sorted into groups, whereupon some sent into the countryside with nothing and forced to survive on their skills and cunning; this was called the krypteia, believed to be an initiation rite to seek out and kill Helots who were considered to be troublesome to the state, or were found to be wandering the countryside with no good reason."

This is violence towards their own small children. As far as I can discover, Sparta was always known as a violent war state- it never had particularly high principles, learning, or any sense of- for lack of a better word- compassion.

Rome grew in violence proportionally as it grew in decadence- but the Roman ideal was one of justice and a "Roman Peace". Obviously though, after it had become an Empire and was ruled by degenerate men like Nero, you had a lot of problems (especially with the religious persecutions and assasination of members of opposing state factions), but on the whole, extremely violent and cruel behavior was isolated to particular generals/emperors/etc.

btw I've read some of Thucydides- what's your point, Stradivarius?

[prometheus]

Rome celebrated violence and they enjoyed it.


Sparta just used it as a tool for becoming a good citizen, a good greek in their own Strange way.
They did boring floggings. And not for the fun of inflicting pain but for the fun of receiving pain.

If a legionary made a small error they were put to death. Rome enjoyed violence on a massive scale, unheard of before and after. Gladiator games were enormously popular. I never heard of something similar in Sparta. They did not seem to enjoy violence or war.

[Mozartian]

Ah true, the Gladiator games were horrible- but this was in Rome's decline, for sure. I tend to think of Rome in its earlier days rather than the corrupted empire.

[ail]

I think we should always be careful when speaking about the old cultures. We have been very polluted by all the films made in the 20th century and in this, surely the Roman culture suffers a lot more than the Greek, which has always been overshadowed by the other. Just as an example, ask someone the names of the Gods of Love, War and the King of Gods in classic pantheons: chances are they will say Roman names. And by the way, we even have a TV-series where 'Hercules' goes along with Zeus, Aries and all other Greek names..... safe that Hercules is the roman version of Heracles. Got it?

That said, I'd also be very careful regarding admiration for Roman culture. That is an empire that has been many times admired and immitated, and two striking examples are the Napoleonic France and the United States. There are too many things in the US today that seem inspired in the Roman Empire: the Eagle, the Senate, the Capitol, the admiration for strength and violence as worthy aspects and justified means to solve problems and even the notion of a 'pax americana' to be imposed somewhere, that sometimes crops up and is nothing but an allusion to the 'pax romana'.

As such, I say that the Roman bad traits may have been very laundered in the states.

From what I've read, it's hard to find a period in Rome, even before the empire, when there were no strikes against the ruler, and no attempts to kill them, and when I try to think of a period when I'd like to have lived there, and Roman history lasts for more than 1000 years, I'm at a loss to find one. Really, no one seemed particularly good. Whereas I could easily have lived in Pericles' time.
Of course, that is just an opinion.

As for the wars between Athens and Sparta, the Peloponese wars, they were different warring city-states, therefore, different independent entities. But they shared a notion of culture: language, myths and habits, so much so that when Persia invaded, they still found some kinship against the invader as Greeks. In a way, they are similar to the Celts, who were also divided in different independent clans with similar cultures but who, on the other hand, never got to unite against a common foe and, for that reason, were defeated.

The Greeks, at least, defeated the Persians. It's true that some key concepts developed in Athens, but it expanded outwards, and there are many philosophers and mathematicians from that time that do not come from Athens. Actually, the greatest ones are always associated to other cities: Thales of Mileto, Pitagoras of Samos, Archimedes from Syracuse, Eudoxus from Cnido, and so forth, and so forth. And remember they had a notion of being only one, for they coined the term Pan-Helenic to acknowledge all peoples of Greek culture.

Finally, please, Athens and Sparta are NOT colonies of anyone. They are the founders. THEY created colonies, along with other Greek cities, in Asia Minor and Italy. Those other cities are the ones that must be called colonies, not the original settlers.

Oh, and for Greek culture, I do think the best book to read is Paideia by Werner Jaeger. I once read about 100 pages from it.... a staggering 7% of the total.

Alex

[living_stradivarius]

btw I've read some of Thucydides- what's your point, Stradivarius?

It was to accompany your post. His writings support your point.

[living_stradivarius]

I think we should always be careful when speaking about the old cultures. We have been very polluted by all the films made in the 20th century and in this, surely the Roman culture suffers a lot more than the Greek, which has always been overshadowed by the other. Just as an example, ask someone the names of the Gods of Love, War and the King of Gods in classic pantheons: chances are they will say Roman names. And by the way, we even have a TV-series where 'Hercules' goes along with Zeus, Aries and all other Greek names..... safe that Hercules is the roman version of Heracles. Got it?

That said, I'd also be very careful regarding admiration for Roman culture. That is an empire that has been many times admired and immitated, and two striking examples are the Napoleonic France and the United States. There are too many things in the US today that seem inspired in the Roman Empire: the Eagle, the Senate, the Capitol, the admiration for strength and violence as worthy aspects and justified means to solve problems and even the notion of a 'pax americana' to be imposed somewhere, that sometimes crops up and is nothing but an allusion to the 'pax romana'.

As such, I say that the Roman bad traits may have been very laundered in the states.

From what I've read, it's hard to find a period in Rome, even before the empire, when there were no strikes against the ruler, and no attempts to kill them, and when I try to think of a period when I'd like to have lived there, and Roman history lasts for more than 1000 years, I'm at a loss to find one. Really, no one seemed particularly good. Whereas I could easily have lived in Pericles' time.
Of course, that is just an opinion.

As for the wars between Athens and Sparta, the Peloponese wars, they were different warring city-states, therefore, different independent entities. But they shared a notion of culture: language, myths and habits, so much so that when Persia invaded, they still found some kinship against the invader as Greeks. In a way, they are similar to the Celts, who were also divided in different independent clans with similar cultures but who, on the other hand, never got to unite against a common foe and, for that reason, were defeated.

The Greeks, at least, defeated the Persians. It's true that some key concepts developed in Athens, but it expanded outwards, and there are many philosophers and mathematicians from that time that do not come from Athens. Actually, the greatest ones are always associated to other cities: Thales of Mileto, Pitagoras of Samos, Archimedes from Syracuse, Eudoxus from Cnido, and so forth, and so forth. And remember they had a notion of being only one, for they coined the term Pan-Helenic to acknowledge all peoples of Greek culture.

Finally, please, Athens and Sparta are NOT colonies of anyone. They are the founders. THEY created colonies, along with other Greek cities, in Asia Minor and Italy. Those other cities are the ones that must be called colonies, not the original settlers.

Oh, and for Greek culture, I do think the best book to read is Paideia by Werner Jaeger. I once read about 100 pages from it.... a staggering 7% of the total.

Alex

Time to get off ps and Hit the books fellas.

[soliloquy]

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