Harpsichords

[mikey6]

I was always under the impression that harpsichord's were devoid of being able to change colour on the same note - you play it, that's the sound you get.  Then as expressive purposes, articulation, rhythm nuances and such came into play.
One of my teachers commented on this, that the sound of a harpsichord is influenced by the type of touch employed.
I is confused.

[ramibarniv]

One of my teachers commented on this, that the sound of a harpsichord is influenced by the type of touch employed.

Never heard of anything like that.
Perhaps you misunderstood the teacher...
If not, perhaps ask for more explanation and elaboration on the subject.
Best,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[m]

I was always under the impression that harpsichord's were devoid of being able to change colour on the same note - you play it, that's the sound you get.  Then as expressive purposes, articulation, rhythm nuances and such came into play.
One of my teachers commented on this, that the sound of a harpsichord is influenced by the type of touch employed.
I is confused.

Maybe you mean clavichord?

[mikey6]

Nope, in my essay I state that when writing for a harpsichord, there is no possibility of a change of colour.
The comment on this is "The sonority of a Harpsichord is influenced by the type of touch employed".
They're written comments.  May have to inquire.

[m]

Nope, in my essay I state that when writing for a harpsichord, there is no possibility of a change of colour.
The comment on this is "The sonority of a Harpsichord is influenced by the type of touch employed".
They're written comments.  May have to inquire.

Sorry, I meant that the teacher might mean clavichord. Your statement is correct.

Best, M

[richard black]

Yes, the sonority of a harspichord is certainly influenced by the type of touch employed but just as with the piano there's far more to it than the loudness of an individual note. That is, in fact, pretty much impossible to vary at all on any harpsichord. But how you spread chords has a big effect on the overall sound - that and the articulation.

[mikey6]

ok, so the sonorities of the harpsichord are affected by how it's played. 
So in terms of varying colour, the way we do it on the piano (arm weight, finger energy etc.)  will have no effect if transfered to harpsichord?
Trying to separate touch from colour from sonorities is rather difficult!

[ramibarniv]

Yes, the sonority of a harspichord is certainly influenced by the type of touch employed but just as with the piano there's far more to it than the loudness of an individual note. That is, in fact, pretty much impossible to vary at all on any harpsichord. But how you spread chords has a big effect on the overall sound - that and the articulation.

I don't know what you're talking about.
No type of touch can do anything for the sonority of the harpsichord.
No matter what you do, touch-wise, it is going to sound the same.
Harpsichord keys are not touch sensitive.
How you spread chords and articulation are not touch and have nothing to do with touch.
Touch has nothing to do with harpsichord playing.
Best,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[mikey6]

I don't know what you're talking about.
No type of touch can do anything for the sonority of the harpsichord.
No matter what you do, touch-wise, it is going to sound the same.
Harpsichord keys are not touch sensitive.
How you spread chords and articulation are not touch and have nothing to do with touch.
Touch has nothing to do with harpsichord playing.
Best,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

Question then - how would you define touch?

[ramibarniv]

Question then - how would you define touch?

The speed in which the finger makes the key go down - the feature which gave piano its name: fortepiano.
Touch is also how deep you press the key.
Those things do not exist in Harpsichord and do not effect the sound, as you originally wrote:
"harpsichords were devoid of being able to change colour on the same note - you play it, that's the sound you get."
Best,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[richard black]

I don't know what you're talking about.

Like I said:

But how you spread chords has a big effect on the overall sound - that and the articulation.

Just like on the piano. How you play an individual note on the piano has no effect apart from volume (well, OK, on any keyboard instrument there's the 'extraneous' sound made by the body of the instrument - actually that's generally a slightly bigger effect on the harpsichord than on the piano). All this stuff about 'arm weight' etc. etc. is largely irrelevant on the piano too if you're talking about just one note at a time.

[ramibarniv]

Like I said:
Just like on the piano. How you play an individual note on the piano has no effect apart from volume ...

But that volume effect is not possible on the Harpsichord, not with an individual note not with any chords, not with anything. You can not control the volume with your touch. touch has no effect in Harpsichord playing.

. All this stuff about 'arm weight' etc. etc. is largely irrelevant on the piano too if you're talking about just one note at a time.

1) Not true. Arm weight is very relevant on the piano when you play even one note, or one note at the time.
2) Relevant or not, it doesn't change the fact that the harpsichord keyboard is not touch sensitive.
Best,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[richard black]

Arm weight is very relevant on the piano when you play even one note, or one note at the time.

If that is true on a piano, it _must_ be true on a harpsichord, you realise....

[fizzy]

But changing arm weight/pressure on harpsichord keys _doesn't_ change the sound, with the possible exception of making the rebound clunk. I think mikey was right in his original post, and I don't understand your arguments, richard.

The harpsichord and piano have very different mechanics, one with a responsive attack speed and one with a static attack speed. No matter how gently or hard you press a harpsichord key, the volume and sound are going to be the same.

[ramibarniv]

If that is true on a piano, it _must_ be true on a harpsichord, you realise....

No, I don't.
Please read fizzy's explanation.cheers,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[richard black]

OK, so explain to me how arm weight or any other kind of approach to the key has an effect on the sound of a single note on the piano and I'll explain back to you why it's the same on the harpsichord. Yes, I _know_ the loudness of a single note on the harpsichord is not variable. I've played harpischords on and off for 25 years!

[ramibarniv]

OK, so explain to me how arm weight or any other kind of approach to the key has an effect on the sound of a single note on the piano and I'll explain back to you why it's the same on the harpsichord. Yes, I _know_ the loudness of a single note on the harpsichord is not variable. I've played harpischords on and off for 25 years!

I don't understand what you are arguing here.
You do agree that "the loudness of a single note on the harpsichord is not variable".
Therefore, no matter how you are going to hit that note, it wouldn't make any difference.
End of discussion, subject closed.
---
Now, if you want to discuss piano playing techniques, it is a different subject.
The way you hit a note on the piano makes a difference and directly effects the sound of it.
Piano keys are sensitive to and respond to the speed of being depressed.
"Arm weight or any other kind of approach" make the speed in which the key is being depressed, thus directly effecting the sound.
Best,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[richard black]

"Arm weight or any other kind of approach" make the speed in which the key is being depressed, thus directly effecting the sound.

So you could hit the note with the handle of an umbrella, as Grainger argued, and assuming the key went down at the same speed it would sound the same as if you used a finger with arm weight, finger weight or any other kind of approach or attack, yes?

[fizzy]

If you could control the umbrella with the same precision as your fingers, than I bet it would sound the same.

It seems that you are talking more about the TONE of the instrument, not the volume, which we all agree can't be changed on a harpsichord. As far as I understand it, tone is HOW the note sounds - harsh, round, full, pointed - no matter what the volume is. Very subtle differences, certainly, but I can hear the difference when my teacher demonstrates something. (And hopefully I can create those differences in my playing!)

On a piano, you vary the tone by varying your arm/finger weight. On a harpsichord I don't believe the tone can be changed except by the different mechanical stops. You might be able to create the illusion of tone changing by the articulation, separation and timing, but it's just an illusion.

[ramibarniv]

So you could hit the note with the handle of an umbrella, as Grainger argued, and assuming the key went down at the same speed it would sound the same as if you used a finger with arm weight, finger weight or any other kind of approach or attack, yes?

Yes, exactly.
The only difference will be the added sound of the umbrella handle hitting the key surface.
If you do it from touching the key, both sounds (using finger and umbrella handle) will be identical.
Cheers,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[ramibarniv]

It seems that you are talking more about the TONE of the instrument, not the volume, which we all agree can't be changed on a harpsichord. As far as I understand it, tone is HOW the note sounds - harsh, round, full, pointed - no matter what the volume is. Very subtle differences, certainly, but I can hear the difference when my teacher demonstrates something. (And hopefully I can create those differences in my playing!)

Playing a single note on the piano, there's no TONE and/or any other "fancy" words. There's only volume. Playing a single note, non of the things you mention (harsh, round, full, pointed) exist, only volume.

All these "fancy" words start to happen between the notes, with the connection and relations between the notes.  How long we keep the key down, how we connect or not to the next one, how we balance the notes in a chord and other combination of notes and passages, how we phrase things, making cresc. and dim. etc.

On a piano, you vary the tone by varying your arm/finger weight...

1) See above about TONE.
2) Not only arm/finger weight. There's also the possibility of an attack which doesn't necessarily use arm/finger weight, and there's also an attack with more than the natural weight of the arm/finger.
Best,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[richard black]

Yes, I agree with Fizzy, one can alter the sound of one note on the piano - a little - depending on the approach to it and the difference is in the noise of the finger hitting the key, the key hitting the key bed, etc. These things happen on a harpsichord too!

But basically I think you're being too limited in what you call 'touch'. To the extent it includes articulation, especially of chords, one can indeed vary the tone of a harpsichord. Maybe not by much; but the simple fact that different harpsichordists have their own sound pretty much proves the point.

[ramibarniv]

...basically I think you're being too limited in what you call 'touch'. To the extent it includes articulation, especially of chords, one can indeed vary the tone of a harpsichord. Maybe not by much; but the simple fact that different harpsichordists have their own sound pretty much proves the point.

There's nothing touch wise one can do with a chord on a harpsichord, but play all the notes in it. You can't voice it and you can't change the one volume it'll give you, no matter who plays it.
The only thing one can do is play it not together with some variations of how fast it's being rolled, or which direction it's being rolled, or which order of the notes in the chord it would be.
If you add or subtract notes, it would sound different too.
If you play the same chord together, it will always sound the same, no matter who plays it.
The simple fact (I have to take your word for it) that different harpsichordists have their own sound proves nothing, as no doubt you are not comparing them playing on the same instrument in the same place, environment and time, or being recorded on the same instrument, in the same place, by the same recording engineers, with the same equipment, etc.
Cheers,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[nick]

I don't know what you're talking about.
No type of touch can do anything for the sonority of the harpsichord.
No matter what you do, touch-wise, it is going to sound the same.
Harpsichord keys are not touch sensitive.
How you spread chords and articulation are not touch and have nothing to do with touch.
Touch has nothing to do with harpsichord playing.
Best,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

I agree, and enjoyed your performance on youtube! A side question of mine is do you play passages at as fast as accurately possible repeats when working on speed, or at a moderate speed and occassionaly at the fastest speed. Different pianist work it differently, and I think with different effects. What say you?

Nick

[ramibarniv]

I agree, and enjoyed your performance on youtube! A side question of mine is do you play passages at as fast as accurately possible repeats when working on speed, or at a moderate speed and occassionaly at the fastest speed. Different pianist work it differently, and I think with different effects. What say you?
Nick

Thanks, Nick, for the good words.
I don't work on speed and I also don't worry about it. I just learn a piece and when I know it, I play it at whatever speed I decide is fitting.
When I practice a piece I know, I usually do it under tempo and also somewhat under dymanics.
Regards,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[pianowolfi]

The umbrella theory. One of my favorite thinking subjects. Yes. Mechanically it is true. We have actually no influence on the quality of the sound of a single note. And I am the first person who would be happy about new invented pianos that allow us to have a more DIRECT influence on the sound like a string instrument player has. I used to play the cello earlier in my life and I can assure you that I miss so much the possibility to extend ONE SINGLE NOTE endlessly while permanently changing the quality and intensity and colour. ARGH!! You can just meditate on ONE SINGLE NOTE!! But why not do the same on the piano? I think I can do it sometimes. There are psychological factors and you can use the pedal in many different ways, and I even think that our thoughts have a direct influence on how we play. STILL we have a LOT of influence. For instance if you think that a long note moves on and develops after you have pressed the key makes a big difference. It's all in the mind. There are still so many intangibilities.....

[nick]

Thanks, Nick, for the good words.
I don't work on speed and I also don't worry about it. I just learn a piece and when I know it, I play it at whatever speed I decide is fitting.
When I practice a piece I know, I usually do it under tempo and also somewhat under dymanics.
Regards,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

I too, and I think the clarity is the result, as well as accuracy. If I play too often at the fastest tempo, besides wearing me out physically, tension develops. One other question if you don't mind. I noticed on one post of yours you train students with an exercise to put both curved pinkies together and press. This must be for strength, but if one plays with weight transference from finger to finger, I would think that would develop all the strengh one would need. Is this for the beginners to develop the correct feeling of what muscles are at work? Any thoughts shared would be enjoyed. Thanks

Nick

[ramibarniv]

... One other question if you don't mind. I noticed on one post of yours you train students with an exercise to put both curved pinkies together and press. This must be for strength, but if one plays with weight transference from finger to finger, I would think that would develop all the strengh one would need. Is this for the beginners to develop the correct feeling of what muscles are at work? Any thoughts shared would be enjoyed. Thanks
Nick

You must be mistaking me for someone else.
No post of mine had what you are writing here.
Regards,
Rami

[nick]

You must be mistaking me for someone else.
No post of mine had what you are writing here.
Regards,
Rami

It said from Ramibarniv

Just today I wrote this on my own Egroup...:
Here are some exercises and they must be done gently and with extreme caution:
1) Put on a table surface 5 curved fingers like in a nice playing position and make like a spider push-ups.
2) Wrestling fingers: Curved RH 5 vs. LH 5, tip cushion to tip cushion.
3) Cherrios: Form the number zero with thumb and pinky (tip to tip) and press gently to the count of 8 and then rest for the count of 8. Hand separately!
4) At the keyboard, or on a table: hold down all 5 fingers, curved in a nice hand position and play the pinky slowly moving it up as high as you can and down with a slight tap onto the key.
hope this helps.
Best wishes,
Rami (Who's giving a concert and a master class in the DC area Feb 24-25)
rrpcrrpc@yahoo.com

Sure thought it was you. Wonder who else this could be?

Nick

[ramibarniv]

Here are some exercises and they must be done gently and with extreme caution:
1) Put on a table surface 5 curved fingers like in a nice playing position and make like a spider push-ups.
2) Wrestling fingers: Curved RH 5 vs. LH 5, tip cushion to tip cushion.

Sure thought it was you. Wonder who else this could be?
Nick

Yes, that was from me.
1) I forgot (must be the age...)
2) It was not something I teach in general and to everyone, it was an answer to a specific request for help.
3) You threw me off describing my exercise as you did: "put both curved pinkies together and press." I am not sure you understood the exercise, it is not how you described it and I have no way of explaining it better without drawing it or plain showing it, which I don't know how to do here. Perhaps if I omit the word tip and just say cushion to cushion, like chains, not pressing towards each other, but trying to pull away while curved.... I give up....
Anyway what you described would not be bad either, but everything as I said in that original post: must be done gently and with extreme caution.

This must be for strength, but if one plays with weight transference from finger to finger, I would think that would develop all the strength one would need. Is this for the beginners to develop the correct feeling of what muscles are at work?

Yes, it is for young beginners, or anyone else who has noodles for finger. not everyone needs it, as piano playing alone would do it for most people.
Fingers need to be strong like pillars to be able to hold the weight of the hand/forearm/arm and more when you use more power than just the weight.
Cheers,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[nick]

Yes, that was from me.
1) I forgot (must be the age...)
2) It was not something I teach in general and to everyone, it was an answer to a specific request for help.
3) You threw me off describing my exercise as you did: "put both curved pinkies together and press." I am not sure you understood the exercise, it is not how you described it and I have no way of explaining it better without drawing it or plain showing it, which I don't know how to do here. Perhaps if I omit the word tip and just say cushion to cushion, like chains, not pressing towards each other, but trying to pull away while curved.... I give up....
Anyway what you described would not be bad either, but everything as I said in that original post: must be done gently and with extreme caution.

Yes, it is for young beginners, or anyone else who has noodles for finger. not everyone needs it, as piano playing alone would do it for most people.
Fingers need to be strong like pillars to be able to hold the weight of the hand/forearm/arm and more when you use more power than just the weight.
Cheers,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

Thanks Rami for the clarification. In the not so recent past I experimented with not using weight for tone production and realized the lack of volume in my playing was too much for me to live with. I like your description of the fingers " like pillars". yes.

Thanks again.

Nick

[ramibarniv]

Thanks Rami for the clarification. In the not so recent past I experimented with not using weight for tone production and realized the lack of volume in my playing was too much for me to live with. I like your description of the fingers " like pillars". yes.
Thanks again.
Nick

My pleasure.
Regards,
Rami