Playing the piano orchestrally

[guermantes]

Hi !

I was wondering how other teachers go about teaching their students how to think and play the piano orchestrally.

Thanks for your feedback,
Guermantes

[Kassaa]

While I am not a teacher, I think I learned a lot from listening to orchestral music, and going to concerts. When you listen to an orchestra you'll really hear what's possible in tone color and expression. Also analysing piano music in a way you divide the piece in violin parts, celli, woodwinds etc helps, but you must know first what those instruments are and how they sound. For that you can have your pupils listen to other instruments and chamber music.

A solo piece which in my opinion perfectly resembles an orchestra + soloist is Bach's Italian Concerto, you can really divide the different instruments and the soloist there, so you might use that as an example.

[Bob]

What do you mean by 'orchestrally?'


I have had teachers describe piano music as orchestral when the parts are independent -- a crescendo in one part while the other is doing something totally different.  Or piano music imitating other instrument -- like a trumpet fanfare.

Maybe just think of what instrument or section would have that part of the piano music -- if it's  light, it could be "feathered" like a violin on the piano.

Or orchestral could mean to think lyrically.

[guermantes]

Hi there !

Thank you for the replies to my above question. To clarify what I mean by “orchestrally” :

Aside from deciding how to conduct any particular voice (soprano, bass or intermediate) individually, there comes a time when you have to decide how to balance the sonorities of all the voices together. Usually preference is given to the highest voice, then the bass and then the intermediate voices. There are times when you may want to bring a particular detail into the ear of the listener that is not in the predominant voice, so you momentarily soften it to allow the other voice to sing out more clearly.

This makes me think of a quote from conductor and musician Gunther Schuller : It seems that it rarely occurs to conductors and their apologists, if it is a question of balance or dynamics, to occasionally make the other parts play softer.

I suppose it is the same idea as when in a fugue there is a new entry which requires the softening of all the other voices in order for it to be perceived. How do you teach this to your students ? Do you use any particular examples to build up to a fully fledged “orchestrated” piece of music in the classic or romantic repertoire or even before attempting a full-blown fugue ?
Choosing the details worthy of coming into the limelight seems also to be an art in itself…
How do you go about forging the sophisticated tools on the piano to make the orchestral interpretation possible ?
Thank you in advance for your thoughts.
Guermantes

[pianistimo]

perhaps more choices are available when the composer doesn't write all the indications into the music.  with orchestral scores - you have very precise directions for dynamics/speed/interpretation - for each part (most of the time).  with piano music, it seems lik e you are on your own.

i see the advantage of what kassaa has said about attending orchestral concerts at a young age.  but, to me, that is not enough.  i think there should be a class which introduces all the orchestral instruments to a young musician.  so they can hear, see the clef that the instrument uses, find out how it is played, and develop a tonal memory for that type of sound.  also, to see how a conductor uses his interpretive skills.  to hear a piece played several ways.  this is what a piano teacher should show a student.  some of the ways may be against the composer's wishes and one or two for (showing what sounds bad and what sounds good). 

also, don't you think it would be cool for a student to do some arranging just to find out what a piece of piano music would sound like - scored for certain instruments.  when you hear different voices of instruments - you can hear the parts more distinctly than when they all have the same sound (as with piano).  once you develop this 'imagination' - then you can try to reconvert it back to piano.

[pianistimo]

i just re-read what you said about the 'voices' and their entries.  agreed about teaching students to quiet the other voices.  do you think that hearing a choral group that is sensitive would be helpful.

sometimes different choral groups actually sing bach's instrumental works with the words 'ba ba' or whatever and you get a better sense of the voicing that way, too.

hmm.  you could write a book on this topic very easily.  tell us more about what you think.

as i see it - we are striving for a piece to have continuity.  not to be choppy or noticeably broken up into little 'sections.'  to flow smoothly.  to have a climax. #1 prepare the listener  #2 entertain the listener #3 bring them to the ending with an understanding that this was a prepared interpretation and not random chance.

i used to mark all my bach fugue voices with different colored pencils.  i was surprised to learn (when younger) that some of the voices crossed each other.

here is an interesting article on transcriptions for piano and how to 'choose instruments.'
https://appca.anu.edu.au/Part%201/Logan%20-%20Thinking%20Orchestrally.pdf

[pianistimo]

too bad students have to wait so long to play with an orchestra.  basically, until they perform a piano concerto.  the ideas of playing WITH an orchestra provide enormous resources of sound.  the piano has to listen to the instruments playing the lead-in's - and blend with them as best as possible.

now, what if...orchestra sounds were made available to very young pianists - and they were given a little clip of anything from twinkle twinkle - to the farmer in the dell - and they had to imitate the sound of the flute or the harp or whatever after the orchestra played.  i think that would be great creative fun.  a sort of concerto for young people.

this would be entirely possible when putting an electronic piano in with an acoustic.  you play whatever sounds are available to you so the student can hear 'the strings' or the 'the horns' or voices.  but, better yet - to have two to three instrumentalists in the neighborhood come over and bring their instruments.

[Bob]

i think there should be a class which introduces all the orchestral instruments to a young musician.

...also, to see how a conductor uses his interpretive skills. to hear a piece played several ways.

Ahem... general music.  Grade school.  It's supposed to be being done now.

[a-sharp]

I'm certain this is not what you meant, but it's ironic to see this post today - with one of my students [he's 8], I was commenting on how one of his hands was "parked" on the piano with his wrist sunk and 'resting' on the wood part below the keys during a measure or 2 of rests ... and I just thought it better that had was either more 'awake', or resting in his lap... in his case, I figured awake and in place, prepared to play ... and i said 'sort of like a band member - make sure he's not asleep while the other guys are playing" LOL ...

Again - not what you were referring to, but I thought it funny enough to mention. It's after midnight, what can I say.

[pianistimo]

then pianists should have no trouble playing or thinking orchestrally.  yet, many do.  there must be more to it.  i think it is listening to the instruments up close.  and, finding ways to improve one's 'pallette' of sound - instinctively knowing which parts would go to what instruments.

that is why i find that article about transcriptions interesting.  to actually transcribe something for piano or visa-versa (from piano to orchestra) takes some active thinking.  perhaps students would be challenged to do this?  and to study what has already been transcribed for piano. 

using pizzicato, or legato (bowed sounds) - and knowing how to bring out counterpoint (arranging the importance of the voices) is mentioned in that article.  and, yet, there are many things to thinking orchestrally.  balance might be one.

[timothy42b]

Ahem... general music.  Grade school.  It's supposed to be being done now.

Yes.  However, it is not, and that is the reason parents send their kids to piano lessons.

Unfortunately what they think they are getting is not what piano teachers think they are supposed to teach. 

[a-sharp]

The thing that comes to mind at the moment, is maybe [when talking to young children], talking about how, in a group of people, if everyone talks all at once, nobody can hear anyone... maybe make a reference to [gasp] popular music - or something else they are familiar with [I'm not sure most children would understand what an orchestra was] - even, sports - not everyone can have the ball - so, team members pass it around ... find something they can relate to. It's such an important aspect of music - and one we work on forever, it seems ...

don't know if this helps or not ~ ?

[guermantes]

Thank you for all the thoughts and suggestions on the topic of playing the piano orchestrally.

I have looked closely at the article “thinking orchestrally” by Logan at the link Piantissimo gave in his reply 5. Very interesting. The suggestion of transcribing orchestral music on the piano sounds like a good idea. It does presuppose previous knowledge of the various C-clefs and transposing instruments which is no mean feat in itself. Should anyone wish to give this a try, rather than start on the subject of Logan’s article (Frank Martin’s Etude for 2 Pianos), it might be more fun to have a look at something like Tchaikovsky’s Nutcracker suite. The orchestral score is available for free at : https://partitions.metronimo.com/Suite_de_Casse_Noisette%2C_Op__71a-723.html or try
https://www.lespartitions.info/gratuites/piotr-ilitch-tchaikovski-rwicomp-17.html.
There exist several versions of some of the suite on the piano that might serve to compare with your own efforts. Try  https://www.rowy.net/frByComposer16f05e0c991c9fd240d60ac209b3ba44.html.

There are also available many duets on the piano of orchestral scores ranging from Brahm’s Hungarian Dances, Grieg’s Peer Gynt, Ravel’s Mother Goose, and so on to arrangements of symphonies of Beethoven for the more advanced. A duet might be a way of introducing the orchestral version of the same music to students who might not otherwise be listening to orchestral music.

For anyone who wishes to learn the different clefs used by transposing instruments, there is a very good book available where you learn by heart to recognize 4 strategic notes spread out over the staff and then by learning to read the notes directly above and below them or at a distance of a third, you finally acquire mastery. The method is useful for interested adolescents or adults but obviously not for very young beginners. The book is published in French but the note reading exercises do not require knowledge of the language and the progression is extremely well planned. The book is called Manuel Pratique pour l’étude des clés sol fa ut by Georges Dandelot, Editions Max Eschig. There exist 2 versions of the book, the original and the revised, both available at the music store. I would advise avoiding the revised edition, at least initially. The original version saves a lot of time and effort.

For anyone who wishes to hone their ears by learning to recognize visually and aurally musical intervals, there is a very good 3 book series where each interval is approached first from a sensorial basis, then from graphic representation on the staff, then from systematic practice and finally from improvisation and repertoire. The method once again is useful for interested adolescents or adults but obviously not for very young beginners. It is published in French but the exercises do not require knowledge of the language to learn. It is called Lire la Musique par la Connaissance des Intervalles by Marie Claude Arbaretaz published by Chappell. Once the exercices have been gone through and studied by piano students on their instrument, they can be redone to learn to hear the intervals with the timbre of other musical instruments.

It is possible these books exist in English translation.

The Compleat Conductor by Gunther Schiller might make good reading for anyone interested in a conductor’s point of view. I suggest a visit to Tim Reynish’s site which discusses score study for conducting at www.timreynish.com/score_study.htm. There is an interesting article by Scott Price on piano transcription at https://www.music.sc.edu/ea/keyboard/PPF/2.2/2.2.PPFe.html. These are just a few of many possibilities.

I find the preface that Ralph Kirkpatrick wrote to his edition of 60 sonatas by Scarlatti published by  Schirmer very enlightening. He has written in 10 pages a condensed version which represents a credo for any musician,  pianist or otherwise. “A performer must be able to marshal the spontaneity of his sensations into a consistent ordered performance which he can produce at any time and under any circumstances. To this end, he must sense what elements of a piece are fixed and unchangeable in their relationship to each other, what is basic syntax and structure, and what is mere rhetorical inflection, what can be improvised and altered from performance to performance. Only by this security in relation to basic musical elements can he achieve true freedom and spontaneity in performance. The ability to make departures depends on a thorough knowledge of what one is departing from.” He then deals with : Fingering, Technical Problems, Ornamentation, Phrasing, Melodic Inflection, Harmonic Inflection, Tempo and rhythm, dynamics and finally Expressive Character. What is really revealing is his last sentence in the preface : “If I have been able to answer for myself the questions in the preceding pages, is it surprising that I need to ask very few questions concerning expressive character ?”

Charles Rosen in his book Piano Notes, the Hidden World of the Pianist published  in paperback by Penguin writes : “To a greater extent than any other instrumentalist the pianist enters into the full polyphonic texture of the music”. And “The danger of the piano and its glory, is that the pianist can feel the music with his whole body without having to listen to it.”   

Food for thought ?

Kind regards,
Guermantes

[pianistimo]

i liked everything but the charles rosen quote.  charles rosen makes me ill.  i'm sorry - but does he play the piano?  anyways - i think he means well. 

you have a lot of good stuff there.  it will take some time to digest it - but you know what!  it always makes for more interesting piano lessons.  not very many students are given challenges (come back next week with 8 bars of this piece with colored pencils indicating which instruments you would pick for those parts - parenthesis around phrase lengths - etc etc - from the conducting ideas).  a teacher could help, too, by actually using a digital piano to show how the students choices of instruments would sound. 

there's some program that a community college had that allowed you to pick your instruments and have them all play at the same time.  probably notion - or some such program.

[march05]

i think listening to emil gilels and then another pianist play the same piece will highlight what's playing orchestrally means...