is a grand piano really necessary

[danny elfboy]

I'm still confused about whether a grand piano is necessary to develop great technique and become a concertist.
What is confusing is the contradictions in everything I have read about the subjects.

First of all I've read lot of posts where someone claimed how technique improved a lot after switching to a grand. Then again posts of people claiming that an upright limit your playing because there's worse action and less sound nuances. The again teachers that says "above grade 6 switch to a grand"

Reading this one may believe that uprights are for beginner or amateurs but that grand piano of high quality are absolutely vital for professional pianists and for graduating.

This concept sounds so "modern" because we have definitely more resources, money and bigger houses nowadays. But we tend to forget that some of the pianists from the golden age didn't have enough money to practice on good quality and big instruments.
Just 70 years ago there were pianists that practiced on very old and unproperly tuned instruments, pianists that reached virtuoso levels practicing on spinets and again pianists that graduated and become concertists without ever upgrading to a grand.

Lostinidlewonder is a concert pianist and member of piano street. He practiced at advanced level on bad quality upright and electronic keyboards. I guess there are more examples we can think of.

My question is: given that the action of a grand piano is better and faster and the sound allows more nuances but that many people nevertheless had been graduated with virtuoso pieces on upright pianos and became concert pianist while practicing on just uprights (and not even good quality) isn't the belief that a big grand is necessary (rather than a facultative advantage) to become a good pianist a product of this modern middle-class mentality that doesn't remember when the world produced great pianists but most of them lived in crowded 40 mq apartments and had hardly the money to buy uprights?

[gutenberg]

Hi Danny,

I assume from your question, and your prior thread a few months ago, that you are asking in the abstract and that you are not in the market for a piano. I recently bought an upright and i have a few thoughts on the subject.

Unless you have the money (imo around 20k+), and have plenty of room, a grand of 6' + is the way to go for bass and action. Otherwise, it is a personal matter and can't be answered objectively or abstractly. The time-honored advice of trying everything to see what appeals applies whether you are comparing more expensive grands or comparing uprights and grands. In my opinion, you cannot generalize and say the action of a baby grand will be superior.

In my less lofty price range of under approx. 15k, I tried a lot of grand and upright pianos, new and used. Of course, the amount of preparation is always crucial, but I still found certain uprights who's action appealed more than certain grands. While I don't play too shabby, I have a ways to go before I cannot do what I want to do on an upright.

I am demanding with what I want out of an action in evenness of touch and sound, but I am even more demanding in want I want in the way of tone that appeals to me.

Someone on some thread once said that, above all, they wanted a piano that could inspire them to want to play and practice. I think that says it all, whether its a grand or an upright.

[quantum]

I was in the last year of a Bachelors degree when I finally upgraded to a grand.  Before that I played on a small upright.  My family just couldn't afford a grand until we finally came across this wonderful used Yamaha C3 at a price we could cope with. 

Up to that point, I knew my playing level had surpassed the ability of my small upright.  I hated staying late nights at school just to practice on a grand and have the sensation of more depth of sound, sophistication of tone, and added nuance. 

I pushed forward on my upright seeking to fully exploit all possibilities of sound through improvisation.  I knew these sounds would not be ideal for use in the standard repertoire, but it gave me a lesson with experimentation and exploration that I will not forget.  If one has limited facilities, one will do the most to make use of and squeeze out every last possible ounce of usability with one's tools.  I learned how to adapt advanced repertoire and adjust my playing ability on inferior instruments.  In the end it made me even more sensitive and observant to the abilities and characteristics of any piano I come across.

Playing on an inferior instrument will give you more appreciation of the possibilities on a wonderful grand.  I don't think it is necessary to say an advanced artist needs to practice on an upright - this would be like taking 2 steps back in order to go forward 1 step - but the experience is greatly valuable.  That said, I think there is also the necessity for a advanced pianists to play and experience a grand and it's sound. 

[frederic chopin]

I would say that it is not necessary to have a grand to develop your technique to become a concert pianist. As you have mentioned, some great composers and pianists in the past did not own grand pianos. As long as you have access to one to play on occasionally, then that is good enough. If you have a grand that you can play on daily, then it is a bonus. 

The important thing is that you are aware of the limitations and possibilities of the instrument you are playing, be it an upright or a grand, and that you have the flexibility to adapt to whatever instrument you are provided (for a concert etc) and bring out the best musical effects from it, regardless of its condition. This is what you will face when you go on concert tours - unless you are the sort of pianist who brings his grand piano along... 

[electrodoc]

It is difficult to beat the quality and subtlety of a GOOD grand piano. The degree of espression and the feel of the action are different. Having said that, a good upright is better than an inferior grand. The problem is that a good instrument (grand or upright costs good money. We all have to go with what we can afford.
My advice, for what it is worth, is to get the best instrument that you can reasonably afford whether it be grand or upright. Take your time and find the right instrument for you and then search out all of the nuances of that instrument.

Best of luck.

Electrodoc

[amelialw]

I only got a old 60 year old Heinzman piano after I moved to canada before that i played on a Yamaha Upright that kept on going out of tune . Now, I have a Kawai Grand at home that I got just 2 years ago when we bought out house, and the previous owner sold us the piano as well. Well, I would reccomend a grand piano to a high grade student, but it is not a necessity. I practised on that Yamaha for 14&a half years of my life and I feel that people who play on more ordinary/basic pianos for a long time are the ones who can really make a piano (no matter what state it is in) still make the piano actually sound good.

[desordre]

 Dear Danny:
 About the improvement due to day-to-day practice on a grand I can tell you nothing: I don't have one. However, your thread make me think about something.
 The principal and fundamental question is the sound you can produce. That is what all about, isn't it? And a house never have a place where you can obtain a great sound, specially when you put a Grand in it, and it's half the space available. To me, that don't make any sense. A grand needs a very large room to respond, otherwise it will be like drinking a very good wine in a glass made of sponge. An upright will fit the sound space more likely, and the result is better.
 This leads us to a related question: the action of the piano, and the development of fingers. About that, there is no doubt that the best the keyboard, the most you can do. But you don't need a grand to keep this. There are great uprights out there, and many have best response and action than the average grand.
 Best wishes!
 

[wishful thinker]

A grand isn't an essential, but a good grand (modern, 6ft plus) is going to be much easier to play and get the best in terms of sound from.

It sort of like motor cars.  A 1960s Ford will work and get you from A to B, and so will a new Rolls Royce.  Which is going to be the best to drive and to ride?  No contest.

That said, you will never get a first class result from an old, cheap, or worn out upright, or grand for that matter.

I replaced my modern upright with an old (though good) grand, and that with a modern Yamaha C3.  I can go to places on the C3 that would not have been possible on the upright (simply because of the tonal limitations of the upright).  The C3 is also much more reliable in terms of its action than the old grand (inevitable because of improvements in design).

I recently played a Steinway D (full concert) and was blown away by it.  If I had a spare £80k, I'd have it tomorrow.    But then there'd be nothing to look forward to 

[tradge]

A grand isn't an essential, but a good grand (modern, 6ft plus) is going to be much easier to play and get the best in terms of sound from.

It sort of like motor cars.  A 1960s Ford will work and get you from A to B, and so will a new Rolls Royce.  Which is going to be the best to drive and to ride?  No contest.

That said, you will never get a first class result from an old, cheap, or worn out upright, or grand for that matter.

I replaced my modern upright with an old (though good) grand, and that with a modern Yamaha C3.  I can go to places on the C3 that would not have been possible on the upright (simply because of the tonal limitations of the upright).  The C3 is also much more reliable in terms of its action than the old grand (inevitable because of improvements in design).

I recently played a Steinway D (full concert) and was blown away by it.  If I had a spare £80k, I'd have it tomorrow.    But then there'd be nothing to look forward to 

Oh how I would KILL for a Steinway D!! I was playing a Steinway all of yesterday afternoon (t'was either a C or D) and it's the most orgasmic thing I've ever laid hands on! The sound just makes me want to jizz my pants!

[desordre]

Oh how I would KILL for a Steinway D!!
(...)

Dear Tradge:
 I'm in! Just tell me when. 
 Best!
 

[alzado]

I think your question oversimplifies.

I've played on some premium quality uprights that are very nice indeed.

Not every grand is all that nice to play on.

Some categorical statements can be made.  For instance, I have found that grands generally allow you to control dynamics much better by touch alone, without the need to go to the una corda pedal.

Good luck-----------

[richard black]

I have found that grands generally allow you to control dynamics much better by touch alone, without the need to go to the una corda pedal.

That strikes me as kinda perverse, given the una corda on a grand is more of a tonal than a dynamic device. On an upright its more of a device for screwing up the touch with almost no discernible effect on the sound.

I prefer learning pieces new to me on an upright. Apart from anything else the desk is more conveniently positioned.

[ramseytheii]

That strikes me as kinda perverse, given the una corda on a grand is more of a tonal than a dynamic device. On an upright its more of a device for screwing up the touch with almost no discernible effect on the sound.

Bravo!  Someone had to say it.  Also I have yet to find an upright piano where the middle pedal works.  Why do they even bother to include it?  Or does it do something I'm unaware of?

Walter Ramsey

[andyd]

 
In my experience, the middle pedal on an upright tends to be a Celeste pedal (it drops down a piece of felt between the hammers and strings) that allows practice at a much lower volume.  It's fitted to my newish Bluthner B and works well in terms of volume reduction, but ruins the touch.

I'd say the touch/action on my Bluthner is very good, and IMO good enough to take anyone to a high level of technique.

The una corda is now a special option on a few premium brands' uprights.  I don't remember ever seeing an upright with an una corda fitted.

Regards

Andy

[daniloperusina]

You must be a romantic, they way you talk about old pianists practicing on out-of-tune and broken pianos in small apartmentes they had to share with AT LEAST ten other families!:-)

Chopin composed his Preludes on ...an upright! It's still there, on Mallorca.

Anyway, grands differ hugely from one another, as do uprights. But if you are thinking about these things, you should know what's actually different:
* On a grand you play against gravity when pressing the key;
   on an upright you play against the force of a spring.
*On a grand, the una corda shifts the mechanics so that the hammers strike two instead of three strings for each note in the treble;
on an upright it moves the hammer assembly further towards the strings, and causes an unwanted lost motion.
-In both cases, the aim is to create a softer sound.
* The middle pedal on a grand (only a few are fitted with one) is to sustain only selected notes; on an upright it is as Andy says, pulls down a mute ("practice" mute, not to disturb neighbours!)

The original construction of the piano was like a grand, later, during the 19th century, they invented the upright as a clever solution to people with limited space; thus, a piano you could simply put against the wall. Similarly, the "baby grand" was another attempt at increasing the sales, nobody built any such in the beginning.

I think the greatest limit to an upright is the una corda (where did you get the idea that they are disappearing?), which is something you cannot really use as originally intended, due to the lost motion.

Otherwise, on a well regulated upright you'll be just as able to practise trills, pianissimo, staccato, legato, any pianistic technique you can think of. But, mind you, well regulated it must be!! Same for a grand, by the way...

To follow your logic the other way, would imply that at the end you'll need a Steinway D to practice on, to learn how to play on a Steinway D.
Which is what most rich and famous concert-pianists end up buying, of course...

[andyd]

Quote:
"*On a grand, the una corda shifts the mechanics so that the hammers strike two instead of three strings for each note in the treble; on an upright it moves the hammer assembly further towards the strings, and causes an unwanted lost motion." Quote.


What you describe is the usual upright 'soft' or 'half-blow' pedal.  However a true 'una corda' is available, as is a 'sostenuto' pedal(which I also have never seen on an upright).   

A quick search found this:
https://www.uk-piano.org/pianos-for-sale-trade/detail.php?siteid=3004


Regards

Andy

[richard black]

Also I have yet to find an upright piano where the middle pedal works.  Why do they even bother to include it?  Or does it do something I'm unaware of?

On the very few uprights I've played where a sostenuto is fitted, it is so crudely made that it makes the touch practically unmanageable when it's operated. A bit disappointing, given how conceptually simple it is to design and fit, especially on a tall upright.

[soliloquy]

If you ever want to crush somebody with a piano I would consider it necessary, as they are much more likely to survive being crushed by an upright, and they usually try to get you in trouble if they live =/

[daniloperusina]

"..However a true 'una corda' is available, as is a 'sostenuto' pedal(which I also have never seen on an upright)..."

You are absolutely right! I've found the una-corda pedal most frequently on 19th century uprights, with over-dampers and straight strung. Not shure why they stopped implementing the una-corda. Is there any manufacturer who still does?
I can't make out if that ad is a new or old piano.

Of course, the name una-corda comes from early 19th century, when there actually was a pedal that shifted from 3 (or 4) strings to 1. Name survived, pedal didn't!

I've never heard the name "half-blow" pedal before. Is it a valid name?

Noteworthy here is of course, that whenever the indication "una-corda" is written in a score, it's our modern left-pedal we use (another name!).

Cheers  

[daniloperusina]

"..If you ever want to crush somebody.."

Well, actually a baby grand weighs less than a full-size upright! So, could be a crucial miscalculation...

[pagesong]

hi
  well i dont think above grade 6 is necessary... my teacher said above grade 9...
and i think you should probably get a grand if your repertoires require techniques and pedaling and everthing...  basically, if you are an advanced player it would be better to get a grand...

p.s. a baby grand is also okay.

[wishful thinker]

My grand has a sostenuto, but I never use it.  What is the point? It actually is rather odd to use as it must be depressed after the note is struck, and if you learn a piece by using it and then are confronted with a piano that doesn't have it, your stuck.

And I never use the unicorda either - dynamics are all in the touch 

[andyd]

Yes, half blow is a term I've seen used.
I think Bechstein and Bluthner may do extra pedals if you ask.  If Toyo can do it, why not anyone! 
(As I remember, the una corda is more difficult to fit on an upright because the hammer angles makes it necessary to have an extremely accurate shift to miss only one string.)

Incidentally. the Stuart & Sons grands have a sof/half blow pedal as well as an una corda;  and a sostenuto and a sustain.  (Four pedals to play with .  Sigh, if only.)
They don't have a celeste pedal, but I understand some grands have been fitted with a celeste e.g. it was mentioned elsewhere that Steinway can do a lever operated one.

Regards

Andy

[daniloperusina]

"And I never use the unicorda either - dynamics are all in the touch"
Una corda, maybe you just slipped on the letters:), meaning 'one string', which explains the idea. It get's softer, but more importantly, it changes the colour of the sound. And it's this, the change of colours, that makes it so interesting! Listen to any recordings with Horowitz, Brendel or Schiff, and see how they use it.
But others of course don't, like Rudolf Serkin, who said 'by principle I don't use the una corda in Beethoven'.
Anyway, you like or you don't, but it's not a dynamic pedal.

"..the una corda is more difficult to fit on an upright.."
The ones I've seen were straight-strung 19th century overdamper pianos. With overdampers, just as in grands, you can shift the action without moving the dampers. The modern underdampers are fixed in the action, so they would follow the action when shifted to the side. I try to imagine that the angles of strings and hammers should cause a problem, but since baby-grands have quite sharp angles too...

Interesting about Stuart&Sons, I'll check them out!

Danilo

[richard black]

My grand has a sostenuto, but I never use it.  What is the point?

I find it very useful, but of course you have to be prepared to do without it since many pianos don't have it. I was using it just today in the vocal score of 'Evgenii Onegin', playing on an 1894 Steinway - I didn't know Steinway was fitting the sostenuto that long ago until I looked up the piano's serial number! Turns out they patented it in 1874. Not many composers have ever written explicitly for it, but sometimes it turns up in unlikely places - for example Halsey Stevens' Trumpet Sonata. Busoni was a big fan, Grainger too (used it very cleverly in the 'Rosenkavalier Ramble').

[ahinton]

Stuart & Sons are not, I believe, the only piano manufacturer to make a grand with four pedals (although I can't for the life of me remember now who else has done it - possibly Fazioli, but I'm not certain); the problem with this configuration is that any pianist who makes full appropriate use of the sostenuto and una corda pedals has in effect from time to time to work out a kind of "pedalling score" indicating which foot does what in certain passages where all three of the conventional pedals might be involved, so the inclusion of a fourth one will likely render certain such solutions impossible. Even Joseph Banowetz, in his otherwise excellent book on pedalling, does not address this issue fully; in fact, one of the few pianists who has ever given it serious though is almost certainly Ronald Stevenson.

Richard Black makes some very good points. What must be remembered, however, is that all too few pianists have sufficient knowledge of the how, when and why of una corda pedal use (there's a passage in Godowsky somewhere, for example, that is marked una corda yet the prescribed dynamic is f) and the vast majority of pianists eschew the sostenuto pedal altogether, despite its having been around for more than 130 years - even the great, late lamented Ronald Smith once told me that he used it only in playing piano transcriptions of organ works!

"Soliloquy" seems to be the only contributor to this thread who has seen it as an opportunity to discuss crushing people with pianos (which seems to be a gross waste of pianos, but there...); in an attempt to satisfy his apparent desires in this direction, might I recommend the Rubenstein grand as the instrument best suited for such a purpose? (provided that sufficient funds are available, of course)...

Best,

Alistair

[andyd]

Alistair,

The Fazioli 308 has a fourth, half blow type pedal.
https://www.fazioli.com/eng/quarto_pedale.php

I've never played on a 308, though have tried most other sizes in new or used.

I have played both sizes made by Stuart... coping with personal reorientation due to extra keys in both bass and treble is the first step, fumbling over the four pedals follows.  Still, I felt it was easy to adapt.

Regards

Andy