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Chopin's Scherzo no. 3 (Read 5999 times)

Offline nocturnelover

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Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
« on: April 28, 2007, 02:55:59 AM »
Hello!
I was wondering what rating people would give this piece in terms of how difficult it is, I saw a video on youtube with Martha Argerich playing this piece



I have never seen anything like it, seriously, even Rubenstein said it was the most demanding piece he plays, I want to know what are the odds of you being able to play it even close to the level that she can play it?

piano sheet music of Scherzo 3


Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #1 on: April 28, 2007, 09:10:25 AM »
It actually is very demanding, especially the p downward runs in the B section and the ending. But i personally found the second Scherzo at least as hard and demanding. All of the Scherzos are. The odds of me playing it close to that level? Forget it for now :P Though I have one critique on her playing: the p runs are too roughly and too loudly played in my book.

 In the octaves she is perfect and very clear. And the ending is stunningly even and very brilliant.

Offline opus10no2

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #2 on: April 28, 2007, 11:02:28 AM »
Hello!
I was wondering what rating people would give this piece in terms of how difficult it is, I saw a video on youtube with Martha Argerich playing this piece



I have never seen anything like it, seriously, even Rubenstein said it was the most demanding piece he plays, I want to know what are the odds of you being able to play it even close to the level that she can play it?

Technically, the demands of a piece like this depend upon the tempo you take it at.
Playing it like Martha does makes it considerably demanding, but I fail to see why Rubinstein would say such a thing, considering he did play the Etudes also.

Taking into consideration every facet of difficulty, performing *this* piece, like *this*, is probably the most difficult thing I've ever seen done on piano -

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Offline imbetter

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #3 on: April 28, 2007, 11:14:44 AM »
i personally think this is easier than the other 3 scherzos because its pretty much repition.

playing the downward runs clearly and brilliantly is defiantly a task, this piece also requires a solid octave technique. That coda is also very taxing.
"My advice to young musicians: Quit music! There is no choice. It has to be a calling, and even if it is and you think there's a choice, there is no choice"-Vladimir Feltsman

Offline thalberg

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #4 on: April 29, 2007, 06:11:58 AM »
I don't know.....the most demanding piece he plays?  No way!!

I've played it completely up to tempo.  It's not that bad.....I dunno maybe I'm a freak.  I thought Prokofiev 7th sonata was way harder.  Or Liszt Sonata.

I had a hard time figuring out how to get the fast sections to sound really clear.  The descending soft parts you're talking about were really hard at first, but once you get them they're not so bad.   Technically, you definitely need octave technique, but if you have that, the piece is fine.

Offline sevencircles

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #5 on: April 29, 2007, 08:44:14 AM »
Quote
Taking into consideration every facet of difficulty, performing *this* piece, like *this*, is probably the most difficult thing I've ever seen done on piano -


I find his triple-etude based on Chopin even more demanding and I think he does so too since he plays it sloppier.

Libetta playing "Ignis Fatuus" impressed me a whole lot too. It is just 1.40 long but will take ages too learn for most people

The hardest works caught on tape are obviously the modern things like for instance Finissy, Xenakis and Sorabji

Haven´t found any super videorecording on the net though. Anyone got any videos of Powell playing Sorabji for instance or Ian Pace?

Offline opus10no2

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #6 on: April 29, 2007, 01:17:52 PM »
I find his triple-etude based on Chopin even more demanding and I think he does so too since he plays it sloppier.

It's demanding in a different way, and the 'husum' recording isn't exactly sloppy.

The hardest works caught on tape are obviously the modern things like for instance Finissy, Xenakis and Sorabji

Theoretically, in a way, but using pieces like these and calling them hardest in an 'absolute' way is completely impractical.

Pace doesn't have anywhere near the technical facility of Hamelin in his prime, and yet he 'plays' Finnissy etc.

If any difficulty comparisons must be made, state a piece AND performance standard/tempo.
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Offline sevencircles

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #7 on: April 29, 2007, 02:08:13 PM »
Quote
Theoretically, in a way, but using pieces like these and calling them hardest in an 'absolute' way is completely impractical.

Pace doesn't have anywhere near the technical facility of Hamelin in his prime, and yet he 'plays' Finnissy etc.

If any difficulty comparisons must be made, state a piece AND performance standard/tempo

This is propably true.  Seems like I would´t like to hear Ian Pace play the toughest pieces he got on his extremely long repertoire list . Playing things that are obviously way too difficult for your technical level sounds  :-X

Quote
It's demanding in a different way, and the 'husum' recording isn't exactly sloppy.

I thought about this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhgOh8mmefQ

Offline nocturnelover

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #8 on: April 29, 2007, 02:08:36 PM »
With the octaves being so flawless how hard is it exactly to play octaves at that kind of speed, if you were to take all necessary preparations? Is it a matter of technique or does it surpass tehcnique and become a matter of virtuosity, whether or not you have a freak ability to play that fast (in her tempo)?

Offline cygnusdei

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #9 on: May 05, 2007, 10:54:04 AM »
Has anyone noticed the similarity of the 'chorale' section to that in the finale of Mendelssohn Piano Trio no. 2?

Offline elevateme_returns

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #10 on: May 06, 2007, 08:54:06 PM »
franzliszt2 s a scherzo 3 specialist lol
elevateme's joke of the week:
If John Terry was a Spartan, the movie 300 would have been called "1."

Offline rob47

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Offline franzliszt2

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #12 on: May 09, 2007, 11:32:02 PM »
Hardest thing about this piece is the desending figures in the slow sections. To get those perfect and  voice them well is hard. Octave passages etc are easy, coda will take about 1 day to learn to full speed. I found the memory a nasty thing for some bizzare reason. I went through a period of performing this  piece a lot, and I had some very weird memory slips even though I was certain it was secure.

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #13 on: May 09, 2007, 11:57:42 PM »
Hardest thing about this piece is the desending figures in the slow sections.To get those perfect and  voice them well is hard.
I agree here
Quote
  Octave passages etc are easy, coda will take about 1 day to learn to full speed.
but what the h... this took me quite a while, i won't say how long :P

Offline soliloquy

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #14 on: May 10, 2007, 12:58:42 AM »
Haven´t found any super videorecording on the net though. Anyone got any videos of Powell playing Sorabji for instance or Ian Pace?

There's a video of Powell playing OC- very hard to get though.  Also, a couple videos of Pace are out there, but again, very difficult to obtain.  There is a video of Ian Pace playing Dusapin Etudes 1/4 and part of the Dusapin Piano Concerto "A Quia" that are not so hard to get ahold of though.  I could give that to you but not the Powell or other Pace unless you have something enormously special to trade.

And as far as Hamelin vs. Pace technique, such a statement is ludicrous.  There are only a couple pieces that have been recorded by both Pace and Hamelin, and they are so opposing in interpretation it is impossible to judge by them, although Pace is able to play Alkan's "Comme le Vent" at marked tempo, something Hamelin can not, but this is of course not a piece that is very broad in its technical requirements.  If pressed, I would have to guess that Pace has the suprior technique, due to the fact that Hamelin can be seen missing notes in fairly simple passages, and Ian Pace can not be seen missing notes in extremely difficult, complex and dense passages on the video of the Dusapin Etudes.  If Hamelin is ever so inspired to record some Finnissy or Xenakis then obviously we would be better equipped to compare their techniques though.  As a final note in this subject, Hamelin has been quoted as saying that he would prefer to leave the works of Sorabji to more fit and younger pianists, while Pace has been quoted saying that Sorabji does not present any enormous challenge to him.

Offline houseofblackleaves

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #15 on: May 10, 2007, 03:12:08 AM »
This video is amazing, I still think that Argerich is the best interpreter of this peice.  Ever.

But I think that her recording from that one live CD is by far the best recorded version of this Scherzo ever... so beautiful.


Offline opus10no2

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #16 on: May 10, 2007, 03:55:23 AM »
There's a video of Powell playing OC- very hard to get though.  Also, a couple videos of Pace are out there, but again, very difficult to obtain.  There is a video of Ian Pace playing Dusapin Etudes 1/4 and part of the Dusapin Piano Concerto "A Quia" that are not so hard to get ahold of though.  I could give that to you but not the Powell or other Pace unless you have something enormously special to trade.

And as far as Hamelin vs. Pace technique, such a statement is ludicrous.  There are only a couple pieces that have been recorded by both Pace and Hamelin, and they are so opposing in interpretation it is impossible to judge by them, although Pace is able to play Alkan's "Comme le Vent" at marked tempo, something Hamelin can not, but this is of course not a piece that is very broad in its technical requirements.  If pressed, I would have to guess that Pace has the suprior technique, due to the fact that Hamelin can be seen missing notes in fairly simple passages, and Ian Pace can not be seen missing notes in extremely difficult, complex and dense passages on the video of the Dusapin Etudes.  If Hamelin is ever so inspired to record some Finnissy or Xenakis then obviously we would be better equipped to compare their techniques though.  As a final note in this subject, Hamelin has been quoted as saying that he would prefer to leave the works of Sorabji to more fit and younger pianists, while Pace has been quoted saying that Sorabji does not present any enormous challenge to him.

Pace is so full of bull it's not even funny anymore.

OK, yes it is still funny.
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Offline soliloquy

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #17 on: May 10, 2007, 04:33:50 AM »
Pace is so full of bull it's not even funny anymore.


In what way?

Offline opus10no2

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #18 on: May 10, 2007, 04:41:33 AM »
From every orifice. Expore them, you'll enjoy it.
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Offline soliloquy

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #19 on: May 10, 2007, 07:18:57 AM »
From every orifice. Expore them, you'll enjoy it.

No, really.  Can you give a meaningful or even slightly-meaningful answer to this question/

Offline ahinton

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #20 on: May 10, 2007, 08:00:16 AM »
Pace has been quoted saying that Sorabji does not present any enormous challenge to him.
For the proper significance of such a statement (if indeed it has actually been made and with serious intent) to be appreciated, it is first necessary to bear in mind that music which one doesn't actually play is unlikely to present any challenges at all. Ian Pace has never performed a single work by Sorabji; in fact, anyone browsing that very long repertoire list may well notice that Sorabji is just about the only major piano composer not featured on it. As this is the case, it's no wonder that Sorabji "does not present any enormous challenge to him"; wouldn't you agree?

Best,

Alistair
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Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline sevencircles

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #21 on: May 10, 2007, 08:32:54 AM »
Quote
There's a video of Powell playing OC- very hard to get though.  Also, a couple videos of Pace are out there, but again, very difficult to obtain.

Recordings of him playing all of OC?

Are the recordings pro quality?

Where can you find them? Anyone here got them?

Offline mephisto

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #22 on: May 10, 2007, 03:17:16 PM »
Pace is so full of bull it's not even funny anymore.

OK, yes it is still funny.

It is interesting to notice what pace himself sais about the most difficult pieces out there is similair to what you say. He mentions pieces such as Godowsky etudes and paraphrases together with Liszt's Grandes Etudes and opera-transcriptions. And NOT pieces by Finnissy etc, saying that the difficulty is of a very different type, and they can therefor not be compared. He also explaines why he hasn't learned more Chopin/Godowsky etudes:

'(I)only (play)a couple of the Chopin's(in the Godowsky arrangement)), I'm not really a masochist!'

Paranteses by me.


Offline opus10no2

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #23 on: May 10, 2007, 03:25:55 PM »
HAHA interesting.

It would appear from that he has the requisite brain powah but not the requisite DEX.

Which would make zkep'z comme-at-tempo claim mo then a BIT questionable.
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Offline soliloquy

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #24 on: May 10, 2007, 11:44:56 PM »
HAHA interesting.

It would appear from that he has the requisite brain powah but not the requisite DEX.

Which would make zkep'z comme-at-tempo claim mo then a BIT questionable.

You're more than welcome to ask him yourself.


ian@ianpace.com


'(I)only (play)a couple of the Chopin's(in the Godowsky arrangement)), I'm not really a masochist!'

Paranteses by me.

I am having difficulty finding this quotation.  Not to sound incredulous, but such a statement would be very contradicting to the sort of things he usually says.  Source?

Offline soliloquy

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #25 on: May 10, 2007, 11:49:05 PM »
For the proper significance of such a statement (if indeed it has actually been made and with serious intent) to be appreciated, it is first necessary to bear in mind that music which one doesn't actually play is unlikely to present any challenges at all. Ian Pace has never performed a single work by Sorabji; in fact, anyone browsing that very long repertoire list may well notice that Sorabji is just about the only major piano composer not featured on it. As this is the case, it's no wonder that Sorabji "does not present any enormous challenge to him"; wouldn't you agree?

Best,

Alistair


I'm not sure if one can classify Sorabji as a "major" composer at the moment, although in 10-20 years this might be debatable.  Now now, let's not fall down the slippery slope of semanticism, Terry.  I'm sure anyone can look at a piece of music and often effectively judge what level of technical difficulty it would present to him/her, and I'm sure most, if not all, pianists have played or worked on or dabbled in pieces that they have not performed.  On a side note, there are some other names that are conspicuous by their absense such as Boucourechliev, Murail, Ginastera, Harrison, Corigliano, Vine, Shchedrin, Wuorinen, Mosolov and Roslavets, to name a few.

Offline ahinton

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #26 on: May 11, 2007, 04:14:44 AM »

I'm not sure if one can classify Sorabji as a "major" composer at the moment, although in 10-20 years this might be debatable.
What can nevertheless be said with justification is that Sorabji has contributed an enourmously large amount of challenging piano music to the reportoire in the last century, yet it remains the case that Ian Pace has performed not one note of it.

On a side note, there are some other names that are conspicuous by their absense such as Boucourechliev, Murail, Ginastera, Harrison, Corigliano, Vine, Shchedrin, Wuorinen, Mosolov and Roslavets, to name a few.
Fair comment - and the absence of the names Murail, Mosolov and Roslavets is perhaps the more surprising - although, for what it may be worth in the present context, Sorabji probably wrote more piano music than all of them put together...

The point I am making is that, as Ian Pace is well known in certain circles for performing a substantial quantity of complex and technically challenging piano music, the total absence of Sorabji from his repertoire list might be said to stand out abit...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline mephisto

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #27 on: May 11, 2007, 12:06:18 PM »

I am having difficulty finding this quotation.  Not to sound incredulous, but such a statement would be very contradicting to the sort of things he usually says.  Source?

http://r3ok.myforum365.com/index.php?topic=696.30

 :D

Offline soliloquy

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #28 on: May 11, 2007, 08:56:08 PM »
http://r3ok.myforum365.com/index.php?topic=696.30

 :D



Ah I try to stay out of that forum; it sort of comes across as a forum for musically inspired mental masturbation, with very few people speaking who know what they're talking about.  Not to say I don't occasionally partake in such verbally sexual exercises, but I don't think I could possibly live with myself if I started posting there 8)


On the subject of what Ian Pace says about Sorabji, I have to agree with what he is saying, TO THE DEGREE that often the density and lack of obvious structural direction sometimes obscures the "mysticism" of his music, but I also think that Pace is either looking for the wrong thing in Sorabji, or simply has made up his mind to despise his music.  I do wonder what his thoughts are on some of his earlier works such as Quasi-Habanera and Sonata No. 1 that I believe would better fit what Ian is apparently not finding in the works of Sorabji he cites.



Randomly, a verbal spar between Ian Pace and Alistair Hinton would possibly be the single most ingenious CG ever put upon a piano forum, possibly even topping DA JACKZON.

Offline mephisto

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #29 on: May 12, 2007, 07:22:08 AM »
I don't hang at that forum either, I just found that topic by chance.

Offline ahinton

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #30 on: May 14, 2007, 05:34:33 AM »
On the subject of what Ian Pace says about Sorabji, I have to agree with what he is saying, TO THE DEGREE that often the density and lack of obvious structural direction sometimes obscures the "mysticism" of his music, but I also think that Pace is either looking for the wrong thing in Sorabji, or simply has made up his mind to despise his music.  I do wonder what his thoughts are on some of his earlier works such as Quasi-Habanera and Sonata No. 1 that I believe would better fit what Ian is apparently not finding in the works of Sorabji he cites.
I wasn't going to get into this but feel that I don't really have a whole lot of option now but to make at least some remarks on this matter.

Frankly, having read Ian Pace's posts about and around Sorabji as well as some private messages from him on the same subject, the suggestions that you make above - both that he is "looking for the wrong thing in Sorabji's music" and that he has "simply made up his mind to despise" it - are just about right. I can tell you that the contempt that he has expressed for Sorabji's work extends pretty well right across its range, with almost no exceptions. If you have read much of Pace on Sorabji, you will have encountered a wholly disproportionate amount of material that is about politics, gender studies, sexuality and the like that comes across (not only to me, by any means) as just so much rabid posturing and I and many others simply cannot figure out what he's talking about in terms of how it supposedly relates to Sorabji's compositional motivations or indeed the music that resulted from them; the music is apparently replete with, for example, "extreme right-wing", anti-feminine and "emotionless" characteristics; well, no two pairs of ears are the same as any other two, that's for sure, but quite how he concludes any such thing about any music at all, let alone Sorabji's, is quite beyond me.

Randomly, a verbal spar between Ian Pace and Alistair Hinton would possibly be the single most ingenious CG ever put upon a piano forum
I'll ignore the use of that largely meaningless term "randomly" but caution you not to hold your breath. Ian Pace undoubtedly has a very considerable intellect and writes from time to time most intelligently and engagingly about a number of matters; his recent contributions about the music of Chopin and Brahms are among examples of this. Clearly, however, he and I disagree diametrically about Sorabji. The principal difference that strikes me about his stances on Chopin / Brahms and Sorabji is that what he writes on the former is well-researched, well-considered, though-provoking and, above all, comprehensible, whereas his tirades on the latter come across as much more simply conceived, intentionally offensive rantings that inevitably tell us less than nothing about Sorabji and more than some of us might want to read about Ian Pace.

There are also times when it seems to me that Ian Pace's frequent recourse to the wide range of literary sources with which he is familiar somehow call to mind Alexander Pope's couplet
The bookful blockhead, ignorantly read,
With loads of learned lumber in his head
.
Now I am not for a moment suggesting that Ian Pace is ignorant - very far from it, in fact; what does strike me, however, is that there are times when his voracious reading appetite spills over into personal posturings that might arguably be seen to illustrate the kind of person of whom Sorabji wrote in his first letter to me, i.e. an intellectual whose sheer intellectuality risks revealing someone educated above his intelligence. When Ian Pace writes as he does about Sorabji, dragging politics, gender and other issues into what passes for his arguments, he lets himself down rather badly, I fear and, in so doing, passes himself off as such a person, at least for the duration of his rant at any given moment. I should add, for the sake of due balance, that Ian Pace's remarks about these matters in relation to music are at least consistent rather than earmarked specially for reference to Sorabji, even if they do have a habit of going off the rails. He and I have engaged in dialogue about such things outside the realms of Sorabji and his music, although on such occasions he has sometimes tended to try to bring Sorabji back into the arena of that more general discussion; he and I have agreed to disagree on such things and I do know for a fact that others have done likewise.

I would far rather read what Ian Pace might have to say about the thread topic here, to which return is surely well overdue!

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline jlh

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #31 on: May 14, 2007, 05:49:22 AM »
Hello!
I was wondering what rating people would give this piece in terms of how difficult it is, I saw a video on youtube with Martha Argerich playing this piece



I have never seen anything like it, seriously, even Rubenstein said it was the most demanding piece he plays, I want to know what are the odds of you being able to play it even close to the level that she can play it?

Here's Rubenstein playing this, if you're interested in watching:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7QwJj6ghkM
. ROFL : ROFL:LOL:ROFL : ROFL '
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Offline nocturnelover

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Re: Chopin's Scherzo no. 3
«Reply #32 on: May 20, 2007, 06:36:47 AM »
Yes I have seen his interpretation of this piece though he plays it flawlessly I still think that Argerich's interpretation is far superior!