Chromatic scale fingering

[psaiko]

Hi

I was wondering if one should stick to one fingerering for chromatic scales or use different ones depending on the velocity. Here is the fingering I have used so far (RH, starting with C, going up):

13131231234123

I think this works fine at both high and low speed, but I am worried that shifting the thumb so often will create a barrier at extremely high speed. What is your experience with this? Should I keep perfecting cromatics with this fingering, or develop an alternative to be used at extremely high speed.

Thanks

[ramibarniv]

Hi

I was wondering if one should stick to one fingerering for chromatic scales or use different ones depending on the velocity. Here is the fingering I have used so far (RH, starting with C, going up):

13131231234123

I think this works fine at both high and low speed, but I am worried that shifting the thumb so often will create a barrier at extremely high speed. What is your experience with this? Should I keep perfecting cromatics with this fingering, or develop an alternative to be used at extremely high speed.

Thanks

Your notion that different fingering would serve different purposes is a very good one.
The most basic standard fingering is, from C RH going up: 13131231313123.
This fingering is good for a very articulated passage.
For the fastest but not that articulated chromatic scale use this. For convenience of explanation start on E RH going up (LH on C going down): 123123412345.
Your fingering above is something in between, or a combination of the fastest and the most articulated.
So, according to your needs and the music needs, you can play around with these fingerings.
Cheers,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[robertp]

It's really personal, a function of your hand and the piece. And there's no one right solution.

For example, in Mendelssohn Op. 14 I use for RH:
123451231234

But in he Chopin B minor Scherzo I use for RH:
2341231234123

For practicing chromatic scales apart from a piece, I alternate between the various fingerings (per, for example, Cooke).

[ail]

I usually stick with the standard that has been stated above, but I tend to begin on B so that I can begin with 123.
Then, it changes with the piece. I'm very fond of doing 1234 when I can, and one example is Chopin's Nocturne Op. 72, where there is a chromatic passage with 11 tones, I think, where I do 12341231234 and then an octave on B.

In Für Elise, for example, there is a descending chromatic with the right hand that I do 43213214321321. It really is not applicable in general, as this covers 14 notes and a scale has 12. It just works because of the way the piece is made.

Sorry that I can't go into more details, but I don't remember the score exactly.

Alex

[jlh]

For the fastest but not that articulated chromatic scale use this. For convenience of explanation start on E RH going up (LH on C going down): 123123412345.

This seems logical, though how would this work for more than 12 semitones at a fast speed without an obvious "hiccup" at the end?

[ramibarniv]

Quote from: ramibarniv on April 28, 2007, 06:30:40 PM
For the fastest but not that articulated chromatic scale use this. For convenience of explanation start on E RH going up (LH on C going down): 123123412345.

This seems logical, though how would this work for more than 12 semitones at a fast speed without an obvious "hiccup" at the end?

One needs to be able to do crossing and shifting of fingers 1 and 5 just like any other fingers crossing and shifting.
Passages which give you no alternative fingering but crossing 1-5 already appear in Chopin's music (i.e. the descending passages at the end of prelude #24 where 5 notes repeat in every octave), so it's good to have this little part of technique at hand...
This then also enables you to play 2 octaves of a C major scale with only 2 crossings rather than 3 with fingering 1-5 x 3.
Best,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[jlh]

I'm aware of the need to utilize all forms of crossing in playing passages where this is the best option; however, given that other options in the case of a simple chromatic scale exist which do not require crossing the 1 and 5, and that these other options are in your words "more articulated", why would you make things intentionally more difficult if the end result is less desirable?

Also, I don't understand your example of crossing the 1 over the 5 in the case of multiple octaves of the C Major scale...  Why would you ever want to do this?  Sure you could make a case that you now have fewer crossings and shiftings, but there's no way it's faster than traditional C Major fingering past 1 octave, because in order to keep the pattern the same you would have to do 1-5 + 1-2 and then repeat.   So you then have just as many shiftings of the hand.

I'm not trying to cause trouble over this... I'm just curious what you're thinking.

[ramibarniv]

I'm not trying to cause trouble over this... I'm just curious what you're thinking

No problem.

I'm aware of the need to utilize all forms of crossing in playing passages where this is the best option; however, given that other options in the case of a simple chromatic scale exist which do not require crossing the 1 and 5, and that these other options are in your words "more articulated", why would you make things intentionally more difficult if the end result is less desirable?

1) I don't think crossing/shifting 1-5 is more difficult than other crossings, perhaps somewhat neglected in teaching and practicing, but if practiced like the other crossings, should not be more difficult.
2) As I said, each set of fingering serves a different goal. I would use this fingering for a passage which I don't desire to be that articulated, but I do desire it to be very fast.

Also, I don't understand your example of crossing the 1 over the 5 in the case of multiple octaves of the C Major scale...  Why would you ever want to do this?  Sure you could make a case that you now have fewer crossings and shiftings, but there's no way it's faster than traditional C Major fingering past 1 octave, because in order to keep the pattern the same you would have to do 1-5 + 1-2 and then repeat.   So you then have just as many shiftings of the hand..

I guess I didn't make myself clear enough. I meant only 2 crossings over a 2 octave range of the scale. Use fingers 1-5 consecutively 3 times (You may continue further too).
It is faster then traditional fingering. Again, for speed, rather than articulation. It can come in handy in Prokofiev 4th piano sonata, 3rd move, if you wish to do the scales in one hand.
Best,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[jlh]

I appreciate your clarification. 

[richy321]

More on the 1-5 or 5-1 fingering:  According to Seymour Bernstein, Liszt often used this fingering in fast chromatic scales.  I tried it in Chopin's Winter Wind etude.  It's a descending 2 octave run in the left hand.  It works perfectly in this run because the 5 always occurs on a black key.  Over 2 octaves you have switch to other fingering because the next 5 will be on a white key and your thumb will not be able to get to its note.  It's interesting to try.

Rich Y

[lagin]

From someone who learned to do chromatic scales with only fingers 1 2 and 3, DO 1 2 3 AND 4!!!  It's faster, and I regret not learning it that slightly "harder" way to begin with.