Thirds?

[schnabels_grandson]

Hello all, I have recently been analyzing my playing and I realize that one of my many weak points is playing thirds.  I just can't seem to do them with any kind of speed.  Any help?... Bernhard?

[faulty_damper]

Can you play scales an octave apart very fast?  Do you consider yourself proficient at it?  If yes and you can't play thirds very well:

1.  Playing scales an octave apart and playing thirds are different.  With 8vs, you have conditioned yourself to play with those fingerings together:

C major -
R.H. 1-2-3,1-2-3-4,1-2-3,1-2-3-4
L.H. 5-4-3-2-1,3-2-1-4,3-2-1,3-2

However, with 3rds, the fingering is:
R.H. 3,1-2-3-4,1-2-3,1-2-3-4
L.H. 5-4-3-2-1,3-2-1,4-3-2-1

Notice how none of the fingering of 3rds matches the fingering of 8vs?  Even though the fingering is the same for the same notes with both hands, they aren't the same fingering together.  This would take some time to re-coordinate your fingers to play in this new manner.

2.  Another problem could be that your hand placement may not be the most efficient.  Playing 3rds places your hands close together and they would bump each other as you pass through the notes.  This bumping may push one or both hands out of their most efficient position as you press the keys and thus they would not coordinate.


Lastly, you may just not be good at it because you haven't the practice.  If you play 8v scales proficiently, fast and coordinated, and you try to play 3rds just as fast (keep in mind 1 above), then you haven't the practice at coordinating your new fingering.  If this is the case, which most likely is, then don't play 3rds the way you play 8vs!  You didn't play octaves at the speed you play now when you were first learning them and you shouldn't play 3rds at the speed you play 8vs because you are still learning them.  So practice them slowly with perfect coordination and then speed up only to the point where you are comfortable.  After this speed is comfortable, slowly add more speed until you can play them just as fast as 8vs.



I'm not Bernhard, but I hope this sounds like advice Bernhard would give.  Bernhard, if this sounds like advice you would give, ... I can't finish this sentence in a way that sounds coherent.  Anyway, I didn't even consciously realize that the fingering for thirds and octaves didn't match until I made this post!  I just knew I'm not as great with thirds as I am with octaves.

~faulty Damper.

P.S.  I think I can finish my sentence!  Bernhard, if this sounds like advice you would give, then let me know.  I've been saving some of your posts because they have been really helpful so I don't have to log on and find the post.  I think I may save this post just because:  I didn't know that the fingerings of 3rds and 8vs didn't coordinate.

[schnabels_grandson]

Thank you, but I think I asked the wrong question.  What I meant by "thirds" is playing to thirds together in the same hand.  An example would be Chopin's Op.25 No.6,  in the right hand for the first few measures where the notes alternate between B,D# and C#,E.  Maybe I'm confused about the proper terminology and if so, correct me please.

[faulty_damper]

Oh... okay... so the longest post I've ever made on this forum was...

Then I'm in the same unison as you Ludwig.  I'm sure someone whom is vibration at 440 will tap our strings into tune.

[bernhard]

Lastly, you may just not be good at it because you haven't the practice.  If you play 8v scales proficiently, fast and coordinated, and you try to play 3rds just as fast (keep in mind 1 above), then you haven't the practice at coordinating your new fingering.  If this is the case, which most likely is, then don't play 3rds the way you play 8vs!  You didn't play octaves at the speed you play now when you were first learning them and you shouldn't play 3rds at the speed you play 8vs because you are still learning them.  So practice them slowly with perfect coordination and then speed up only to the point where you are comfortable.  After this speed is comfortable, slowly add more speed until you can play them just as fast as 8vs.

Excellent advice in general, and in particular the bit quoted. It is unbelievalbe how many people fall in this particular trap, of believing that just because they mastered some aspect of technique they can cut corners on a different technique.

Brilliant!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

Hello all, I have recently been analyzing my playing and I realize that one of my many weak points is playing thirds.  I just can't seem to do them with any kind of speed.  Any help?... Bernhard?

The secret to playing double thirds is in the movement: you must play them with your arm, not with your fingers.

The usual mistake is trying to press the keys with the fingers and lifting them high (As misguided Hanon would have you do it). You can get away (albeit clumsily) with this wrong technique when palying scales and runs, but you will not be able to do it (even clumsily) with double thirds or double octaves.

Actually the fingers do not press anything. The arm does all the pressing. All you have to do is to make sure that fingers are firm at the point of contact (and relaxed otherwise) and properly aligned.

Here is how you deal with double thirds:

1.      Put your right hand on the piano with the five fingers over CDEFG. Make sure the fingers are aligned, the wrists, etc. Now with fingers 1-3 you are going to play CE, then 2 – 4 DF and 3-5 EG. Imagine that you have a coin on the back of your hand (go on, put a coin there!), so all that is allowed to move are the fingers.

As you lift 1-3 to play CE, keep the other fingers immobile lightly touching the keys. Then bring 1-3 down and play C-E. Now, as you lift 1-3 from CE, bring 2-4 down to play D-F. Finally bring 3-5 down to play EG as you lift 2-4 from DF. Do this slowly in order to observe what is going on.

This is actually the way I was taught to do this stuff, believe it or not. AND IT IS COMPLETELY WRONG.

No matter how much you practise it this way, you will never be able to play double thirds fluently. You may pretty much give up Chopin’s thirds study (op. 25 no.6). In fact most pianists are terrified of double thirds.

2.      Let us examine what is the problem with the approach above.

First of all, it involves a lot of fingers going up and down. The fingers are not that strong, so very soon you are tired, and if you persist, very soon you get injured.

Second, it is very confusing for the motor centres, since while fingers 1-3 must go up, finger 2-4 must go down, and so on. This is not the kind of co-ordination that you can do smoothly or at speed, and there will be no control of tone whatsoever.

And thirdly (and perhaps most importantly) you have to spend a lot of effort and energy to inhibit all the other muscles who want to join in, in order to have an isolated finger action. And this will completely destroy your natural, intuitive co-ordination of all the components of your playing apparatus (shoulder girdle, upper arm, forearm, hand, fingers).

3.      So, now that you have carefully observed what happens when you simply use the fingers, compare it with the alternative.

This time, start by pressing CE with 1-3.

Now, instead of lifting 1-3, lift the whole forearm (use the biceps and the brachialis – the muscles at the topside of the upper arm). The effort and movement of the forearm will be tiny, since a small displacement at elbow level will cause a major movement at the hand level. Then bring the fingers down, this time 2-4 on DF, by letting the arm drop (not like a dead weight – but in a controlled fashion). Next lift the forearm again (by hinging it at the elbow by using the biceps-brachialis), and let it drop again on 3-5 on GE.

4. The problem you have to solve with this new approach is of a completely different nature. You have to learn how to keep the fingers that are going to hit the keys firm, while the other fingers are relaxed. And you have to learn how to fine-tune your upper arm movement (it is a tiny movement) to move your hand at the extremity accurately. And finally you have to co-ordinate the arm movement with the firming of the appropriate fingers.

Fortunately this is what our bodies are naturally wired to do. This kind of total co-ordination (rather than isolated finger work) is completely natural to humans (and animals). So you can acquire it in no time at all.

So, concentrate on covering distances with your arms, not with fingers.

5. Chopin Etude Op. 10 no. 7 is also excellent to develop this approach, since you cannot play it in any other way. Again, this is not to say that you will be able to learn the study in 10 minutes. After all you have to figure out the notes, you have to memorise it and so on. But the technique to play the whole thing could be completely mastered in 10 minutes simply by working on the first two bars.

6. Finally, octaves, like double thirds cannot be played with fingers. They must be played with arms, the fingers being just the extreme of the apparatus. If you think of a swordsman, the sword has to be an extension of his body. His body moves, the sword moves.

Only beginners and people who are totally ignorant of swordplay try to move the sword itself. The thing is, in swordsmanship, bad swordsmen using the wrong techniques tend to die fast. In piano playing, bad pianists with bad technique tend to become piano teachers!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Hmoll]

Bernhard,

You remind me of a friend of mine. Ask him what time it is, and he tells you how to build a clock.

Question. How does your method of playing thirds apply to the Chopin thirds etude? It seems to me that the thirds are too fast for the up down forearm movement you describe.

[bernhard]

Bernhard,

You remind me of a friend of mine. Ask him what time it is, and he tells you how to build a clock.

Question. How does your method of playing thirds apply to the Chopin thirds etude? It seems to me that the thirds are too fast for the up down forearm movement you describe.

I will try to just tell you the time.

1. Verbal description is a poor substitute for visual demonstration. (And I wish it was my method! I might get some royalties... )

2. In learning a new movement pattern it is useful to make it big. So my description increased the movement range in order to make it clear. As you get the movement more automatic, the way to increase speed is to make it smaller and smaller. In this particular case, you may not even see the forearm moving up an down (it is not the muscles of the forearm that are being used), but you will see some movement in the wrist and in the fingers. But the fingers are not moving. They are being moved.

3. Fingering and proper co-ordination of the whole arm are the keys for this study.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[allchopin]

I would love for you to post a sound file of yourself playing the etude(s).  You know, to back up your instruction .

[Hmoll]

I will try to just tell you the time.

1. Verbal description is a poor substitute for visual demonstration. (And I wish it was my method! I might get some royalties... )

2. In learning a new movement pattern it is useful to make it big. So my description increased the movement range in order to make it clear. As you get the movement more automatic, the way to increase speed is to make it smaller and smaller. In this particular case, you may not even see the forearm moving up an down (it is not the muscles of the forearm that are being used), but you will see some movement in the wrist and in the fingers. But the fingers are not moving. They are being moved.

3. Fingering and proper co-ordination of the whole arm are the keys for this study.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Thanks. Makes sense. I'll give that a try.

[anda]

move your whole arm??? sorry, bernhardt, but i have to disagree - moving your whole arm (if i understand you correctly) seems to me as a too ample move - it's like shooting musqueetos with a shotgun! not to mention consuming time and energy...

i'd say the most important part of the pianistic aparatus in playing thirds is the wrist - it should move in and out, up and down to get the fingers exactly on the next notes to play, leaving the arm just to relieve its weight on the fingers (more or less weight, according to the dynamics).

also, for practice, i would rather suggest chopin op. 25 no. 6 and debussy - etude pour les tierces. and that only after you can play all scales in thirds on both hands (and especially the chromatic scale, it's very used in a lot of works)

[bernhard]

move your whole arm??? sorry, bernhardt, but i have to disagree - moving your whole arm (if i understand you correctly) seems to me as a too ample move - it's like shooting musqueetos with a shotgun! not to mention consuming time and energy...

i'd say the most important part of the pianistic aparatus in playing thirds is the wrist - it should move in and out, up and down to get the fingers exactly on the next notes to play, leaving the arm just to relieve its weight on the fingers (more or less weight, according to the dynamics).

also, for practice, i would rather suggest chopin op. 25 no. 6 and debussy - etude pour les tierces. and that only after you can play all scales in thirds on both hands (and especially the chromatic scale, it's very used in a lot of works)

Er… actually as I said before you don’t have to disagree with me. I think you just enjoy doing it.   In fact I think we pretty much agree. Let us see.

1.      I did not say to move your whole arm. I said you should use the arm muscles to move the forearm up and down (There is no other way, since the muscles that move the forearm up and down are in the upper arm). This was suggested as an alternative to moving the fingers up and down (using the forearm muscles, since the muscles that move the fingers up and down are in the forearm).

2.      If you see my answer to Hmoll, I again said that the movement at speed is anything but ample. In fact the movement is so small as to be sometimes undetectable by an outside observer. The astute pianist however will feel which muscles are being used, and these will be mostly in the upper arm.

3.      The wrist is a hinge. As such it cannot move up and down or in and out. What moves in and out is the arm/forearm, and the wrist must not be rigid in order to accomodate the movement.

4.      Likewise the wrist itself does not move up and down: it is moved up and down by the forearm (in which case the upper arm controls the up and down movement of the forearm that ultimately moves the wrist up and down) or the hand (in which case the muscles that move the hand up and down are in the forearm).

5.      If you are moving the wrist up and down as a single piece with the forearm, (that is, using the upper arm muscles), the wrist must be braced and firmed by the forearm muscles so that forearm/hand/fingers work as a unity.

6.      If you are moving the wrist up and down using the hand (and therefore the forearm muscles) the wrist must be completely pliant to accommodate the movement, a very different situation from no. 5.

7.      Any of these movements can be big and expansive (slow passages - and also when familiarising oneself with it) or short to the point of invisibility (fast passages).

8.      All of the muscles being used will involve to a lesser or greater extent the upper arm.

9.      The actual way someone will play fast thirds will ultimately be personal with the relative contribution of the several muscles involved changing form person to person and from passage to passage.

10.      Using only the fingers (muscles actually in the forearm) will not work. However there is finger work, but mostly it will consist of bending and straightening the fingers to negotiate black/white key distances in respect of the different size of the fingers. Placement of fingers will be done by the arm (mostly upper arm at the shoulder girdle level) and pressing the keys will also be done by the arm via joint alignment. The wrist, I repeat, is just a hinge. It will either have to be held firmly if you want the forearm/hand/fingers to act as a single unit, or pliant if you want to isolate the hand. Both movements may be necessary, and in both movements the relevant muscles will be in the arm or the forearm.

11.      I understand what you are saying, and I agree with it. But you are saying it in a way that is anatomically incorrect. People who do not understand what you are saying, but nevertheless follow your written account can be lead to the wrong idea altogether. I am getting more and more reluctant to write about these issues because I think the same happens to what I write. I know what I am saying, but a person reading my account may get the completely wrong idea. Ultimately this stuff has to be demonstrated. Writing about it (besides being a pain) is very misleading.

12.      Stop disagreeing with me.

For easier pieces to practise thirds (than the ones mentioned so far, which are all advanced), try Scarlatti sonatas.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[minsmusic]

12.      Stop disagreeing with me.

Bernhard.

lol!  I have to disagree with you Bernhard, that people should stop disagreeing with you!  Otherwise, it just becomes the "Welcome to the Bernhard show" and even you wouldn't like that ..... :-/ would you?

Anyway, don't stop your posts on these type of subjects.  Most of us get that demonstration is the BEST way to learn (otherwise, we'd just be advocating text books instead of US) but many of us can follow your very thoughtful explanations.  And if there is misunderstanding, that's good; chance for clarification and opportunity to use different words for the same idea.  Different bait catches different fish.


As well as diatonic thirds, include chromatic thirds in your technical work.  i.e., C and Eflat, then Csharp and E natural etc.  Continue ascending and descending for four octaves trying to apply Bernhard's advice (which coincidentally I agree with).  Hands seperately first, then without looking at your hands, then hands together etc.  Then, grab your piece you're working on (and thirds appear just about everywhere) and try and apply this 'technique' to the easiest passages first.  You'll get a sense of accomplishment which brings the determination to keep trying.  However, if your personality is one that thrives on challenges, tackle the very HARDEST passages first.

[bernhard]

lol!  I have to disagree with you Bernhard, that people should stop disagreeing with you!  

I was pulling Anda's leg

It seems to me that she does not disagree with me at all (I agree with all that she claims to disagree - so I am in the unusual position of disagreeing with myself).

Otherwise, it just becomes the "Welcome to the Bernhard show" and even you wouldn't like that ..... :-/ would you?

There is a thought!

[minsmusic]

I was pulling Anda's leg

I was trying to pull yours, but mustn't have caught them.  It is a long way between Australia and England and I do have only little arms.  

[anda]

12.      Stop disagreeing with me.

ok, ok (but it's not nice of you to take this away from me - it's so much fun! )

anyway, except for the works listed by everyone, as exercise: i sometimes use this to warm up: the chromatic scale played with both hands, parallel and contrary, in minor 3rds, major 3rds, 4th, 5th, minor 6th, major 6th and octaves (and please don't ask me why not 7th - try it, and you'll see why, especially with a hand as "big" as mine).

anyway, i think 3rds and 6th can still cause problems to many pianists - i played chopin op. 25 no 6 and debussy, had no problems there, and now i have problems with some little stupid passages in horowitz's carmen fantasy - by the way, bernhardt, any ideas?

[Whitneygeorgel]

Excellent advice in general, and in particular the bit quoted. It is unbelievalbe how many people fall in this particular trap, of believing that just because they mastered some aspect of technique they can cut corners on a different technique.

How very true. What knowledge you do have! College professor, perhaps?

[Sketchee]

I'm learning Beethoven's Sonata Op 2 No 3 and have trouble with the quick thirds in the right at the beginning.  I hope this thread helps some with that too!

[doowlehc]

the way I practise chopin etude Op 25 # 6 is:

Stage 1) relax the fingers, lift up (slightly) the forearm / elbow while keeping fingers on the surface of the keys - this action lift up your wrist;  then drop the forearm/elbow which triggers the dropping of wrist.  When you drop, you also 'drop' the 2 fingers that need to hit the 2 piano keys.  I do this for each 16th note - i.e. for each bar, I drop 16 times - each time for each 16th note.  I do this initially very slowly, gradually increase speed until I can no longer go faster

Stage 2) I repeat what I did in stage 1, but now each time I drop, I will hit 2 16ths, the second 16th played from the 'rebound' action after playing the 1st 16th.  Essentially, play the 1st and 2nd 16th as if with 1 forearm/elbow dropping.  You should be able to play the 2nd 16th with little need for energy.  Immediately after playing the 2nd 16th, you immediately relaxingly raise your elbow/forearm, to prepare for the next group.  You should practise the 2 16th as 1 group and at fast speed, then pause and wait, when you are ready play another 2 16th.  So take the 1st bar of the etude it becomes:

D# E         ...wait.....     D#  E      ............ wait...........
B    C#                          B    C#

Gradually decrease the ...wait.... time


Stage 3) now do exactly as in Stage 2, but now do it in group of 4.  This means 'drop' your forearm / elbow every 4   16th note group

Step 4) now do exactly as in Stage 3), but now chain 2 groups of 4 together.  When you chain 2 groups of 4, you would play with 2 'dropping' action:  once for each group.  But now you no longer wait between the 2 groups.  You wait only after playing the 2 groups consecutively... that is wait as long as you need to prepare after playing 8 16ths.

Step 5) chain all 16  16ths in 1 group (i.e. now you are playing the whole bar as 1 group)....   still group your 16ths into groups of 4 - and do the drop action every group.  However, now add a 'arm dropping' action for every 9 th 16.... so you are now :


   [     1,2,3,4    5,6,7,8     ]     [  9,10,11,12    13,14,15,16       ]

grouping into 4 16ths with dropping forearm, while at the same time group it into 8 16ths simultaneously by exaggerating the dropping motion from the arm every 9th 16th note.   This allows you to phrase the line with a bigger sweep


Hope this make sense.

[quasimodo]

For easier pieces to practise thirds (than the ones mentioned so far, which are all advanced), try Scarlatti sonatas.

Dear Bernhard,

Could you specify the Scarlatti sonatas which address the matter, double thirds and/or any double notes?
Do you have some other intermediate repertoire suggestions to work out double-notes (including at the LH)?
Thanks by advance!

[bernhard]

Dear Bernhard,

Could you specify the Scarlatti sonatas which address the matter, double thirds and/or any double notes?
Do you have some other intermediate repertoire suggestions to work out double-notes (including at the LH)?
Thanks by advance!

 

It is almost easier to answer the reverse question: which sonata does not.

Here are just a few:

K1 - thirds on the left hand.
k18 - double notes (thirds included on right and left hand)
k 24 - thirds on right and left hand.
k 46 - thirds on left hand (mostly)
k 56 - thirds on right hand
k 57 - double notes on left hand
k82 - thirds on right hand
k84 - double notes everywhere (thirds and sixths)
k86 - double notes (mostly thirds on right hand)
k87 - double notes (mostly sixths)
k92 - lots of double notes (all sorts)
k96 - chords, octaves, thirds, sixths.
k100 - thirds on right hand
k104 - thirds, octaves, chords
k105 - as K 104
K 107 - thirds on both hands
k108 - thirds and octaves on both hands
k115 - double notes on left hand
k 120 - lots of double notes (thirds and sixths) on right hand
k127 - thirds, sixths and octaves on left hand
K 133 - octaves (and a few thirds)
K 134 - thirds on right hand
K 139 - double notes of all kinds (including seconds)
K 140 - lots of double notes on the right hand
K 141 - double notes and chords on left hand
K 143 - double notes on the right hand (thirds, sixths and octaves)
K 147 - lots of double notes on the right hand
K 145 - sixths, sevenths and octaves on the left hand
K 162 - all sorts of double notes on left hand
K 164 - thirds and double notes on left hand
K 166 - double notes on the left hand
K 169 - as K 166
K 170 - as K 166
K 172 - double notes on the right hand
K 201 - double notes on right hand
K 202 - double notes and chords on left hand
K 207 - thirds on right hand
K 236 - lots of double notes on both hands
K 238 - as K 236
K 245 - thirds mostly on right hand
K 247 - thirds on left hand
k 256 - all sorts of double notes on both hands
k 280 - double notes on left hand
K 286 - double notes on left hand
K 288 - thirds on right hand
K 294 - thirds on left hand
K 299 - lots of double notes in both hands
K 301 - double notes on left hand
K 364 - octaves on left hand
K 370 - thirds on both hands
K 372 - thirds and sixths on right hand (a few on left)
K 392 - fifths, sixths and sevenths on left hand
K 394 - double notes on left hand
K 402 - double notes on both hands
K 407 - thirds on left hand
K 436 - double notes on both hands
K 444 - As k 436
k 450 - lots of double notes on both hands
K 481 - double notes on left hand
K 487 - left hand octaves
K 491 - double notes on right hand (lots of thirds)
K 492 - thirds on right hand, octaves on left hand
K 520 - thirds on right hand

Enjoy

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[paulmt]

can u be my piano teacher Bernhard?

[quasimodo]

Thank you so much Bernhard.
Anyone have other suggestions on double-notes intermediate repertoire, preferably romantic pieces?

[bernhard]

Thank you so much Bernhard.
Anyone have other suggestions on double-notes intermediate repertoire, preferably romantic pieces?

Beethoven´s menuet in G has plenty of thirds and sixths, and so does the second movement of Sonata op. 49 no. 1 (the menuet is early intermediate and the sonata late intermediate). And let us not forget his “Turkish March” (from “Rhuins of Athens) – thirds galore.

*Einaudi´s “Dietro Casa” (from his álbum “Uma Matina”) has as many thirds (and plenty of chords tôo) on the right hand as any thirds hungry student could desire. It is a surprisingly easy piece that sounds far more difficult that it actually is (about grade 4).

Howard Skempton – “Well, well, Cornelius” – plenty of thirds on the right hand; “Una Barcarola Eccentrica” – lots of double notes (mostly sixths) on the right hand.

Kabalevsky – “Dance” op. 27 no 16 – thirds on both hands and “Novelette” op. 27 no. 14 – third on the right, double notes on the left.

Bartok – “Hungarian dance” and  “Dawn” (from Ten Easy pieces for Children) – thirds on the right, double notes on the left.

*For something really easy (and nice) with lots of double notes, try “Dolls Dream” by Theodor Oesten.

For something just a bit more challenging, try:

*Mendelssohn´s “Songs Without Words” op. 19 no. 6 (Venetian Gondola Song), op. 30 no. 2, op. 30 no. 4, op. 38 no. 5, op. 85 no. 3, and op. 85 no. 6.

Schubert – “Moment Musicaux” no. 3 (D780).

*Schumann – “Italian Mariner´s Song” 0p. 68 no. 36 (lots of thirds on the right hand); “March” op. 99 no. 11 (lots of thirds and double notes on both hands); the very beautiful “Vision” op. 124 no. 14 (lots of double notes on both hands)

Shostakovitch – “Festival Waltz” – The third part is laden with thirds on the right hand.

*Amy Beach – “Fireflies” – 6 pages filled with right hand thirds.

Prokofiev – “11st Scherzo in C” (from his “Juvenilia”) – thirds on the right hand, double notes on the left.

*Edward Mac Dowell – “Scherzino” op. 39 no. 11 – lots of thirds and double notes on the right hand.

*= Romantic style

I am sure that there are plenty more (but these are nice).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.