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Beethoven op. 109, 1st and 2nd mvt. urgent (Read 6403 times)

Offline pianowolfi

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Beethoven op. 109, 1st and 2nd mvt. urgent
« on: May 03, 2007, 01:22:11 PM »
Argh :P. I try and try to record this decently since two weeks. I need your comments. And first of all critique. :P


Best


Wolfi :-\

piano sheet music of Sonata 30


Offline pianistimo

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Re: Beethoven op. 109, 1st and 2nd mvt. urgent
«Reply #1 on: May 03, 2007, 01:48:46 PM »
hey.  your fingers are working fine now!  pianowolfi - cycling seems to be helping you.  this is a good 'start the day thinking positive' piece.  thank you for posting it.  the transition i like to hear really bashing.  yours was more tempered with kindness.  i want to hear bashing.  i don't know why.  especially since you are sincerely expressing kindness in your playing. - but, - all of sudden  - now i hear it in the arpeggios.

oh.  wow - the second movement.  hmm.  pianowolfi - don't get mad - but i want to hear your attitude towards the second movement in the first.  and visa-versa.  the reason i say this is that the way the pieces are composed- they speak for themselves- so to be really dramatic with them means to 'temper' them.  i'm looking for more subtle smoothness in the second mov't.  how you played the last four measures are exactly what i mean - really connected and subtle. 

just in case i didn't explain myself very well - to my ears - i'd like to hear the second movement with a lot of 'love' feeling - and the first with a sort of 'command/control' that you have with the second.

Offline Mayla

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Re: Beethoven op. 109, 1st and 2nd mvt. urgent
«Reply #2 on: May 03, 2007, 02:49:29 PM »
.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline counterpoint

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Re: Beethoven op. 109, 1st and 2nd mvt. urgent
«Reply #3 on: May 03, 2007, 07:03:59 PM »
Argh :P. I try and try to record this decently since two weeks. I need your comments. And first of all critique. :P

Best

Wolfi :-\


The first impression to me was: wow, his pedal now is exceptional clean  :D

The whole playing is very accurate, every "subito pp" is well placed.
There are very few things that I find a little unusual:

- the 32th and 64th notes in the "Adagio espressivo" parts sound very slow to me. I think, they are really meant as arpeggio, not as a series of single notes.

The chord before the Prestissimo part was too long. Okay, there is a fermata, but there is also an attacca in my edition (Peters, Martienssen). The Prestissimo could be even faster (did I really say this  ??? ) and the piano parts of it could be at the same a bit more relaxed (not slower, but lazier - it's a contradiction, but not impossible). And there you could take a little bit more pedal - every half bar or so... I would make an accelerando in the last 8 bars of this movement.
If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline Pumkinhead

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Re: Beethoven op. 109, 1st and 2nd mvt. urgent
«Reply #4 on: May 03, 2007, 08:16:34 PM »
Hey guys, could you critique my recoring too? It was required for an audition CD, so I had to learn it relatively quick. Actually, I had started it a week and a half before recording (i know, I'm an idiot!). I hope you enjoy it, just look past all the numerous musical problems that i havent fixed. lol

Drew

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Beethoven op. 109, 1st and 2nd mvt. urgent
«Reply #5 on: May 03, 2007, 09:19:27 PM »
Hi, Wolfi.  You know, I do not feel qualified to comment on things like the authority of your interpretations here, though I can hear that your playing is full of life and spirit and passion -- and as far as I know, you are quite accurate in your playing (I would need to study more to know otherwise).

What I find interesting, just in observation, is that you feel as though your improv (centuries -- which I am listening to as I type) is enough to speak for you and that you will speak through your music with it.  I 'get' that, but, I also wonder why you would not feel similarly with this Beethoven or any other piece you choose to put your time and energy into ?  I realize it is another person's work, but it is also for you and you can make it yours -- what an honor to Beethoven that is, you know ?  I think as a composer yourself, you do know.  So, perhaps this is my only question to you regarding this, why do you feel such an urgency to recieve a critique with this ?  You don't have to answer that, my question is meant more as a spark for you, but you can if you like.

Wow yes that's a precious and important spark for me. How did you know that I of course would try to answer your question? What if was an answer-freak ;D? I plan to send this to someone whom I might meet some day and who is an amazing pianist. And I want to send it soon. So I thought some comments would be helpful regarding my decision if I should send this or try another one. Anyway, I think you are in fact *very* qualified to comment :) even if a piece might not be in your listening or playing repertoire, you always have a distinct feeling for the essence of the musical performance. Authority? well I guess I just should swallow that somehow :-[ Thank you very much for taking the time to listen and comment! :)

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Beethoven op. 109, 1st and 2nd mvt. urgent
«Reply #6 on: May 03, 2007, 09:41:17 PM »

The first impression to me was: wow, his pedal now is exceptional clean  :D
Thank you! I would not have got mad if you had mentioned that in a different comment. I know that I tend to do blurry pedalling.
Quote
The whole playing is very accurate, every "subito pp" is well placed.
There are very few things that I find a little unusual:

- the 32th and 64th notes in the "Adagio espressivo" parts sound very slow to me. I think, they are really meant as arpeggio, not as a series of single notes.
that has maybe to do with my aim to bring out the difference between the note values exactly as they are written. I try to avoid to play them sweeping. Do you find that this interrupts the motion? Perhaps then I should find a way to combine these two, motion and exactness in note values.

Quote

The chord before the Prestissimo part was too long.
Yes I am always a bit scared of the prestissimo :o lol ;D

Quote

Okay, there is a fermata, but there is also an attacca in my edition (Peters, Martienssen). The Prestissimo could be even faster (did I really say this  ??? )
Yes you did  ;D Well if I practise for two more weeks as consistently as I "should" it might get faster yeah :P right now I feel like it would get too messy at a faster tempo.

Quote

and the piano parts of it could be at the same a bit more relaxed (not slower, but lazier - it's a contradiction, but not impossible). And there you could take a little bit more pedal - every half bar or so...
Ok this one I will definitely try out tomorrow.

Quote

 I would make an accelerando in the last 8 bars of this movement.

Ohhh in this case I don't agree. I try to keep the exact same speed, without any change.

thank you for listening and commenting :)

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Beethoven op. 109, 1st and 2nd mvt. urgent
«Reply #7 on: May 03, 2007, 09:46:56 PM »
hey.  your fingers are working fine now!  pianowolfi - cycling seems to be helping you.  this is a good 'start the day thinking positive' piece.  thank you for posting it.  the transition i like to hear really bashing.  yours was more tempered with kindness.  i want to hear bashing.  i don't know why.  especially since you are sincerely expressing kindness in your playing. - but, - all of sudden  - now i hear it in the arpeggios.

oh.  wow - the second movement.  hmm.  pianowolfi - don't get mad - but i want to hear your attitude towards the second movement in the first.  and visa-versa.  the reason i say this is that the way the pieces are composed- they speak for themselves- so to be really dramatic with them means to 'temper' them.  i'm looking for more subtle smoothness in the second mov't.  the last four measures are exactly what i mean - really connected and subtle. 

just in case i didn't explain myself very well - to my ears - i'd like to hear the second movement with a lot of 'love' feeling - and the first with a sort of 'command/control' that you have with the second.


Thank you very much pianistimo, this is a very interesting approach to me. Though really strange at the first glance. I need to think a bit more about this one and later I will come back to comment your comment. Thank you very much for taking the time to listen and comment :)

Offline counterpoint

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Re: Beethoven op. 109, 1st and 2nd mvt. urgent
«Reply #8 on: May 03, 2007, 10:13:54 PM »
that has maybe to do with my aim to bring out the difference between the note values exactly as they are written. I try to avoid to play them sweeping. Do you find that this interrupts the motion? Perhaps then I should find a way to combine these two, motion and exactness in note values.

Oh, it's not a real problem, just a bit unexpected. If you love to play this way - don't change it.
If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Beethoven op. 109, 1st and 2nd mvt. urgent
«Reply #9 on: May 04, 2007, 12:54:43 AM »
Oh, it's not a real problem, just a bit unexpected. If you love to play this way - don't change it.

Well yeah in this case it's perhaps less about what I love but about what Beethoven has intended, and there I try to give my best. It is always astonishing to me how great pianists are able to have their own unique approach and although are completely capable of respecting all the composer's marks. :P

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Beethoven op. 109, 1st and 2nd mvt. urgent
«Reply #10 on: May 04, 2007, 01:06:46 AM »
i'd like to not hear much slowing down with both pumpkinhead and pianowolfi. and to keep the 'command' in the piece.  even in the beautiful moments - to simply view the beauty and then keep going.  not to slow too much in each transition. 

to me - it is like viewing sunlight hitting a person's hair - you hear the da da    da  da    da da    da   da -  but it's not affecting the next thing that happens.  to me - it's like things happening around you - and then you acting on the things.   a sort of even match - excepting one has a sort of feminine touch and the other more masculine.  a duo - so to speak.

Offline mikey6

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Re: Beethoven op. 109, 1st and 2nd mvt. urgent
«Reply #11 on: May 04, 2007, 01:59:42 AM »
I have a few comments just following though with the score (haven't read anyone elses so sorry if they are already mentioned)
Watch the rhythm in the 1st 8 bras, occasionally the dotted semibreve intrudes on the semiquaver.
The rolled chord in the Adagio espressivo - as you play it, it is sort of a surprise, but I wonder if it should somehow generate out of what's come before.  The cresc leads to a forte at the start of the 3/4 and you pull away from it.
Watch placement at bar 13, a bit early.
Bar 14 seems more shy to me than espressivo, it's a nice sound but I think needs to come out more.
You could perhaps do a bit more with the crescendo, it sounds a bit flat to me.
Br 52, could you get straight onto the second beat without a holdup? it disturbs the 'flow' for want of a better word.
Bar 58 chord needs some more drama, I think some more arm weight - I think a bit fingery at the moment, could be the piano or recording.
The piano in bar 58 fades to nothing almost, it is only piano.
Bar 60, watch rhythm on last beat, can you somehow make it follow onto the chord in bar 61.
Decresendo at end of bar 61, would help with harmonic progression too.
Bar 63, perhaps more of a personal view, but I think the 6ths figuration are born out of what precedes it and if you hold up just before that starts, we lose the connection.
Can the return at end of bar 65 sparkle a bit more?
Can you voice the chords in bar 77 onwards a little better?

I think that will do for now.  Take em or leave em.  Some nice colours and clean playing overall.
Never look at the trombones. You'll only encourage them.
Richard Strauss

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Beethoven op. 109, 1st and 2nd mvt. urgent
«Reply #12 on: May 04, 2007, 10:55:38 AM »
Thank you for your detailed comments, mikey!


I have a few comments just following though with the score (haven't read anyone elses so sorry if they are already mentioned)
Watch the rhythm in the 1st 8 bras, occasionally the dotted semibreve intrudes on the semiquaver.
The rolled chord in the Adagio espressivo - as you play it, it is sort of a surprise, but I wonder if it should somehow generate out of what's come before.  The cresc leads to a forte at the start of the 3/4 and you pull away from it.

Yeah I hear what you mean
Quote
Watch placement at bar 13, a bit early.
Bar 14 seems more shy to me than espressivo, it's a nice sound but I think needs to come out more.
Okay. I intend to play dolce espressivo there.
Quote
You could perhaps do a bit more with the crescendo, it sounds a bit flat to me.
Br 52, could you get straight onto the second beat without a holdup? it disturbs the 'flow' for want of a better word.
Bar 58 chord needs some more drama, I think some more arm weight - I think a bit fingery at the moment, could be the piano or recording.
The piano in bar 58 fades to nothing almost, it is only piano.
Bar 60, watch rhythm on last beat, can you somehow make it follow onto the chord in bar 61.
Decresendo at end of bar 61, would help with harmonic progression too.
Bar 63, perhaps more of a personal view, but I think the 6ths figuration are born out of what precedes it and if you hold up just before that starts, we lose the connection.
okay these are very god observations. :)
Quote
Can the return at end of bar 65 sparkle a bit more?
Can you voice the chords in bar 77 onwards a little better?

I think that will do for now.  Take em or leave em.  Some nice colours and clean playing overall.


Thanks that is very helpful! :)

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Beethoven op. 109, 1st and 2nd mvt. urgent
«Reply #13 on: May 04, 2007, 10:57:07 AM »
And imbetter, yes of course I can play the third mvt. I will post it soon ;) Lol

Offline m

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Re: Beethoven op. 109, 1st and 2nd mvt. urgent
«Reply #14 on: May 04, 2007, 08:49:22 PM »
Hi Wolfi,

Sorry, I am out of town and have a few minutes to write. Also, I don't have music in front of me...
As you probably have noticed, very rarely I comment in audiotion room. I just afraid that if start critisizing people would think that they are not good. It has nothing to do with that. For me the work on a piece is a NEVER ending process. I myself still sometimes take lessons--it is like talking about the life itself...
In any case just wanted to talk little bit about who was Beethoven, and what was this particular Sonata for him.

If you think about that man, it is actually hard to imagine somebody with more tragic life, the person whose whole life was actually full of desire to find a simple personal happiness and struggling for that.
It is interesting that Beethoven actually is perceived as a "heroic" composer, but in fact, if you look deeper, he was a very sentimental person--just listen to his 2nd movements! Of course you will hear those tragic moments, as well, but actually, he was incredibly "pantheistic" composer, i.e. the theme of nature for him was in fact dominating--the nature as a resort from all human sorrows, the nature as the only resort where he finally could find the rest for his exhausted soul, the nature as the only resort where he could find himself perfectly happy in his dreams.   

No wonder, many musicologists say that actually Beethoven was the first romantic...

Now, lets take the last 4 Sonatas. Don't you see that if to look at them more globally, they ARE a BIG SCALE Sonata form, where op.109 is a usual "second movement", i.e. a lyrical center of the cicle. The deaf man who never found hapinness in his life, but still dreaming about it with that delight, despite understanding that it is only unreachable "dream of that far away star". Isn't it amazing, if to think, it is a direct link to Scriabin's 4th Sonata?  :o :o :o 

In section around 2:50 ---> you finally got much closer to it... Before that point somehow I feel you are much more "busy with notes". Why?

Sorry, gotta go.
Best, M

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Beethoven op. 109, 1st and 2nd mvt. urgent
«Reply #15 on: May 05, 2007, 12:09:19 AM »
Dear Marik, thank you very much for your very informative comment. You seem to read my thoughts about Beethoven and nature, I always felt that way about him, especially about his late piano works. I often go to places where I feel connected with nature and Beethoven's late compositions are often in my mind there, going with me.  :)

I love this huge perspective you give about the 4 last sonatas, it is something new to me and very interesting. Does that mean I have to learn all the 4 last sonatas now? :P I am really scared about op 106 yet. I play op. 109 and op.111 so far.


Anyway, why seem I to be busy with notes? I admit that I do not get yet the difference between the parts before 2.50 and the ones after. Perhaps I felt a bit under stress because of that "urgent" thing? Well then I guess I need to handle stress better. It is not anymore urgent anyway with this piece now, things have changed. So perhaps I will soon re-record it, taking into consideration what you and the other commentators have said. I feel very grateful to you that you have taken the time to listen and comment, I appreciate that really very much.


Best

Wolfi

Offline m

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Re: Beethoven op. 109, 1st and 2nd mvt. urgent
«Reply #16 on: May 05, 2007, 06:46:37 PM »

I love this huge perspective you give about the 4 last sonatas, it is something new to me and very interesting.


In fact it occured to me while I was writing. But think, definitely the op.110 is a Scherzo, and no doubt, by definition the op.111 is a finale.


Anyway, why seem I to be busy with notes? I admit that I do not get yet the difference between the parts before 2.50 and the ones after.

The beginning should flaw like a little clear and transparent creek. There is something enigmatic in it, making you breath faster. For me this breath was missing at the beginning. (The 2:50 point is at higher register, so it is much easier to breath there and maintain transparency.)


To make it breath is actually very easy--all you need is to breath with your hands.

Best, M

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Beethoven op. 109, 1st and 2nd mvt. urgent
«Reply #17 on: May 05, 2007, 07:01:24 PM »
In fact it occured to me while I was writing. But think, definitely the op.110 is a Scherzo, and no doubt, by definition the op.111 is a finale.


The beginning should flaw like a little clear and transparent creek. There is something enigmatic in it, making you breath faster. For me this breath was missing at the beginning. (The 2:50 point is at higher register, so it is much easier to breath there and maintain transparency.)


To make it breath is actually very easy--all you need is to breath with your hands.

Best, M

Thank you Marik, that's very helpful!  :)