Cziffra Discussion

[opus10no2]

        WUUUU Eurovision Countdown        6 dayz 2 go  says:

        WUUUU Eurovision Countdown        6 dayz 2 go  says:
have you seen this vid before?
KAH!!! says:
yes
        WUUUU Eurovision Countdown        6 dayz 2 go  says:
what do you think?
KAH!!! says:
I hate cziffra's playing
        WUUUU Eurovision Countdown        6 dayz 2 go  says:
why?
KAH!!! says:
becasue he's just a showman, with no sensitivity towards the music
        WUUUU Eurovision Countdown        6 dayz 2 go  says:
are you aware how idiotic and immature that statement is?
KAH!!! says:
no, I think ut's a true statement
        WUUUU Eurovision Countdown        6 dayz 2 go  says:
based on what?
KAH!!! says:
his playing
        WUUUU Eurovision Countdown        6 dayz 2 go  says:
why is his playing so expressive and colourful?
KAH!!! says:
It's not, it's just awful, bang bang bang, fast fast fast, octaves octaves, more notes, makes no sense whatsoever
        WUUUU Eurovision Countdown        6 dayz 2 go  says:
the amount of octaves would surely depend on the amount of octaves in the piece...?
        WUUUU Eurovision Countdown        6 dayz 2 go  says:
his tempo fluctuates alot in fast pieces, probably the greatest hallmark of his playing
KAH!!! says:
he adds loads of them, and half the time he can't even do what he's actually trying to do
        WUUUU Eurovision Countdown        6 dayz 2 go  says:
what are so many people fans of his?
        WUUUU Eurovision Countdown        6 dayz 2 go  says:
why?*
KAH!!! says:
becasue he plays fast and loud. Thats a major attraction to a lot of ppl
KAH!!! says:
why is Richter even more popular?
KAH!!! says:
Arrau?
KAH!!! says:
Cortot?
        WUUUU Eurovision Countdown        6 dayz 2 go  says:
richter's rhythmic personality is much plainer, less distinct
KAH!!! says:
cziffra;s polaying is distinct only becasue of the stupidity of his playing
KAH!!! says:
I mean that bit in the vidio when he sticks the LH in octaves, and hammers the bass
KAH!!! says:
it's ghastly
        WUUUU Eurovision Countdown        6 dayz 2 go  says:
haha, may I post this conversation on pianostreet?
KAH!!! says:
and his 2nd scherzo chopin, is just an abslute joke
        WUUUU Eurovision Countdown        6 dayz 2 go  says:
to start a topic, for other views
KAH!!! says:
yes If you want


KAH = franzliszt2, and I am WUUU etc.

Further opinions are welcome.

[elevateme_returns]

why would you do this. have you nothing better to do

[opus10no2]

HAHAHA, I am starting a discussion, I will bet that more people agree with me than franzliszt2

[franzliszt2]

Yes, well let us ask proffessional pianists and advanced students and I think we'll get a whole new picture

[thalbergmad]

Any pianist that can do that is not going to be remembered for his sensitivity. There is a lot more to Cziffra than mechanical displays and anyone who says otherwise, has not investigated his recordings further than his Liszt.

If you got it, flaunt it.

If you ain't, don't bother.

Thal

[opus10no2]

i really want to see spiderman 3!!! says:
how on earth can you judge his musicality from grande galope chromatique?!!?!
KAH!!! says:
lmao
i really want to see spiderman 3!!! says:
thats the most ridiculous thing ever
i really want to see spiderman 3!!! says:
thats like listening to arrau play chopsticks
KAH!!! says:
haha
        WUUUU Eurovision Countdown        6 dayz 2 go  says:
are you silly? his GGC performance has incredible colour and spontineity
KAH!!! says:
no it's just loud unrhythmical and total crap
i really want to see spiderman 3!!! says:
it is crap
KAH!!! says:
you heard bolet play it?
        WUUUU Eurovision Countdown        6 dayz 2 go  says:
yeah, completely different
KAH!!! says:
yes, much better,. more sense and not noise
KAH!!! says:
you heard cziffra;s gnomenrigen?? hahahahahaha
KAH!!! says:
thats is like his worst performance
        WUUUU Eurovision Countdown        6 dayz 2 go  says:
yeah, its incredible
KAH!!! says:
how?

KAH!!! says:
he speeds up like an idiot
        WUUUU Eurovision Countdown        6 dayz 2 go  says:
theyre called tempo fluctuations
        WUUUU Eurovision Countdown        6 dayz 2 go  says:
and theyre incredibly colourful and exciting
KAH!!! says:
no they are called idiot changes of tempo to show off
KAH!!! says:
any fool can smasj gnomenrigen that fast
        WUUUU Eurovision Countdown        6 dayz 2 go  says:
its something massively lacking in most modern pianists playing
i really want to see spiderman 3!!! says:
hang on hang on
        WUUUU Eurovision Countdown        6 dayz 2 go  says:
well, they cant, but besides that, its not the speed of the performance that i find most remarkable


Further convo, with 'i want to see spiderman' being elevateme

[elevateme_returns]

what is the point in all this? why dont you just start a normal topic about cziffra

[opus10no2]

To clearly put forth both sides, I know pasting an msn chat isn't ideal, but it gets the point across.

[elevateme_returns]

and how can you talk about colour from a crap quality youtube vid?

[elevateme_returns]

(21:48) WUUUU Eurovision: they do, i saw hamelin live
(21:48) WUUUU Eurovision: had a stiffy all the way through

(21:35) WUUUU Eurovision: biret is underrated
(21:35) WUUUU Eurovision: shes good live

(21:27) WUUUU Eurovision: i know, ravel was a cock

(21:28) WUUUU Eurovision: the thing is, there will always be uncreative people who will play the music as it is written



oh well. gets the point across i suppose

[opus10no2]

and how can you talk about colour from a crap quality youtube vid?

Rhythmic colour...not just dynamic colour, the minute fluctuations in tempo.

It's the best thing about his playing, actually for me.

[nicco]

Okey....are you guys aware that Grand Galop Chromatique is a pure showpiece? I dont think anyone manages to put on a show like Cziffra does, he is exceptional, and adds a whole new dimension to piano music. His mastery over the keys and the thrill he creates is unmatched.

[elevateme_returns]

thank you  a showpiece!! just like i said.

however im sure there must be others that can create the same thrill

[opus10no2]

No, there is none who have replicated his technical facility, raw bravura, and spontanious colour in this piece.

Whether this is a showpiece or not does not negate the fact that Cziffra fills this piece with colour and thrilling spontineity from every angle.

Playing this piece like he does actually demands a great amount of musical sensitivity.

[pita bread]

If any of you doubt Cziffra's musical prowess,  listen to his Liszt TE#10.

[steinwaymodeld]

Yes, well let us ask proffessional pianists and advanced students and I think we'll get a whole new picture

You are such a douche, go sit in the corner with ur 12-key toy piano.

[franzliszt2]

You are such a douche, go sit in the corner with ur 12-key toy piano.

  Whatever

If any of you doubt Cziffra's musical prowess, listen to his Liszt TE#10.

No listen to Richter's. Cziffra bangs it, adds notes, and it just sounds crap!

[etudes]

Yes, well let us ask proffessional pianists and advanced students and I think we'll get a whole new picture

almost all of pro pianists I know agree that Cziffra is great artist not just his perfection of technique but also his colour,tone quality,inner bravura.......and you are just the only one who fool around and blame someone.....
you have to be at one certain  level to know how bad you are......get out from your own world man...

[elevateme_returns]

Playing this piece like he does actually demands a great amount of musical sensitivity.

hahahahahaha

[franzliszt2]

almost all of pro pianists I know agree that Cziffra is great artist not just his perfection of technique but also his colour,tone quality,inner bravura.......and you are just the only one who fool around and blame someone.....
you have to be at one certain  level to know how bad you are......get out from your own world man...

You heard his Liszt sonata??? How is he a great artist? he compares nothing to the likes of Cortot, Freidman etc...

[opus10no2]

hahahahahaha

  What a douche.

You heard his Liszt sonata??? How is he a great artist? he compares nothing to the likes of Cortot, Freidman etc...

His Liszt sonata isn't one of his best recordings.

Discussing art is subjective, and discussing great artsts will always be subjetive too, but by following a general opinion of many erudite fans of pianism, who hold him is great esteem, is enough to shake the thin ground beneath your pitifully immature sentiments.

It's sad to think that by entering music academies many students' minds are closed up to follow dogmatic ignorant ways of thinking.

Get yourself an independant opinion, it's fine not to like someting, but to decry an artist like you have is utterly infantile.

[franzliszt2]

I seem to be the only one with an independent opinion.

[Kassaa]

I seem to be the only one with an independent opinion.

Yet it is independent for the sake of independence.

[franzliszt2]

Yet it is independent for the sake of independence.

How? I geniunly hate Cziffra's playing, and I know fine well that I am not the only one. Is it a crime?

I am yet to hear any form of argument against mine other than his artistry in the grand galop chromatique!! If a pianist becomes most famous for his grand galop, I pity them. How can anyone say his Chopin is good?? His hungarian rhaps are good I admit, but come on, it's not as if he's playing the last Schubert sonata or something great is it? His random improv on chopin video on youtube....come on!!! Thats not music!! His schumann toccata....you cabn predict fast fast fast in the octaves.

His playing is predictable, except his Liszt sonata....that was worse than I could have possibly imagined.

Please give me some examples of his musical playing instead of his grand galop or his riddiculous transcriptions

His sound...how can he possibly be judged properly on that?? The Cd's are all old. He has achieved nowhere near the legendary status of Arrau, Rubinstein etc... there will and has been many like Cziffra.

Did he ever play anything serious?? Or all these mindless showpieces???

[opus10no2]

Do I have to mention his entire discography?

His Chopin etudes are amazing, unique, and inimitably.

Your ears are obviously not attuned to recognising the unique qualities of his playing, if you think he is imitable, for I would place him in the top 3 most inimitable pianists of the last century.

I don't hate anyone's playing, if I dislike it I just don't listen, I do not deride any artist with genuine intent.

You mention the famous improv video, he displays an incredibly rare skill there, and that alone grants him a place in the pantheon of legends.

[franzliszt2]

Do I have to mention his entire discography?

His Chopin etudes are amazing, unique, and inimitably.

Your ears are obviously not attuned to recognising the unique qualities of his playing, if you think he is imitable, for I would place him in the top 3 most inimitable pianists of the last century.

I don't hate anyone's playing, if I dislike it I just don't listen, I do not deride any artist with genuine intent.

You mention the famous improv video, he displays an incredibly rare skill there, and that alone grants him a place in the pantheon of legends.

I have a lot of cziffra cd's. By a lot, I mean as many as I could find.

Chopin etudes 

Your musical opinions are clearly based on speed.

His improv video??? It's just all speed!! Anyone can do that!!!!!!!!!!!! Speed is not virtuosity!!!

[opus10no2]

What makes you think it is 'just speed'?

Note the elegance, bravura, incredible variety of tone, kaleidoscopic range of rhythmic phrasings, and on top of that, the sheer command of pianistic figuration while improvising.

Also, on the 'just speed' subject, if 'anyone' can play as fast as he could, why would anyone think it remarkable? Why would he have fame for being among the fastest pianists in history, in his prime.

[franzliszt2]

Elegence.....Listen to pachman playing 3rd ballade
Variety of tone...Richter schuman fantasy
Range of rhytmical phrasings....all good pianists
Shher command...all good pianists

[nicco]

His improv video??? It's just all speed!! Anyone can do that!!!!!!!!!!!! Speed is not virtuosity!!!

Of course, Cziffra is not a virtuoso.

Not at all.

[opus10no2]

Range of rhytmical phrasings....all good pianists
Shher command...all good pianists

The range is more limited for most other pianists.

And do you even understand at all what I mean by command of pianistic figuration while improvising?

[thracozaag]

I have a lot of cziffra cd's. By a lot, I mean as many as I could find.

Chopin etudes 

Your musical opinions are clearly based on speed.

His improv video??? It's just all speed!! Anyone can do that!!!!!!!!!!!! Speed is not virtuosity!!!

  I'm breaking my promise of not ever posting here again (mostly due to intractable "opinions" such as yours), but since Mr. Cziffra is no longer around to defend himself (as if his incredible artistic legacy even warrants that), I felt, since you are espousing countless repetitions through the ages of what people didn't like about his playing--which is a shame--Cziffra's recorded output provides an abundance of differing facets to his all-encompassing artistry.
  Of course, his sheer speed is the first, and most striking aspect to his playing--but there is always a musical and emotional impetus BEHIND that speed (unlike say, Barere or Argerich for me).  His improv video--"anyone" can do that?  Hardly!
  Beyond the sheer speed, there are limitless recordings that show him to be the consummate poet--his live Schumann first Sonata and Fasshingswank aus Wien (the 1964 performance of the toccata, unlike Barere's is not a mere technical stunt, but a fully realized interpretation stunningly executed), his Grieg Concerto with Roberto Benzi features one of the most spine-tingling moments in all of piano playing for me--the way he stops time in the slow section of the last movement continues to give me goosebumps whenever I hear like--truly magical.  The esteemed curator of IPAM, Donald Manildi, and I concur that Cziffra's live video of the Chopin Barcarolle is right up there with the all time great performances of the piece (Moiseiwitsch, Kapell, and Lipatti).  I could go on and on, but those are the most immediate examples I could summon.
  Clearly, your mind and ears are closed to his work, which is sad, and I'm sure nothing that I or anyone else could write will ever change your mind even one iota (I'm guilty of the same thing--no amount of convincing or listening will probably ever sway me toward considering Schiff, Brendel, etc as "great pianists), but I wanted to make sure the people on this forum were given a more complete picture of Cziffra's awesome pianistic legacy he left before us--truly a unique figure in our annals.

koji

PS: Friedman never recorded the Liszt Sonata, unfortuantely, the disks were melted down into shellac for some Australian highways.

[elevateme_returns]

His improv video--"anyone" can do that?  Hardly!

how can you be sure that he completely made all of it up on the spot? who's to say that he didnt practise it at home?

[thracozaag]

how can you be sure that he completely made all of it up on the spot? who's to say that he didnt practise it at home?

 What does it matter if he did (which I doubt, after hearing countless improvisations of his up until his death).

koji

[elevateme_returns]

well then anyone could do it. just prepare it at home

[thracozaag]

well then anyone could do it. just prepare it at home

  (since you're so clever).

koji

[elevateme_returns]

i'm not even going to comment on this..

koji

you just did

[elevateme_returns]

since im so clever. right. duno what that has to do with anyone being able to learn a piece

[ronde_des_sylphes]

well then anyone could do it. just prepare it at home

I'm sure 

A man who earnt his living improvising in Budapest cafes felt the need to "prepare" an improvisation to impress posterity. For heaven's sake.

[thracozaag]

since im so clever. right. duno what that has to do with anyone being able to learn a piece

  Yes, delightful; thanks for reminding me on why I stopped posting altogether.

koji

[elevateme_returns]

Yes, delightful; thanks for reminding me on why I stopped posting altogether.

koji

but youve just posted... AGAIN. why dont you just stick to your word and stop posting

[opus10no2]

Show some respect you douche, are you even aware of his prowess?

[ted]

Speaking as an old and possibly irrelevant amateur who knows very little about classical music, I have always loved Cziffra's playing. This is not because of technique, speed, showmanship and the rest, although these may have been important to him, and good luck to him for it if that is what he enjoyed. I like his playing solely because of its sound - that wonderfully clear and musical command of the keyboard, especially in passages of finger work. I have been puzzled at the negative reactions of some of my friends, to whom I have recommended his recordings. Sure, his interpretation was often deeply original and personal but why not ? You only live once.

[nicco]

Listen to his Dante, his mephisto waltz, his Schumann Carnaval, his rach 2, all are filled with so much expression and passion, he is one of those who seems to be able to truly reproduce exactly what he feels in the music.

[steinwaymodeld]

I feel that EMI and Phillips is possibly one of the person to blame for that

Most of the EMI and Phillips release of the cziffra recording are sub-par for him. (for eg the Liszt Sonata) which doesn't even not do justice to this great artist, it hurts his reputation.

there are a lot of wonderful live recording of cziffra, if not, just look at the Les Introuveble boxset of his or 'message of young pianists', those are a bit harder to find in US, but it's def portray cziffra better than those 'big labels' releases.

Even in the EMI DVD, Cziffra plays much better than on the mainstream CDs.

sometimes i think EMI and Phillips are out to hurt cziffra's reputation.

But, yea, if u judge cziffra solely on one recording, I will stick to my judgment, you are a giant douche.

[pita bread]

but youve just posted... AGAIN. why dont you just stick to your word and stop posting

Let's do a side-by-side comparison of Koji's and Elevateme's Ondines.

[demented cow]

What do people think about the Cziff's recordings of non-virtuoso stuff like Beethoven and the pre-Bach repertoire? He recorded several Beethoven sonatas, even though he said he preferred to leave Beethoven to others because other people could do a better job. It seems like they're not his best recordings, but do you think that they suck or are merely competent?

To me he's clearly great when he's at his best. It's pretty clear from his romantic repertoire that  he is not far behind Horowitz in his use of original nuances (dynamics, phrasing etc.) to bring life into what he played (at least in fast pieces, maybe less so in slow passages), and that he's not just a showman (otherwise he would have played certain pieces a fair bit faster, e.g. the Schumann Toccata and Gnomenreigen).

[opus10no2]

In 'original nuances' he is simply different to Horowitz, they found value in different things, and so chose to focus on different types of nuances in the music.

He is incredible in slow pieces also, but the difference between him and other pianists becomes more obvious in fast pieces, with the amount and distinct type of rhythmic colour he applies.

[franzliszt2]

Let's do a side-by-side comparison of Koji's and Elevateme's Ondines.

Why not put your ondine on and then say stuff like that?? Koji's and elevateme's ondines are good. But why the hell you comparing them? Koji is massivly older, and has studied at Curtis, elevateme was like 15 or summit. and has not been to curtis. So please post yours and then I'll respect you view.

[elevateme_returns]

Let's do a side-by-side comparison of Koji's and Elevateme's Ondines.

why? we all know he's the better pianist. hes got a doctorate from juilliard, im 16.

what would be the point?

[elevateme_returns]

actually i would love to hear koji's ondine