Nuance

[walking_encyclopedia]

What is your definition of 'nuance'? that word is used a lot to describe pianist's playing, and I'm not completely sure what it means, in regards to the piano.

If you know of a piece that uses nuance, or recording to use as a good example, it would be appreciated.

thanks

[pianowolfi]

It is a french word. Diversity, shades, little differences in tone colour; very subtle differences and shades. The gourmet part of pianism

[opus10no2]

Pianists play with 2 things - volume and time.

Control of nuance is very important. There are 'great' pianists without it, pianists that concentrate on the 'bigger picture', but I am firmly of the belief that nuance is necessary in pianism, and that the utmost colour/nuance and the utmost structural control/clarity are not mutually exclusive.

[invictious]

Nuance is being able to play notes very softly without losing body.
Nuance is being able to play oh-so-full-of-chords-by-rachmaninov without forcing it and still being able to hear the individual touch of each key.

[opus10no2]

Think of an interpretation of a piece something like a painting.

There is the whole, and there is the sum of parts.

Some pianists do justice to the whole, some focus on the parts, the great pianists do both.

[thalberg]

I once heard that at the end of a phrase of Mozart, when you lean into the penultimate note and then play the last note really soft, that specific device was called "nuance."  I don't know how reliable the guy was who said that to me.

[walking_encyclopedia]

I once heard that at the end of a phrase of Mozart, when you lean into the penultimate note and then play the last note really soft, that specific device was called "nuance."  I don't know how reliable the guy was who said that to me.

I hope the definition is broader than that, but thanks anyway

[thalberg]

I hope the definition is broader than that, but thanks anyway

Well, you already had a bunch of broader definitions in the above posts.  And you could have arrived at those definitions simply by looking in the dictionary.

[ramseytheii]

I once heard that at the end of a phrase of Mozart, when you lean into the penultimate note and then play the last note really soft, that specific device was called "nuance."  I don't know how reliable the guy was who said that to me.

I hate it when people do that, especially when the last beat of a phrase has a full chord.  Why is that the style these days?  It sounds effete, to be frank.  People play this way in Scarlatti also, and it is really deflating for the character.  Just play, for G-d's sake!

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

try putting nuance into 'la bamba' this way.  it's very fun.

[thalberg]

I hate it when people do that, especially when the last beat of a phrase has a full chord.  Why is that the style these days?  It sounds effete, to be frank.  People play this way in Scarlatti also, and it is really deflating for the character.  Just play, for G-d's sake!

Walter Ramsey

LOL.  Walter, I like you. 

And yes, the device would be insanely bad when applied to Scarlatti.

[thalberg]

try putting nuance into 'la bamba' this way.  it's very fun.

 

[counterpoint]

I hate it when people do that, especially when the last beat of a phrase has a full chord.  Why is that the style these days?  It sounds effete, to be frank.  People play this way in Scarlatti also, and it is really deflating for the character.  Just play, for G-d's sake!

Walter Ramsey

Some people hate it - others like it...  that's life 

[rc]

Some people hate it - others like it...  that's life 

I first read that to say "some people hate it, others dislike it..."

For the whole Mozart thing, I always took that to be the resolution of the cadence and the purpose is to emphasise that effect.  It's no strict rule, but most of the time it makes sense to soften the resolution.  Musical sense that is, it sounds good, gives a close to the idea.

[ramseytheii]

I first read that to say "some people hate it, others dislike it..."

For the whole Mozart thing, I always took that to be the resolution of the cadence and the purpose is to emphasise that effect.  It's no strict rule, but most of the time it makes sense to soften the resolution.  Musical sense that is, it sounds good, gives a close to the idea.

It has unfortunately the opposite effect.  It's like starting a statement strong and finishing it like this:
"Give me liberty or give me death!!!"

And furthermore how does one emphasize a resolution by de-emphasizing it?  This kind of affect, which is prevalent in other ways in today's Mozart interpretation, effectively castrates the virile spirit of his music, and turns it into sickly-sweet wish-wash.  For real Mozart, I go to people like F. Gulda, sometimes even Gould, and of course Richter, who never put any of this outrageous swishiness into his performances. 

I had a delayed revelation after the first time i heard Callas sing Mozart; she was singing the Countess' aria "Dove sono" and I thought it was atrocious.  It sounded like a wall of sound with no nuance, no charm, nothing.  But the sound stayed in my mind no matter how much I wanted it to go away, and then I realized she sang exactly the melody Mozart composed with no baggage, no extra affect, nothing superfluous, the music as it was and would always be.  The character wasn't being produced by pathetic little inflections, but by the very nature of the notes themselves.  Grasp this, and you have Mozart.  The problem is such a small understanding of his music, especially in the feeling that it is lighter or less monumental than Beethoven - which it is, only if you compare them - that causes people to try and "inflect" it, or make it more interesting, because they don't know what is interesting about it to begin with.

Walter Ramsey

[thalberg]

 The problem is such a small understanding of his music, especially in the feeling that it is lighter or less monumental than Beethoven - which it is, only if you compare them - that causes people to try and "inflect" it, or make it more interesting, because they don't know what is interesting about it to begin with.

Walter Ramsey

Okay so let's not call this "nuance."  We will call it "nuissance."  (But pronounce it with the same inflection as nuance....."noo---sahns."

[rc]

I'm surprised.  Actually, I think we might be talking about something different.  What I'm thinking of happens more often in the slow movements, and checking out a few examples they're also imperfect cadences that end on a weak beat where the melody descends.

An example of what I'm thinking of would be Andante amoroso of K281, bar 26.  It would sound pretty ridiculous to end that in a strong way.  A quick look through some scores I see phrases in the slow movements commonly end like this.

[pianistimo]

experimenting with phrasing isn't a bad idea.  but, ramseytheii, if you're trying to make a point about it - why did you say maria callas sounded 'atrocious?'  are you saying that people should just yell when they play?

[ramseytheii]

experimenting with phrasing isn't a bad idea.  but, ramseytheii, if you're trying to make a point about it - why did you say maria callas sounded 'atrocious?'  are you saying that people should just yell when they play?

?  I don't think you read the whole post.  My initial reaction was that she sang the aria terribly, but then I later realized it was the only way to sing it.  I can't wax poetic enough about her interpretation of that aria.  It sounded like music without any source, the technique was so complete and so perfect, as if it just existed, without any fallible person creating it.  That's how wonderful it struck me as.  It was music much like I would imagine the womb to be, with no seams, no light from the outside world, the melodic line was the whole world, and you could live inside it and never know there was something else. 

To my delight, I later read that Callas said her goal in performing was to make the audience believe no other way was possible.  She succeeded utterly with me.

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

I'm surprised.  Actually, I think we might be talking about something different.  What I'm thinking of happens more often in the slow movements, and checking out a few examples they're also imperfect cadences that end on a weak beat where the melody descends.

An example of what I'm thinking of would be Andante amoroso of K281, bar 26.  It would sound pretty ridiculous to end that in a strong way.  A quick look through some scores I see phrases in the slow movements commonly end like this.

I'm sure I over-reacted as usual, though I must say an imperfect cadence on a weak beat hardly counts as a resolution in formal terms.  But so often, in the allegro Mozart movements, I hear pianists ending virile, extroverted music with a sissy introverted chord, only at the end of the phrase.  It's incongruent first of all with the rest of the phrase, where they never offer such sounds, and also it is incongruent with the nature of the music itself: exuberant, virile, extroverted, ebullient, I daresay masculine.

Walter Ramsey

[thalberg]

I'm sure I over-reacted as usual, though I must say an imperfect cadence on a weak beat hardly counts as a resolution in formal terms.  But so often, in the allegro Mozart movements, I hear pianists ending virile, extroverted music with a sissy introverted chord, only at the end of the phrase.  It's incongruent first of all with the rest of the phrase, where they never offer such sounds, and also it is incongruent with the nature of the music itself: exuberant, virile, extroverted, ebullient, I daresay masculine.

Walter Ramsey

Well, since you dared to say masculine, shall we talk about Schubert and how his extensive use of the subdominant harmony means he's gay? 

[ramseytheii]

Well, since you dared to say masculine, shall we talk about Schubert and how his extensive use of the subdominant harmony means he's gay? 

Well, one may expect masculinity and sub-dominant harmonies to be mutually exclusive, but there is certainly no contradiction with masculinity and homosexuality.   

Walter Ramsey

[thalberg]

True.  People once thought homosexuality and gender role inversion were synonymous, but it is now understood they are not. 

[rc]

I'm sure I over-reacted as usual, though I must say an imperfect cadence on a weak beat hardly counts as a resolution in formal terms.  But so often, in the allegro Mozart movements, I hear pianists ending virile, extroverted music with a sissy introverted chord, only at the end of the phrase.  It's incongruent first of all with the rest of the phrase, where they never offer such sounds, and also it is incongruent with the nature of the music itself: exuberant, virile, extroverted, ebullient, I daresay masculine.

Walter Ramsey

Yeah, I had to pick up the score to see my mistake .  Funny how I wouldn't notice those cadences were imperfect until I'm trying to disprove someone (myself it turns out ).

As I was perusing the sonatas I imagined the fast movements being played like you describe and I can see your point - it would be awful.  Fortunately I haven't had to hear anybody neuter Mozart's music like that.  What gets me is how somebody could come to that conclusion, in such disregard for the music in front of them.

...I didn't read all of the last thread on homosexuals and musicians, but I think the point it was winding to is that absolutely everybody is gay.

[counterpoint]

To my delight, I later read that Callas said her goal in performing was to make the audience believe no other way was possible.  She succeeded utterly with me.

So we are talking about personal taste.

Callas sounds extreme awful  to me  , no matter, which song from which composer she is singing. It's the complete absence of any sort of natural tenderness, which is so repelling to me. If she pretends to express tenderness, it always sounds malicious to me.

[counterpoint]

...I didn't read all of the last thread on homosexuals and musicians, but I think the point it was winding to is that absolutely everybody is gay.

Let's say it in other words: For thousands of years, men lived in horrible fear of showing feelings of weakness and tenderness, because that could have been mistaken that they are gay. And homosexuality was one of the most horrible and contemptible crimes in these times. Now we are living in more openminded times, men can show their tender feelings as well without getting made to outsiders. But still there are some of these machismo guys around who look with disrespect and disgust (?) on "effeminate" (what a word - what an offend to women!) men.