I'm new to this

[helena37]

I started teaching myself piano about 2 1/2 yrs ago, age 35,from scratch basically, learning to read music at the same time. I really love Chopin's Etude 10. 3 and have memorized it with all correct fingerings, but cannot play it anywhere near competently. I've done the same with Moonlight Sonata and the 2nd movement of Beethoven's Sonata Pathetique because I already knew them well by sound. Other then doing Hanon's for finger strength(mostly exercises 1-31) and practicing sight reading from Alfred's Masterworks 3,4 and 5, I don't have any sort of method of how to learn and can't seem to find sources in books that lay out a program that steadily progresses. I can't take lessons for financial and time constraints, so my question is, can a person progress by memorizing and plugging away at hard pieces still way out of their reach? Is it lame to assume that because a piece is memorized,you should be able to play it  somewhat decently, if not up to speed? I actually don't know how long it is roughly supposed to take from beginner to intermediate  to advanced. I have  NO musical background or education, so if anyone has any advice on whether I can get competent this way,I would be grateful for any advice or response.

[oller]

Hi, try this link
https://members.aol.com/chang8828/contents.htm
I downloaded and printed out the whole book. It has been an eye-opener for me.
I am 64 years old and recently retired. I have taken up my long since forgotten piano playing and with the methods of this book I am actually progressing in spite of my age.
Good luck.
olle

[danny elfboy]

I started teaching myself piano about 2 1/2 yrs ago, age 35,from scratch basically, learning to read music at the same time. I really love Chopin's Etude 10. 3 and have memorized it with all correct fingerings, but cannot play it anywhere near competently. I've done the same with Moonlight Sonata and the 2nd movement of Beethoven's Sonata Pathetique because I already knew them well by sound. Other then doing Hanon's for finger strength(mostly exercises 1-31)

Hanon is useless for finger strength because you fingers (phalanges) are devoid of muscles and the muscles in the hand (mostly for gripping or bending at the middle joint) are to small to make much of a difference, while the muscles that control most movements of the fingers in the forearm are too big to be greatly influenced by piano playing. All in all your playing mechanism is developed by nature and advancing is a matter of technique and coordination not a matter of developing anything in the body (as well as a matter of musicality, rhythm control, expressivity and so on)

So my opinion is that the playing mechanism is already developed and functional and everything is just a matter of efficient use vs. unefficient use of the mechanism.

This means that technical development depends on addressing and controlling efficiency of how the mechanism is used:

1) Proper position for a given technique, avoiding awakward position

2) Joints should be avoid the friction of exaggerated angles

3) Stiffness should be avoided as flexibility of the mechanism is lost

4) Counteractions to each motion need to be countained by a stable basis

5) Accumulation of tension needs to be avoided by allowing a dynamic muscle activity

6) The fingers need to find support from other body part and not work in isolation

7) Tendons need to maintain their ergonomic paths of efficiency

8.) Co-contraction from opposite set of muscles need to be inhibited

9) Motions need to occur around the most stable axis


Consider it like a DVD player.
You put a disc on, play pause (instead of play) and nothing appears.
Being able to see the DVD you have inserted is not a matter of development of the player. In fact you don't need for the player to develop and be able to play your DVD.
It's a matter of efficient use from the user.
You didn't program the player and you didn't activate it in the proper way.
Consider the efficient use of the player (the programmation and the activation) as a "basic function" or "basic form" which will allow you to play whatever DVD.

The technical aspect of piano playing revolves all around this "basic function/form"

All exercises whose goal is not specifically musical or performance (Hanon, Czerny, Duvernoy ...) are not meant to make your finger strong or to improve the physical development of conditioning of your fingers. In that regard they're useless and a waste of time. But those exercises can be a proper way to train the "proper function" away from the distraction of musical and expressivity goals.

At the piano this means that each passage which is a "problem" for you needs to be analyzed and approached in your practice to find a "solution".

Many believe that not being able to play a passage is a matter of lack of development and hence it's nothing but a matter of time. This leads to the belief that mindless repetition (the more the better) will just make the pianist able to play it.
I don't agree at all with this view.

Not being able to play something means having a technical problem that needs to be solved. It requires analysis most than anything else and mindless practicing is worse than not practicing at all. When we find a passage we can't play with comfort, speed, control and musicality we shouldn't think <how many mindless repetitions I need before I can develop enough to be able to play this?> ... we should think instead <what's the problem in this passage? what should I address in my biodynamic and coordination to be able to master this?>

Is it lame to assume that because a piece is memorized,you should be able to play it  somewhat decently, if not up to speed? I actually don't know how long it is roughly supposed to take from beginner to intermediate  to advanced. I have  NO musical background or education, so if anyone has any advice on whether I can get competent this way,I would be grateful for any advice or response.

It's not lame but there's not such a strong connection between memorizing and efficient use of a conditioned playing mechanism. Yes the music aspect is important, knowing the patterns and the structure, memorizing the melody and understanding what you're playing is all fundamental, but we're still playing with our body and the musical aspects don't address this.

It's true that what I have posted is rather theoretical and little practical, but just think about it and maybe just releazing what you need to address in your playing will provide to you the basis to work on our advancing.

[lazlo]

I know a lot of people have bad things to say about Hanon, but really I started out with that (supplemented with music), and it helped me tremendously I think in regard to finger agility.

[landru]

I know a lot of people have bad things to say about Hanon, but really I started out with that (supplemented with music), and it helped me tremendously I think in regard to finger agility.

I agree. They function as a jumpstart on your fingers and can be useful for that purpose for very early beginners. It helps on keeping even tone across fingers and finding your way around the keyboard. But after that, Hanon really doesn't get you able to play real stuff - and that is where most of the venom you'll read here comes from. But almost all of those people have progressed so far from that very early stage that they cannot fathom a stage where someone could find it useful...so keep that in mind.

The Chang book (and this forum!) are probably the best resources you can have in a teacher-less environment. That said - having a professional look at your hands and hear you can clear up a lot of stuff that you hadn't known you were doing. Try to see if you can see a teacher for only a couple of sessions with those aims.

Good luck!

[danny elfboy]

I agree. They function as a jumpstart on your fingers and can be useful for that purpose for very early beginners. It helps on keeping even tone across fingers and finding your way around the keyboard. But after that, Hanon really doesn't get you able to play real stuff - and that is where most of the venom you'll read here comes from.

Another critique is that Hanon suggests dangerous practice and mindless playing.
This first is well know. Hanon suggest to play the exercise in a very anatomically unsound way raising the fingers a lot and striking with power.

The other is due to the fact that Hanon is promoted as a way to make your fingers stronger. So someone who believe that Hanon is not about music and is just a "finger workout" will just play it mindlessly. This is very dangerous indeed.

The point of using Hanon (with a sound anatomical form) is that the lack of musicality can allow you to focus on your body feelings and your kinestethic sense. Hence focusin on relazation, control and touch.

Using Hanon to make an "high fingers curl mindless workout" is what I disagree with.
Unfortunately Hanon has been used for that purposes and in that way by most.

[lazlo]

It's really like anything though in a way. I mean, anything can be practiced without proper guidence or direction and go horribly wrong. But then like (almost) anything in piano, if practiced correctly, good things can come. I can testify to that having followed both paths over my musical life.

[electrodoc]

I was also a late starter (40's). On the recommendation and guidance of my teacher I used Hanon to excellent effect. It got my fingers working reasonably quickly. Hanon was supplemented with some easy Bach and then some Bach two part inventions.

In order to develop fairly quickly I suugest that you keeo away from the more difficult works and concentrate on some easier pieces so that you can develop the necessary technique for the more challenging works.

You might like to consider the Associated Board Grade pieces (perhaps grades 2, 3, 4 to start) as these start fairly easy and progress in difficulty as well as giving a variety of different musical styles. You might also consider subscribing to "The Pianist" This magazine always includes pieces of varying difficulty together with a CD so that you can hear how they should be played.

Above all make sure that you do regular practice each day with clear goals in mind.

Don't give up and do be sure to have endless patience with yourself. It is a lifelong challenge and a sourece of endless satisfaction (and frustration).

Best of luck.