Chromatic Octave.

[zheer]

  Alternate LH and RH Octave does anyone practise this, am not sure why but i find its a skill that is worth perfecting. 

[franzliszt2]

They will take about 10 minutes to perfect, and you'll have them for life. They are not hard at all. They are good fun, and come in handy for so Liszt.

[mcgillcomposer]

Franzliszt2 is right, it shouldn't take long to mastet and comes in very useful...think of the end of Tchaikovsky's 1st piano concerto . Good luck!

[quantum]

I use these a lot in my improvs, but I hardly play any Liszt. 

The most difficult part I found is the coordination of both hands.  You need to remember to make the lift and fall of both hands equal.  With all the interlocking going on it is easy for one hand to start lifting higher than the other which results in unevenness. 

I practiced alternating hand technique first on simple things like a trill between 2 single notes, or alternating hands on 1 repeated note. 

The chromatic pattern: 
Remember that there are 2 whole tone scales you can play on the keys. With the interlocking hands essentially one hand is playing one WT scale and the other hand is playing the other WT scale.   So there are really only 2 interlocking octave scales you need to learn. 

I figured out a simple way to remember the pattern: The hand that plays the two black keys doesn't play the three black keys, and the hand the plays the three black keys doesn't play the two black keys. 

So for example if the LH is playing the two black keys (c# d#) those are the only black keys it  plays.  Meanwhile the RH is only playing the three black keys (f# g# a#), and it never plays the the two black keys.   

All in all the two scales:
LH = 2 black keys, RH = 3 black keys or
LH = 3 black keys, RH = 2 black keys

[zheer]

Franzliszt2 is right, it shouldn't take long to mastet and comes in very useful...think of the end of Tchaikovsky's 1st piano concerto . Good luck!

   True, though generally speaking with fast octave runs in music, the difficulty  lies in the fact that it's all too easy to just creat noise.

[opus10no2]

They will take about 10 minutes to perfect, and you'll have them for life. They are not hard at all.

It's interesting you say that, because the difficulty is relative to speed, at what kind of speed do you play them?

[franzliszt2]

It's interesting you say that, because the difficulty is relative to speed, at what kind of speed do you play them?

OMG shut up! The speed in playing the piano is not a matter in alternate octaves unless you have the worst octaves in the world. Each hand is moving at a normal speed, but by alternating them it sounds twice as fast.

[mephisto]

Yes of course, but how fast are you able to play them? As fast as Horowitz?

[franzliszt2]

OMG!!! is speed the only thing you peopel care about. Of course I can get them as fast as Horowitz! It isn;t that hard is it??? I wish I could play scarlati like Horowitz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not his bloody ocatve speed!

[mephisto]

It was just a question, and by using so many !'s your answer gains no respect from the readers.

[opus10no2]

Horowitz, in his prime, had some of the most blisteringly fast octaves ever heard, at least at that time.

I find it amusing how you think it's 'not hard' to replicate his feats of mechanique.

His Scarlatti is amazing also, but listen to his playing, then attempt to replicate the sounds.
If you fail to be able to, it is because you do not have the technical ability. It doesn't require a creative musicality to *replicate* a Horowitz performance, it requires a technique like his.

[franzliszt2]

Horowitz, in his prime, had some of the most blisteringly fast octaves ever heard, at least at that time.

I find it amusing how you think it's 'not hard' to replicate his feats of mechanique.

His Scarlatti is amazing also, but listen to his playing, then attempt to replicate the sounds.
If you fail to be able to, it is because you do not have the technical ability. It doesn't require a creative musicality to *replicate* a Horowitz performance, it requires a technique like his.

Technique to play scarlati? Fast mechanique?

Find it amusing as you want, his double octaves are the kleast impressive thing in his playing. Listne to his op10no8, now thats impressive! But obviously you don't understand stuff like that, it's musical.

So are you saying Howowitz is not creatove musically? hahahahahahaha That goes down on my list of amusing things yu've said...along wiht...Idel biret is good, Arrau is unmusical etc.....

[opus10no2]

Reread what I said, I said to replicate anything doesn't take creativity.

Therefore, you could play Scarlatti like Horowitz if you had his technical facility and were good enough at hearing and replicating nuances in performances.

[lostinidlewonder]

....you could play Scarlatti like Horowitz if you had his technical facility and were good enough at hearing and replicating nuances in performances.

I thought you had to be Horowitz to play like him?


Speed of octaves does not define a good player. Your skill at arpeggio control however does. Why was Liszt so well known and why could he blast his concert competitors out of the water? Partly because no one came close to how well he controlled arpeggio patterns. He could improvize a piece with arpeggios and bring people to tears because it was so moving. Octaves are a sinch and easy no matter what speed, they start sounding stupid at very fast speeds because they have little musical interest, and they lose that effect on the listener. Octave movements also have much less patterns possible and musical shadings than arpeggios, so it is definately not something to be proud of, it looks hard to those who do not play the piano but it is not.

[zheer]

Speed of octaves does not define a good player.

   True, with Horowitz it was his way of gaining intrests from listners, however it never lost it's musical value.

[opus10no2]

Octaves are a sinch and easy no matter what speed, they start sounding stupid at very fast speeds because they have little musical interest, and they lose that effect on the listener. Octave movements also have much less patterns possible and musical shadings than arpeggios, so it is definately not something to be proud of, it looks hard to those who do not play the piano but it is not.

They have as much musical iterest as arpeggios because as many things can be done with octaves as can be done with single notes. Never heard of octave arpeggios?

Saying octaves are 'easy no matter what speed' is just pathetic and ignorant, and dare I say it reveals a shortcoming on your part?

[franzliszt2]

What is hard about octaves? If you have an octave technique they are easy. It's simple, think about the part of the arm you need to use, and boom. People who play ocatves at stupid speeds are just unmusical and need to show off to people, and fools like opus10no2 will go PHOAR!!!!!!!!! And the vast majority of the public will go 

It's easy to see, ultra octaves man on youtube's liszt sonata....vs...Arrau's. Arrau's ocatves mslower, but sooo much better.

Opus10no2 you have to be sooo unmusical to say octaves can have as much musical interest as arpeggio's. Because not as much can be done with octave arpegio's....speed, legato, tone production, the fact that you have to pedal, and the total lack of notes you have to work with. Once agaion. I must add the SOUND is not as good, becasue of legato, etc.... The amazing  octave passages are the ones I bet you don;t even notice, such as 2nd movement of Brahms 2? Which I must add is harder than any Liszt octave I've ever encountered.

[opus10no2]

Octaves are propelled by a joint that can produce alot more volume, so their value is unique and is of course inherently different.

It's pretty simple actually, these discussions are all about you and your preference for slower tempi.

That is *fine*, but to jump on your pretentious high horse and deride anyone who has a taste for faster tempi as unmusical is infantile and rather stupid.

Also, alot of people struggle with very fast octaves, its a big subject on the forum, and to say they are easy is snobbish and offensive.

[franzliszt2]

hahaha ocatves from a joint to create volume? hahahahahaha sory, but in what part in piano playing does a joint propel anything to create volume? Use arm weight, and the joint just stays totally relaxed. in most cases. In Alkan symphony 4th movement, the ocatave technique is a totally different matter, I'd love to see that played with a joint propelling action.

I don't prefer slower tempo's, I refuse to say I prefer fast or slow, it totaly depends on the piece. With you it's all about fast.

Who have I met with a passion for fast tempo's?...YOU. And to me you have had nothing musical to say in every single instance I've spoken to you. You have never once mentioned how to produce a decent tone, or how to phrase a passage, or how to pedal decently. You just go whoar Horowitz octaves!! Mechanique!!

A lot of people stuggle with ocatves becasue they don't no how to do them. A teacher should do this. You can tell by all your posts you have no clue about octaves, or piano technique for that matter.

 You uninspire me to play the piano becasue of your total lack of passion an disrespect  for music. I think that you'd be the same with any instrument eg...violin phoar!!!! Double stpooing!!!! Horn...phroa!!!! Triple tounging speed!!!

[opus10no2]

Horn...phroa!!!! Triple tounging speed!!!

Sounds good, you're right 

Arm weight doesn't work at speed, there comes a point where the speed of gravity needs to be exceeded to increase tempo.

Perhaps I worded it wrong, I mean to say octaves have a potential for volume greater than that of single notes, not just because there is 2 notes, but because the element of mechanique is larger and can produce greater volume than the fingers usually can...simple.

I am a very passionate lover of music also, it's just that many people have different views about the appreciation of tech+mech....and you'll notice in the forum, it's much more common to reply to something you disagree with than something you don't, so my posts have a tendency to outline the things I think about differently to others on the forum, but there are also a great amount of things I agree with, but don't feel compelled to reply about.

[franzliszt2]

No, ocatves are not louder. Look the shape of the hand. You should be able to hit a single note lounder, becasue you can get your whole hand into a shape where it can strike. An octave has the 5th fonger and thumb far apart.

Of course using arm weight helps. Fingers are weak in comparison to an arm. How do you play fast scales? The thumb can only pass fast if the arm alows it to. This is my last post ever, good bye!

[opus10no2]

haha randomly? I obviously mean single notes in regular passagework, the arm is involved much less.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

What is hard about octaves? If you have an octave technique they are easy. 

There's a lot more to it than that. Compare Cziffra's and Volodos's Bumblebee (a musically frivolous example perhaps, but the thread IS about chromatic octaves..) Now both of these obviously have good octave technique, but Cziffra gets much more shading and colour in his.

[lostinidlewonder]

They have as much musical iterest as arpeggios because as many things can be done with octaves as can be done with single notes. Never heard of octave arpeggios?

Saying octaves are 'easy no matter what speed' is just pathetic and ignorant, and dare I say it reveals a shortcoming on your part?

You cannot do the as much with Octaves than you can with arpeggios, it is absolutely impossible to play octaves as fast as arpeggios so you are the pathetic ignorant one my dear.

I've never found octaves hard to play but I have found more dense chord movements much harder, octaves are naked and bare and simplistic no matter what pattern they take and it is only to reinforce the sound. Suspension of the arm allows you to conquer any speed of octaves, beginners play fast octaves with their arms and flail all over the place thinking that what they are doing is hard, what a joke.

Arpeggios have a lot more musical potential because of the GREATER variation of speed, colour and movements that you can potenially produce. Octaves on the other hand have musical restrictions because you are constantly reinforcing the same notes thus subtle colourations that you can produce with areggios are simply worse and/or impossible to produce and simply does not fit. Go play the opening of Liszts Un sospiro with octaves and see how cool it sounds.... not.

This simplistic thread actually should be put in the students board because it is isn't telling us much about performance rather some little tiny niche of piano technique.
 

[opus10no2]

You cannot do the as much with Octaves than you can with arpeggios, it is absolutely impossible to play octaves as fast as arpeggios so you are the pathetic ignorant one my dear.

dare I say it reveals a shortcoming on your part?

Anyway, octaves are realted, in pianism, to all figurations which employ repeated wrist/arm strokes- chords and other things like some double notes.

Interestingly also, octave speed is directly related to arpeggio speed and other things, because of the involvement of wrist motion.

[mephisto]

You cannot do the as much with Octaves than you can with arpeggios, it is absolutely impossible to play octaves as fast as arpeggios so you are the pathetic ignorant one my dear.

Than octaves aren't easy.

[jlh]

Arpeggios have a lot more musical potential because of the GREATER variation of speed, colour and movements that you can potenially produce. Octaves on the other hand have musical restrictions because you are constantly reinforcing the same notes thus subtle colourations that you can produce with areggios are simply worse and/or impossible to produce and simply does not fit. Go play the opening of Liszts Un sospiro with octaves and see how cool it sounds.... not.

Randomly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7OT833K2Ok

 

[franzliszt2]

Anyway, octaves are realted, in pianism, to all figurations which employ repeated wrist/arm strokes- chords and other things like some double notes.

Interestingly also, octave speed is directly related to arpeggio speed and other things, because of the involvement of wrist motion.

NO

Arrpegio's are in the movenemt of the thumb under the arm and the relationship of the arm to the hand. Wrist motion does not enter arpegio's in any way to octaves. Get a teacher!!!!

[opus10no2]

Get an independant brain, douche.

[lostinidlewonder]

Than(THEN) octaves aren't easy.

Just because you cannot play octaves like arpeggios does not mean that it is more difficult. Octaves in nature are restrictive because they serve the purpose not for speed but for reinforcement of the same note, where as arpeggios are much more flexible in their musical possibilities thus are more complicated because they can be played in many more ways than octaves.

Randomly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7OT833K2Ok

Seen that before, it is more of a joke than anything else, pretty annoying and sounds no better nor is impressive.

[opus10no2]

You speak like someone with slow octaves. 

[lostinidlewonder]

You speak like someone with slow octaves. 

Well I've never faced a piece that contains octaves too fast for me and I've probably played more piano pieces than yourself.

I am simply highlighting the reality that you cannot play octaves very fast IN COMPARISON to single note runs, THUS octaves have limitations. It's pretty simple actually, it has nothing to do with anyones downfalls simply the physical facts. When you play octaves you have less fingers available to do what you want, so octaves are restrictive in nature and thus easier to master than single note runs or any other interval. Franzliszt2 has already pointed out the misinformation in this thread.

[opus10no2]

Well I've never faced a piece that contains octaves too fast for me

In many pieces the octave passages have no restrictive speed limit for sounding good, therefore, if you are satisfied and content with your present speed limit, then I feel sad for you.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I am simply highlighting the reality that you cannot play octaves very fast IN COMPARISON to single note runs

Tell that to Alexander Dreyschock.

It's perfectly possible to play chromatic scales in interlocking octaves more or less as fast as a chromatic scale. Of course, this does require two hands 

[franzliszt2]

In many pieces the octave passages have no restrictive speed limit for sounding good, therefore, if you are satisfied and content with your present speed limit, then I feel sad for you.

No restrictive speed limit? I can guarantee by many things that you have slow octaves, Your posts show a total lack of knowledge for basic piano technique. Of course there is a limit for speed, and octaves are not hard to play fast when you get to a certian technical level. Look at all the famous octaves passages....Chopin etude.. the problem is not the octave speed, it's the legato of the octaves whilst singing the inner voices. Liszt sonata...Shaping the octaves, and getting a line of music. Godowsky etudes octaves, all legato, as if being played by 2 hands.

Tell that to Alexander Dreyschock.

It's perfectly possible to play chromatic scales in interlocking octaves more or less as fast as a chromatic scale. Of course, this does require two hands

Only if you have slow chromatic scales

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Tell that to Alexander Dreyschock.

It's perfectly possible to play chromatic scales in interlocking octaves more or less as fast as a chromatic scale. Of course, this does require two hands 

Only if you have slow chromatic scales

How many notes per second are you antipating in chromatic scales? 20+? I think a good octave technician should be able to do chromatic scales in interlocking octaves at 13-15 octaves per second.  And the point still stands re Alexander Dreyschock; he was reputed (and there are eyewitness accounts) that he could play the Revolutionary Etude with the left hand in octaves, at the correct tempo.

[franzliszt2]

wow and what is the musical value in that?

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I didn't say there was one. It was making a point about octave speeds, irrespective of musical merit.

[opus10no2]

wow and what is the musical value in that?

It sounds awesome, bass octaves are one of the greatest and simplest pianistic devices, they give power and rumble..

Of course aside from that, the extra-musical value is immense.

[lostinidlewonder]

Actually I am not going to respond, this thread seems rather childish and useless.

[ramseytheii]

Actually I am not going to respond, this thread seems rather childish and useless.

Finally!

Walter Ramsey

[opus10no2]

Actually I am not going to respond, this thread seems rather childish and useless.

YOU seem rather childish and useless