3d and 4th fingers

[Askenaz7]

What about the independence  3d an 4th fingers?
Everyone pianist has met this problem the dificulty of strike the 4th finger controlling simultaneous all the muscles  of the finger (without moving the same time the finger next to it) ,only this finger (full indepedence).I haven't obtain this completely yet. Any tips suggestions ?

[bernhard]

There is little you can do about it: It is an antomical limitation. You will never achieve independence of these fingers (one reason why Hanon's promise of finger independence is a marketing lie).

Exercising to that end will improve it so minimally that is simply not worth the investment in time and effort. The returns are simply not worthwhile.

What can you do then, besides despair?

Plan your fingering! Make sure you finger your pieces in such a way as to not use the fourth finger in stress situations. In scales try to always have the thrid and fourth fingers on black notes (both on the RH and the LH).

This was Chopin's own idea. He introduced it at a time when all the piano pedagogy insited in equallizing fingers. Chopin revolutionised it all by instead planning the fingering.

Good luck,
Bernhard.

[zhiliang]

I believe the 4th finger (plus also the 5th finger) is used quite frequently to voice the top notes during chords playing. So despite the obvious weakness in these 2 fingers, they are the most used fingers.

So besides applying or shifting more weight towards the 4th or 5th fingers when voicing, what are the other ways whereby they can be strengthened? Horowitz once said that its the 5th finger that teaches the other fingers how to play. What does he mean by that?

Regards,

Zhiliang

[Askenaz7]

I believe sometimes unconscientiousness this fingers like that strike the note suddenly louder or lower without any control and that's the point .Can you be the master ? ;)If you study about it to find the way somehow .But this is impossible .I agree with your comments but if you experiment with that opens your mind.Just try it .Complete indepedence for 3,4,5 fingers don't think so!!!!!

[anda]

i have to respectfully disagree with bernhardt here - avoiding the use of finger 3 and 4 is impossible (as far as i see). they are absolutely necessary, and their independence is of utmost importance if you don't want to see yourself in the situation of saying "i can't play this, neither this, neither this..."

but his right about planning your fingering - that's very important, but the planning shouldn't be oriented on "avoiding" the use of any finger.

what you should do... practice trills on 3-4, 4-5 and 3-5, also double trills on 14-25 and 13- 24. also, play slowly all scales using only fingers 3, 4,5 and all scales in 3rds. it's quite good for independence.

also, learn chopin op. 10 no. 2 - that should help.

[lallasvensson]

Scriabin op 42 nr 3 is my suggestion. Radical. I dont have any kind of pb with drills in 3-4 which i very often recommend to´my students. i believe this needs early training.

[bernhard]

i have to respectfully disagree with bernhardt here - avoiding the use of finger 3 and 4 is impossible (as far as i see). they are absolutely necessary, and their independence is of utmost importance if you don't want to see yourself in the situation of saying "i can't play this, neither this, neither this..."

but his right about planning your fingering - that's very important, but the planning shouldn't be oriented on "avoiding" the use of any finger.

Er... Actually you don;t need to disagree with me (and thanks for the respect! )

I did not say that you should avoid using fingers 3-4. You yourself said it: It is impossible (see, I agree with you already!)

What I said is that you should use a fingering that would take advantage of the diferent strengths of the fingers.

To use a simple example, the scale of F major, right hand. We do not use 123 12345. We use 1234 1234 sinc in this way the 4th finger will fall on the black key. It would be absurd to use 123 12345. Even if you worked day and night at the impossible task of equalizing fingers and acquiring independence (impossilbe because anatomy says so) your scale fingered 123 12345 would not sound as good or feel as comfortable as 1234 1234.

The exercises worth doing are the ones that use the rest of the arm to help the fourth finger when it is inevitable for it to play in difficult circumstances. Someone who can do that can give the impression that /she has finger independence, but in reality it is arm work.

What is the difference? The difference is that in practice, one should aim one's efforts at the correct procedure. To practice in order to gain the independence of the fourth finger is a waste of time. To practice in order that the fourth finger gives the illusion of being independent wil bear most delicious fruits.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[anda]

What I said is that you should use a fingering that would take advantage of the diferent strengths of the fingers.

Obviously! (see, i can agree with you )
As far as i know, that's exactly the point of "fingering" - making your life a bit easier by doing what you have to do the simplest way...

[pianoannie]

What about the independence  3d an 4th fingers?
Everyone pianist has met this problem the dificulty of strike the 4th finger controlling simultaneous all the muscles  of the finger (without moving the same time the finger next to it) ,only this finger (full indepedence).I haven't obtain this completely yet. Any tips suggestions ?

I partially agree and partially disagree with some of the replies you've received.
I agree that (due to the anatomical structure of the tendons) that complete independence of each finger is difficult if not impossible.
But I do think that exercises to specifically work on, for example, fingers 4 and 5, can be quite helpful.
Think about your dominant hand (for me, my right hand).  I naturally have much more independence of my right hand fingers, simply because I use those fingers immensely more.  But by practicing piano exercises with the left hand, especially fingers 4 and 5, I have developed a lot more control and independence of those fingers than they had before.  I think it's worth investing a few minutes of each practice session into things like LH 4-5 trills and 2,4-3,5 doubles.

[cziffra]

i have watched videos of supervirtuosi like cziffra kissin and hamelin, and one thing is in common for all.  if they move their fourth finger, the third moves too.

equality and independance is impossible- if these guys never achieved it, it can't happen.  (have you heard cziffra's playing of chopins op 25 6?!?!)

[bernhard]

I partially agree and partially disagree with some of the replies you've received.
I agree that (due to the anatomical structure of the tendons) that complete independence of each finger is difficult if not impossible.
But I do think that exercises to specifically work on, for example, fingers 4 and 5, can be quite helpful.
Think about your dominant hand (for me, my right hand).  I naturally have much more independence of my right hand fingers, simply because I use those fingers immensely more.  But by practicing piano exercises with the left hand, especially fingers 4 and 5, I have developed a lot more control and independence of those fingers than they had before.  I think it's worth investing a few minutes of each practice session into things like LH 4-5 trills and 2,4-3,5 doubles.

Consider this:

1.      What you are actually exercising is not the fingers, but ways of moving (shoulder girdle – upper arms – forearms – hands) that allow the fingers to perform satisfactorily in spite of their physical limitations. You may think that you are working on the fingers, but you are actually working on overall co-ordination.

2.      One of the reasons (for right –handed people) that the right hand seems so much better than the left hand is because in normal life they use the whole right side more. Consider eating with a fork. It may look like you are doing it with your hand, but you are actually moving the hand towards your mouth with your arm. If you try to eat with the left hand, you may think the awkwardness has to do with the hand, but actually is the arm that is not used to the movement. Likewise, when working on the left hand, we are unable to use the full co-ordination of the left side (since it is not so much used in normal life), and therefore at the piano we tend to stress the left hand fingers, forgetting that the whole right side is being used in playing, not just the fingers.

3.      Consequence of the above: If you want to improve your left hand, practising twice as much with the left hand is not going to help much. What is going to help is to use the left hand for everyday tasks for a full month: eat with the left hand, use the mouse with the left hand, open doors with the left hand, you get the idea.

4.      Therefore do not aim at increasing strength/independence of fingers (specially 4), since this is a misguided aim. Instead aim at overall co-ordination that will aid the fingers do their job. It makes a lot of difference to do Hanon exercises (which I do not recommend anyway) following Hanon’s misguided instructions (see his preface) and doing the same exercise, but this time aiming at co-ordination and overall movement. (So of course you should invest time doing trills with 4-5 etc. However you should not aim at finger strength or independence but at a sequence of co-ordinated movements for the whole playing apparatus that will make up for the finger’s unavoidable anatomical limitations – in the particular case of 4-5 trills forearm rotations co-ordinated with finger firmness at the point of contact).

5.      Do not waste time agreeing or disagreeing with this. Instead do it for one month, and then tell us what happened.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Askenaz7]

Well is very intresting your replies.
Imagine this :You have a "song"   witch have many melodies (voices) and one of them have dominant melodical priority from the others ,and exactly the 4th finger is ready to play the note among the other fingers witch have a job to do (some  play ,some no).Could you give the special accent without affect the other fingers and play wrong with same strength  ?
I think it is like the fugues of Bach ,different voices ,roles,dynamics,different feeling in melodies seperately and so on.