The fear of rubato and the fear of pedal - where does it come from?

[counterpoint]

Any guitar player, any harpenist and any vibraphonist plays "senza sordino" all the time. Any violinist, any clarinettist, any singer makes use of a liberal rubato all the time. The piano is the only instrument, where these basic musical means of expression are widely looked upon as not adequate or even as ill-mannered.

I just don't understand where this fear of rubato and this fear of pedal comes from - perhaps someone can explain it to me... 

[ail]

Since you referred to it, what is 'senza sordino' in the piano? Beethoven has an annotation like that for Moonlight sonata, and I keep reading we can no longer play it as Beethoven wanted on today's pianos. why?

Thank you.

Alex

[counterpoint]

Since you referred to it, what is 'senza sordino' in the piano? Beethoven has an annotation like that for Moonlight sonata, and I keep reading we can no longer play it as Beethoven wanted on today's pianos. why?

Thank you.

Alex

About senza sordino

If one plays a note on the piano, the damper of this note lifts off the string and at the same time the hammer hits the string. If the finger leaves the key, the damper falls back on the string => the sound stops.

If the (right) pedal of the piano is pressed, all dampers lift from all strings, the piano is a sort of harp from that moment on. The sound of every note, that is played, continues even after the fingers have left the key.

That is the meaning of senza sordino.

[pianistimo]

perhaps the fear is from not being taught HOW to use the various ways of playing the pedal more and more cleanly.  then, it's not a 'cover' for bad playing.  also, rubato can be overdone more easily than adding it sparingly after playing to tempo.  i'd rather hear someone do that than have everything off-beat.  if a student is to learn to play with an orchestra - better learn from the start that the beat does not rely on you.  you rely on it.  to keep the flow.  to keep the 'plan' of the piece going.  not to get stuck in a hole somewhere and have to suddenly make the tempo 'right' again.  it just sounds syruppy.  like someone's slobbering on your face.

[dnephi]

Many people overuse the pedal and rubato.  It must be sincere use, not "heart on sleeve" pretense.  It's a way for them to 'cover' their technical abilities (IE, slowing down at the hard parts for the rubato and not keeping their finger technique clean by putting down the pedal.)  It's not even really rubato when a flexibility with the tempo is abused.  Usually it's a student who doesn't know the piece well and just changes tempo based on the difficulty of the passage.

[desordre]

 Dear fellows:
 I think the problem is not using rubato or pedals (remembering that the other two also have their issues) but where and how much someone must use them.
 Then, there's another question: the study of interpretation. I agree with Counterpoint that these are two fundamental means of expression, but there are several others, that sometimes are disregarded: dynamics, articulation, touch. By the way, it's quite difficult to explore articulation and touch with a forte pedal pressed throughout.
 A last thought about the use of agogics: there are varied ways of performing it, and those differences go beyond personal expression, but are related to the core of style. Rubato is only one of these means, and sometimes is very unlikely. For instance, Bach. If you play a french suite to the metronome, you're doing something dull; in the other hand, if you use a chopinesque rubato, you are misunderstating baroque style.
 It's a paramount topic, that deserve our close attention.
 Best!

[iumonito]

Not even how much, but when.

Pianists arrived at the urtext aesthetic even sooner than conductors. 

Play with abandon.  Pedal judiciously but abundantly.

[ramseytheii]

About senza sordino

If one plays a note on the piano, the damper of this note lifts off the string and at the same time the hammer hits the string. If the finger leaves the key, the damper falls back on the string => the sound stops.

If the (right) pedal of the piano is pressed, all dampers lift from all strings, the piano is a sort of harp from that moment on. The sound of every note, that is played, continues even after the fingers have left the key.

That is the meaning of senza sordino.

Put more simply, without dampers!

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

Any guitar player, any harpenist and any vibraphonist plays "senza sordino" all the time. Any violinist, any clarinettist, any singer makes use of a liberal rubato all the time. The piano is the only instrument, where these basic musical means of expression are widely looked upon as not adequate or even as ill-mannered.

I just don't understand where this fear of rubato and this fear of pedal comes from - perhaps someone can explain it to me... 

This post reminds me of so many of opus12's attempted diatribes, where he invents some meaningless question, like "Why does everyone hate playing fast pieces except me?" and then expects people to get riled up.  And inexplicably, they do. 

You're setting up a straw man that just doesn't exist.  Who is afraid to use pedal or rubato?  I haven't met one pianist who fits that description.  And your descriptions of other instrumentalists are far off the mark: harpists use dampers constantly, and guitarists frequently dampen strings manually.  I have never heard of singers, violinists or clarinettists that use more rubato than any other solo musician.  Singers perhaps have a greater tradition of rubato, but it is often marked in the orchestral parts, col voce.

Now, to rephrase half of your question: why should pedal be used more sparingly?  Because the piano is inherently a polyphony instrument, and one that has as its nature a percussive and orchestral personality.  Vibraphones do exactly what their name implies, vibrate, but how often are they called on as polyphonic instruments?  Perhaps only in the music of Boulez. 

Pianists have to use the pedal in so many different ways, but a lot of music is better off with sparing pedaling, and the music that uses less pedal, is also probably less prone to thievery of time.

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

Dear fellows:
 I think the problem is not using rubato or pedals (remembering that the other two also have their issues) but where and how much someone must use them.
 Then, there's another question: the study of interpretation. I agree with Counterpoint that these are two fundamental means of expression, but there are several others, that sometimes are disregarded: dynamics, articulation, touch. By the way, it's quite difficult to explore articulation and touch with a forte pedal pressed throughout.

That's absolutely right, and it makes me think of so many pianists who avoid the painstaking labor it takes to vary your touch and articulation, especially in classical music, by covering it all up with the pedal.  They can generally get away with it in larger halls, but as soon as you hear them play in drier settings, like someone's home, or a hall with a bad acoustic, or even on a recording, the deficiency becomes immediately obvious.

Walter Ramsey

[counterpoint]

You're setting up a straw man that just doesn't exist.  Who is afraid to use pedal or rubato?  I haven't met one pianist who fits that description.  And your descriptions of other instrumentalists are far off the mark: harpists use dampers constantly, and guitarists frequently dampen strings manually.  I have never heard of singers, violinists or clarinettists that use more rubato than any other solo musician.  Singers perhaps have a greater tradition of rubato, but it is often marked in the orchestral parts, col voce.

Julian Bream - J.S Bach-Violin Sonata fugue        - acoustic guitar -

&mode=related&search=


Harp - J.S.Bach trans Grandjany Fuge from Violin  - harp -

Bach Saraband in B minor from Violin Partita   - vibraphone -

Rostropovich plays Bach´s Bourree - Suite No 3   - cello -

&mode=related&search=


Elizabeth Parcells Bach Cantata 51      - singer -

and that's how the typical piano teachers want Bach to be played   - no pedal, no rubato -  (there is much reverb, so the sound is quite good anyways)

[pianistimo]

you're right.  absolutely the harp version sounds better.  but, it's done in taste, i think.  i mean - a guitar will never be a harp.  and a harp is closer to a piano. and a piano has pedals - so why not use them to advantage.

the thing is - i believe that pianists aren't taught how to use the pedals as much as their fingers.  some teachers barely talk about the pedal.  some talk a lot about it and show exactly how to use it.  this means a lot to a student.  you don't automatically know how to use the pedals to your advantage unless you experiment a lot.  i have to admit a lack of experimenting when younger - and flatly putting the pedal either all the way down or not using it at all.

then, i took a few lessons where the teacher explained about half-pedalling and flutter pedalling.  then another teacher - learning WHERE to pedal.  not always on the beat - but slightly after.  catching the tones.  another teacher explained to be 'tighter' with the pedal and not let the foot be too far away - so that you can more precisely control the pedal.

i think many beautiful sounds can be made by pedal combinations - as i think ramseytheii pointed out - with using the middle pedal with the damper - and una chorda with the damper. 

maybe we are talking about two different things.  one - is level 1 and 2 students - vs college grads who are still playing with the pedal too sparingly.  it's almost like you are taught 'don't use the pedal' for many years - and then suddenly you are expected to be a pedal expert.  seems that every type (genre) of music demands a different type of pedalling. 

[pianistimo]

ok.  i have a question, counterpoint.  in debussy's first arabesque - the 'normal' pedalling routine (i think) would be to change the pedal at chord changes.  right?  and flutter pedallinging starting at measure 6 (at pp).  now, can anyone give more ideas to make it more interesting?

also, on certain pieces such as this one - i feel impusively that i should speed up when moving up the keyboard - and slow down when moving down.  it's even written in at measure 10 'poco a poco crescendo' - so usually those crescendoing places would be also little by little faster - as well as louder.  otherwise - we have a sort of flatline.  i, in fact, do not wait until measure 10 - but start the piece the same way.  when i move up i speed up - when i go down i play slower.

i agree that you have to 'breathe' life into music.  perhaps it's a step-by-step thing.   i mean - if you tell a beginning student - 'do anything you want.'  they'll probably make it too syruppy.  but, then if it is a college student or beyond - they might actually put something tasteful in at the right places.  perhaps we are dealing with two issues.  blending (like painters) where you are doing something and then smearing it.  some people put a glob here and then smear a little over there.  it just sounds globby.

[counterpoint]

ok.  i have a question, counterpoint.  in debussy's first arabesque - the 'normal' pedalling routine (i think) would be to change the pedal at chord changes.  right?  and flutter pedallinging starting at measure 6 (at pp).  now, can anyone give more ideas to make it more interesting?

Of course it's possible to take pedal exactly at the harmony changes in the Arabesque. But then it will sound very conventional, more like Czerny than like Debussy 
It's not only the question, where and how to use the pedal, but what the fingers do as well. So, at the beginning of this piece, I hold the notes of the chords with the fingers (additionally to the pedal)  and make the pedal changes really late (after the 3rd beat!), so there is a superimposition of the chords for a moment. I am not afraid  to use blurring pedal from bars 6 on.  It's Debussy! If you're not allowed to use much pedal even in music of Debussy, people should construct pianos without any pedals 

also, on certain pieces such as this one - i feel impusively that i should speed up when moving up the keyboard - and slow down when moving down.  it's even written in at measure 10 'poco a poco crescendo' - so usually those crescendoing places would be also little by little faster - as well as louder.  otherwise - we have a sort of flatline.  i, in fact, do not wait until measure 10 - but start the piece the same way.  when i move up i speed up - when i go down i play slower.

Speeding up when moving up - and slowing down when moving down - good idea for the bars 1 and 2 - but not as a general rule. Sometimes, for example in bar 6, it's just the opposite. I think, there are no general rules for rubato, it depends on the music in the very detail of it's expression.

i agree that you have to 'breathe' life into music.  perhaps it's a step-by-step thing.   i mean - if you tell a beginning student - 'do anything you want.'  they'll probably make it too syruppy.  but, then if it is a college student or beyond - they might actually put something tasteful in at the right places.  perhaps we are dealing with two issues.  blending (like painters) where you are doing something and then smearing it.  some people put a glob here and then smear a little over there.  it just sounds globby.

Okay, but you can't expect a atudent to be able to use the pedal perfectly from the beginning on. It has to be learned. If you don't use it, you will not learn it. And I don't think, that an overly clean playing - where the music demands for rich use of pedal - is better than using too much pedal. You have to find the right dose for the pedal - and often that's easier if you use too much pedal and then reduce it, instead of using too little pedal and then increase - ever in fear, that it gets too much. No human ever has died by the use of too much pedal 

[ramseytheii]

Of course it's possible to take pedal exactly at the harmony changes in the Arabesque. But then it will sound very conventional, more like Czerny than like Debussy 
It's not only the question, where and how to use the pedal, but what the fingers do as well. So, at the beginning of this piece, I hold the notes of the chords with the fingers (additionally to the pedal)  and make the pedal changes really late (after the 3rd beat!), so there is a superimposition of the chords for a moment. I am not afraid  to use blurring pedal from bars 6 on.  It's Debussy! If you're not allowed to use much pedal even in music of Debussy, people should construct pianos without any pedals 

Ah - now I understand your original post!

Walter Ramsey

[liszt-essence]

I just don't understand where this fear of rubato and this fear of pedal comes from - perhaps someone can explain it to me... 

Can you specify who is afraid of rubato and of pedal ?

You talk of it like it's a common understanding, but I have never come across it so if you could name the place and/or the persons who think this?