Bach toccata e minor

[fnork]

Suggestions are warmly welcome, I'm doing this piece soon in concert so I really need it...

Hope you can stand the poor sound quality! And some minor memorization problems...

[fnork]

I love the piece, has anyone played it? I found it a rewarding piece to learn and not so hard to play, most of it is very straightforward and surprisingly easy to memorize considering it's Bach... btw, I heard from a pianist that there's a discussion about if they (the toccatas) were actually written by Bach, does anybody know more about this?

[pianowolfi]

I love this Toccata very much. I think it is an authentic Bach, an early work. I am not a musicologist but who else than Bach can write like this? You may know the way I use to comment recordings, it is very much about if something can give me nutrition, can feed me, can give me something to live with, even, can mediate something to me that I can get nowhere else, sometimes. Well, and from this point of view (take it with a graint of salt), your interpretation speaks very intensely to me. I think that you have a good understanding of this piece and you are doing a very good job! It is astonishing to me how short this piece actually is. When I played that, 16 years ago, I had the goal to play ALL the Toccatas, I was completely in love with them (and I think, no I KNOW that one day I will come back to them, because they are still my favorite Bach compositions) and any of them was like a huge world for me, something very unique and in my imperfect remembrance any of them lasts about half an hour . Thank you for posting and keep it up!

[fnork]

oh god, pianowolfi... I need someone who can tell me how much it sucks and how much I should work my ass off on it for one more week Anyway, I also have to practice the first movement of Rach 2nd, so I do have to practice a lot this week no matter what... the Bach seems is a warmup piece in comparision to Rach 2.

As I said, I don't know much about this discussion about if they're actually by Bach or not. I think they are, but not everything in this toccata sounds "100 % Bach" IMO.

[pianowolfi]

oh god, pianowolfi... I need someone who can tell me how much it sucks and how much I should work my ass off on it for one more week

Argh it sucks and you need to practice your ass off on it for a week. Otherwise I see absolutely NO CHANCE!


(just kidding of course)

But it's Bach after all. I would dare to claim that.

btw respect for Rach 2 

[jakev2.0]

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[Mozartian]

My advice if you're truly about to play this in concert: DON'T.

Good LORD what the hell are you trying to do, make everyone hate Bach for the rest of their lives?

***rest of post edited by the author*****

[fnork]

My advice if you're truly about to play this in concert: DON'T.

Good LORD what the hell are you trying to do, make everyone hate Bach for the rest of their lives?

***rest of post edited by the author*****

CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is always welcome... Maybe you could tell me something I could work on instead of just saying it sucks?

[pseudo.naivete]

I really like your playing, its very expressive. If you want an opinion, then I'd say that maybe at times the sound gets a little too "intimidating" as opposed to possessing a more calm and tranquile sense of grace. My observation would be that you pay a lot of attention to details and bringing them out as independent "entities", the punctuations from 3:47 forward go for an example. You handle the dynamics well but I can't help feeling that the music itself sort of gets carried away by them occasionally. Maybe too much contrast in some parts that blurs the integrity of the whole, but that is just my subjective view on that. Bach is so multi-dimensional that there is really an infinite number of "correct" interpretations!

[Mozartian]

CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is always welcome... Maybe you could tell me something I could work on instead of just saying it sucks?

Actually, I gave you exactly what you wanted. Only I think you didn't actually want it to be true, but whatever.

Listen to some recordings of the piece. Try to get a sense of direction, a sense of the "life" of the piece. Shape the phrases. Make it live. Remember it's supposed to sound good.

Other than that, congrats on learning all the notes.

[fnork]

Actually, I gave you exactly what you wanted. Only I think you didn't actually want it to be true, but whatever.

Listen to some recordings of the piece. Try to get a sense of direction, a sense of the "life" of the piece. Shape the phrases. Make it live. Remember it's supposed to sound good.

Other than that, congrats on learning all the notes.

I was surprised by the first response since I WASN'T really happy with the recording, just wanted to post it to get some response or whatever because as it is now, I don't know exactly what to do with this piece, I'm not getting anywhere with it. The way I play it now is basically the way a teacher at a masterclass suggested it should be played - the fugatolike part after the introduction with a big "organ sound" and the fugue with absolutely even sixteenthnotes, and always with the same notevalue on 16thnotes and the same for all 8thnotes, rather than having staccato for 16thsnotes in one part and legato in another place in the fugue. This may sound monotone but brings out the "toccata element" of this piece and gives the fugue a good drive, I think.

However, I didn't like that teachers choice of tempi sometimes (I'm doing them anyway just as experiment), the slower parts were too fast for my taste and he preferred louder dynamics for most part, which I didn't like. I'm doing most of the things he said anyway but it still doesn't seem to fit how I want to play this, so I will make up my own version of the piece instead... as pseudo-naivete said, at times it lacks calm and that's what I felt in that masterclass, that I wanted a certain calmness in the slower parts.

[cygnusdei]

Fnork, that's a fine performance of the Toccata, congrats Here's what I would do differently:
1. In the 'fugato' section I would play it sotto voce, with sort of a mysterious mood, to contrast with the opening section. Since you are not averse to using pedal already, some coloration could help as well.
2. The fugue could use a slightly slower tempo, which naturally makes the accentuation more prominent. As you are already using unwritten ornaments in the fugato section, I wonder if is OK to apply an upper mordent to the 2nd D# (in the D# E D# motif), with accent on the downbeat.

[fnork]

The problem with taking the fugue slower is that the countersubject in quaver and quarternotes will feel waaay too slow. And I've been thinking a lot about it, that maybe the countersubject is actually more "important" or "interresting" than the fugue subject itself? Just ask yourself what you think the audience will be humming after the concert on their way home... probably not the fugue subject. The fugue subject is more like a "harmonic background" for the whole piece, at least it sounds better that way on a modern grand piano. Well, you probably get my point... Would be nice to hear your opinion on this.

btw, there's a great recording by Koji Attwood on www.whitekeys.org, great tempo choices and dynamics, and I think he played the fugue subject with less accentuation, more like the "harmonic background" of the piece, as I said. It sounds gorgeous.

I pretty much agree about the "fugato" section, again, I just tried to do what the teacher told me but I didn't like his choice of dynamics - his version was just loud the whole way, pretty much like I play it now. Sounds a bit monotone to me...btw, I use pedal mostly to hold notes and tie notes which would've been impossible otherwise. I don't use it for colour.

[Mozartian]

This may sound monotone but brings out the "toccata element" of this piece

A baroque toccata is meant to sound improvisatory.

[fnork]

Of course, I was only talking about the fugue rather than the entire toccata - a fugue that has a certain "drive" throughout - there are 16th-notes throughout it (just like the E minor fugue in WTK 1) and while there must be SOME flexibility in the tempo, this "toccatalike" drive must still be there, or, that was my original thought. But when it comes to Bach, everyone is different and it's hard to say what's "right" and "wrong". A lot of things are simply a matter of taste.

[kojo2]

I am studying this toccata for my abrsm diploma exam. Can anyone help me find an analysis of this toccata? I would be most grateful.

Kojo.

[emill]

For a non-pianist, I find it "strange" that I seem to like a good number of Bach works which my other non-pianists friends would not be interested in.  I heard this a few years back by a visiting pianist here ... His performance I found riveting and so is yours!
THANKS.

[emill]

sorry wrong post