Can someone help me?

[keyofc]

How are musical pieces catalogued?
For instance - The Moonlight Sonata/Beethoven is
Opus 27, No 2

What does the number stand for?

Today someone asked me that - and I realized I had no answer

I think that opus -means any piece of musical work, but what about the next number?

[pianistimo]

is this a trick question?  i vaguely remember one professor going on about this - and about WOo (works without opus) or composed before any were catalogued.  OK  here's what The New Harvard Dictionary of Music says:

'Work; often abbreviated op.  The term is most often used with a number to designate a work in its chronological relationship to a composer's other works.  These numbers are often unreliable guides to chronology, however.'

[pianistimo]

con't.

'They may have been assigned by various publishers rather than by a composer.  There may be conflicting assignments for individual works.  And, some genres, notably vocal works and operas, were often not assigned such numbers at all.  In the cases of Haydn and Mozart, for example, they are so unreliable that they are rarely used, the numbering of scholarly thematic catalogs being used instead (see K., Hob.).  The use of the term to designate individual works or collections of works by number begins around 1600 with composers such as Lodovico Viadana, Adriano Bacheieri, and Biagio Marini.  In the 17th and 18th centuries, and opus often included at first 12 and later 6 separate works, each identified by number, eg opus 20 no. 3  The numbering within an opus is not a reliable guide to chronology either.'

[ramseytheii]

How are musical pieces catalogued?
For instance - The Moonlight Sonata/Beethoven is
Opus 27, No 2

What does the number stand for?

Today someone asked me that - and I realized I had no answer

I think that opus -means any piece of musical work, but what about the next number?

Opus literally means work, and opera means works, but opus is used here to denote order of publication.  So opus 27 is the 27th piece, or set of pieces, that Beethoven published.  There are 2 works in opus 27, the first sonata quasi una fantasia, and the second (Moonlight) hence the #2.

For Chopin's preludes, you can play a single one from the set, which is opus 28, and have any number up to 24.  D minor is opus 28, no.24.  C major op.28 no.1 etc.

Walter Ramsey

[keyofc]

Walter,
What do you mean?  Maybe I'm missing something that you're saying,
but I have only one Moonlite Sonata.
It is named Sonata quasi una Fantasia
and it says Moonlight in parantheses below
Op 27, No.2
Of course I get what you're saying about the work - but the number?
Where do you find 2 Moonlight Sonatas? 
key of c

How are pieces of music catalogued?
For instance - The Moonlight Sonata/Beethoven is
Opus 27, No 2

What does the number stand for?

Today someone asked me that - and I realized I had no answer

I think that opus -means any piece of musical work, but what about the next number?



Opus literally means work, and opera means works, but opus is used here to denote order of publication.  So opus 27 is the 27th piece, or set of pieces, that Beethoven published.  There are 2 works in opus 27, the first sonata quasi una fantasia, and the second (Moonlight) hence the #2.

For Chopin's preludes, you can play a single one from the set, which is opus 28, and have any number up to 24.  D minor is opus 28, no.24.  C major op.28 no.1 etc.

Walter Ramsey
 
 
 Report to moderator    Logged 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Ramsey
ramseytheii@hotmail

[keyofc]

Thanks Pianismisto,
No - it's not a trick question - but it certainly does seem to be a tricky question.
I can understand that things could have gotten out of sync, but still what were they counting?
Do you know what I mean?  I mean if I wrote one classical piece - I would not write
Opus 1, No.2 -
Since These are published works the Opus - I suppose it's possible that No.2 meant it was the second time it was published.  But I kind of doubt it....

Does anyone else know more about it?

 Offline

Posts: 9611


  Re: Can someone help me?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2007, 11:34:48 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
con't.

'They may have been assigned by various publishers rather than by a composer.  There may be conflicting assignments for individual works.  And, some genres, notably vocal works and operas, were often not assigned such numbers at all.  In the cases of Haydn and Mozart, for example, they are so unreliable that they are rarely used, the numbering of scholarly thematic catalogs being used instead (see K., Hob.).  The use of the term to designate individual works or collections of works by number begins around 1600 with composers such as Lodovico Viadana, Adriano Bacheieri, and Biagio Marini.  In the 17th and 18th centuries, and opus often included at first 12 and later 6 separate works, each identified by number, eg opus 20 no. 3  The numbering within an opus is not a reliable guide to chronology either.'
 
 

[pianistimo]

as i understand it - it's perfectly ok to keep using the opus number and adding #1 #2 - if the works were composed within close proximity of one another and you (old time composer)are already in contact with a publisher and want to save money.  that is my take.  if the works are all under the same opus number...you are publishing them together at the same time for a set fee. 

i'm not certain of my answer, though.  i had a prof. at west chester who would certainly know.  if you don't get the answer you're seeking - i'll ask him.

[ramseytheii]

Walter,
What do you mean?  Maybe I'm missing something that you're saying,
but I have only one Moonlite Sonata.
It is named Sonata quasi una Fantasia
and it says Moonlight in parantheses below
Op 27, No.2
Of course I get what you're saying about the work - but the number?
Where do you find 2 Moonlight Sonatas? 
key of c

How are pieces of music catalogued?
For instance - The Moonlight Sonata/Beethoven is
Opus 27, No 2

What does the number stand for?

Today someone asked me that - and I realized I had no answer

I think that opus -means any piece of musical work, but what about the next number?

Beethoven published two sonatas in opus 27.  You unfortunately only have one of them.  The first is also a sonata quasi una fantasia in the key of E-flat major (your sonata is not in "c" but in c-sharp minor).  Since he published them at the same time, but they are two different sonatas, each one has the same opus number, but a different number identifying which is which.

Pieces grouped under opus numbers don't necessarily relate to when they were written.  It only has to do with when they were published, and it is up to whoever has the upper hand: the publisher or the composer.  Beethoven decided that his sonatas nos. 30, 31, and 32 (opus 109, 110, 111) would be published seperately, but they could have as well been published as op. 109 nos. 1, 2 and 3.  Schubert, on the other hand, never asked his Impromptus op.142 to be published in one opus, but there you have it.

Walter Ramsey

[Bob]

WoO, pronounced "WoooOOOO!!!" means the composer wrote it after he died.  That's what I heard anyway.

Generally, they're in chronological order.  You can tell the composers who wrote a lot when they get up into the 600's and on.

Made by whoever collected and catalogued their works.


I'm also wondering about the numbers within opuses (opi?).  Like when you have sonatas that are Op. 1, No. 1 and Op. 1, No. 2.  Did he compose a few sonatas as one group or in one "session" of composition?  Or bundle a few together for some publication or person?  I'm thinking of Beethoven I think.  If they have the same Opus number, doesn't it mean they are related somehow as a group?  But then I thougth a sonata was its own entirety.

[ramseytheii]

WoO, pronounced "WoooOOOO!!!" means the composer wrote it after he died.  That's what I heard anyway.

Generally, they're in chronological order.  You can tell the composers who wrote a lot when they get up into the 600's and on.

Made by whoever collected and catalogued their works.


I'm also wondering about the numbers within opuses (opi?).  Like when you have sonatas that are Op. 1, No. 1 and Op. 1, No. 2.  Did he compose a few sonatas as one group or in one "session" of composition?  Or bundle a few together for some publication or person?  I'm thinking of Beethoven I think.  If they have the same Opus number, doesn't it mean they are related somehow as a group?  But then I thougth a sonata was its own entirety.

I'll assume you're joking about WoO and leave that one for the fishes!

Numbers within opera mean only one thing: that the works were published together and given an order.  That's all.  Beyond that, everything is scholarship or speculation.  For opus 27, Beethoven obviously was experimenting with the sonata form, since he called both sonatas in that opus sonata quasi una fantasia.  The first is in E-flat major, and the second in C-sharp minor.  He probably also wrote them at the same time.

However, he wrote opera 109, 110 and 111 at the same time, even sharing manuscript paper between them.  He did not publish them as one opus; we don't know why, but the reason is probably as simple as, he didn't want to.

Numbers within opera mean only one thing: that the works were published together and given an order.   Are they related?  Sometimes yes and sometimes no.  In opus 27 they clearly are related in a philosophical sense, if not musical.  But in opus 2?  In opus 2, Beethoven has 3 sonatas, f minor, A major, and C major.  They're all unique, and not related. He just published them together, and since they were published at the same time, in one volume, they share one opus number, and each have their own number, so you can identify them.

Walter Ramsey

[dnephi]

WoO is pronounced "Werken Ohne Opuszahl" or something along those lines.

Cheers!

[a-sharp]

Keyofc,

Are you understanding this yet?

If not - try this explanation at wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_number

A single run publication may contain more than one work, and like chapters in a book, they are simply numbered successively.

There's no other real meaning to them than that. It is my understanding that much of the time, the familiar names [such as "Moonlight" or "Pastoral"] etc, were titles that the public attached to them after they were published, and not something that the composer came up with or intended at all [at least in the classical era and prior].

HTH...

[keyofc]

thanks for all of your replies !

Pianismisto- ,thanks for offering to ask your old professor - I think this is getting clearer now though!

I think it's very interesting how something that seems so simple is not that simple over time.


Walter, do you know what the Opus 27 Sonata quasi in E flat is like?  and what number it is by any chance?  (I know thj

A-Sharp - thanks for bringing it all together in one page with more info!

[ramseytheii]

thanks for all of your replies !

Pianismisto- ,thanks for offering to ask your old professor - I think this is getting clearer now though!

I think it's very interesting how something that seems so simple is not that simple over time.


Walter, do you know what the Opus 27 Sonata quasi in E flat is like?  and what number it is by any chance?  (I know thj

A-Sharp - thanks for bringing it all together in one page with more info!

  E-flat would be number one.  I can't describe it in words, it's much better to listen!

Walter Ramsey

[keyofc]

Hi Ramsey -
I guess that was a silly question -
I'm not sure how I would describe the one in c# except that I love it
and it's emotional - which is pretty subjective.....