suggestions on 'fantasy' in d minor by mozart

[pianistimo]

i'm looking for suggestions to incorporate into teaching this piece.  i listened to the mp3 and found that the beginning (andante) was simply andante - but not in cut time.  i recently told my student to count it in two.  this would be double the time that is on the mp3 for the beginning.  i think it sounds better.  but, is there a sort of choice in this matter?  what makes it sound most like a fantasy to the person playing it?

also, i find this piece to be a good exercise in knowing one's tempos.  they change so frequently here.  it's like a miniature opera.

next question - i see on page two 'tempo primo' - this, i assume, means the prime or basic tempo.  but, imo - it had never been established.  unless - unless we have a sort of primo tempo at the beginning?  or, is this 'the first' moderate tempo to be established.  can someone help me on this?

[pianistimo]

it seems to me that if the andante is cut time (or counted in 2) - if you add in two more beats inbetween (changing the tempo to moderato) - you have - voila - tempo primo.

next question:  the tempo after the first 'andante' at the beginning is 'adagio.'  on the mp3 - we have adagio being counted in 'real time' (or 4/4) as well.  it sounds terribly slow to me.  i'd like to at least have two varying tempos within this andante.  one for the 'piano' sections and one for the 'forte' sections.  if we play the whole thing - though in cut time - it would make the beat 50 per 1/2th note - or 100 per 1/8.  the feeling of adagio would be felt by the 1/2 notes.
so maybe 52 per 1/2 note or 104 for the 'piano' sections and 50 per 1/2 note for the 'forte' sections within this adagio?

[pianistimo]

if the andante is quite a bit faster (which might be hard for a beginning student) - say, if i played it - i would want to lead into the 'presto' tempo - so it wouldn't be such a surprise. 

last question:  when you get to the 'presto' - doesn't it seem odd that the finish of a pattern does not occur on the last group of c# e a c nat b-flat a g... by continuing downward so it ties into the upwards pattern of c-natural, e-flat, f-sharp, a...

i am tempted to write those notes in - as i think they were intended by mozart.  the notes that would continue the pattern (being:  f, e, d )

[pianistimo]

ok. this is what i might do:  give the student the exact tempos as on the mp3 with the EXCEPTION of the presto tempo - which i would half.  then it would all sound congruous.  basically in 4/4 instead of 2/4.

but, for a level 8 person -i'd definately make it in 2/4.  is this correct thinking?

help me pick a presto tempo for her that would fit the mp3 other tempos.

**on the other hand -it sounds more like a 'fantasy' to keep the 2/4 tempo. as i see it -if she works up to it - fine.  the thing is -the fingering would change.  on the end of the first andante - we have places where the thumb can slide from G# to A (instead of 1 to 5).  to me, this gives an edge on speed.

[ramseytheii]

next question - i see on page two 'tempo primo' - this, i assume, means the prime or basic tempo.  but, imo - it had never been established.  unless - unless we have a sort of primo tempo at the beginning?  or, is this 'the first' moderate tempo to be established.  can someone help me on this?

One sees this sometimes in Classical music but you mustn't take it literally.  'Tempo primo' refers to the first thematic tempo.  The Andante at the beginning is a fantastical introduction, with a liberal pulse.  The tempo primo is the Adagio, that is very well established (6 phrases in that tempo, with one fermata rest).

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

it seems to me that if the andante is cut time (or counted in 2) - if you add in two more beats inbetween (changing the tempo to moderato) - you have - voila - tempo primo.

Since it is a fantasy, I would avoid having a mathematical relationship between tempi.

next question:  the tempo after the first 'andante' at the beginning is 'adagio.'  on the mp3 - we have adagio being counted in 'real time' (or 4/4) as well.  it sounds terribly slow to me.  i'd like to at least have two varying tempos within this andante.  one for the 'piano' sections and one for the 'forte' sections.  if we play the whole thing - though in cut time - it would make the beat 50 per 1/2th note - or 100 per 1/8.  the feeling of adagio would be felt by the 1/2 notes.

In this case you must have the patience of Job; it's supposed to be slow.  If you have two different tempi for different dynamic markings, you are subscribing to the cliche that loud means fast and soft means slow, unless you choose to reverse that, and then you are just employing a cliche in reverse.  The tempo seems rather simple to me in this Adagio, with room for liberty, but also with a strong pulse.

so maybe 52 per 1/2 note or 104 for the 'piano' sections and 50 per 1/2 note for the 'forte' sections within this adagio?

I think the difference between 52 and 50 is so little it won't be felt at all in an adagio tempo, frankly.  What you may be experiencing is the heaviness of the forte sections, but you don't have to express that in a different tempo (50 is not different from 52 in any case), but in a different sound.

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

if the andante is quite a bit faster (which might be hard for a beginning student) - say, if i played it - i would want to lead into the 'presto' tempo - so it wouldn't be such a surprise. 

First of all, you're referring to the Adagio, not the andante - the andante is the introductory material, and the Adagio is the thematic material.  Second of all, you're contradicting your last post where you said you wanted the forte sections to be at a slower tempo than the piano sections, so how could slower tempi lead into presto?  Third of all, this is a fantasy, and there are always surprises in fantasies.

last question: 

I'm sure not

when you get to the 'presto' - doesn't it seem odd that the finish of a pattern does not occur on the last group of c# e a c nat b-flat a g... by continuing downward so it ties into the upwards pattern of c-natural, e-flat, f-sharp, a...

i am tempted to write those notes in - as i think they were intended by mozart.  the notes that would continue the pattern (being:  f, e, d )

Oh God, spare us all the pianitisimo editions.  Actually, go ahead and produce them, it could be fun.  Please don't allow yourself to think "squarely" - that everything has to be repeated exactly as it was before.  This kind of thinking ruins the end of Beethoven op.109, where a syncopated pattern in the right hand (A - F# - D#) repeats 3 times, then the 4th time he just gives an "A."  People always want to "finish the pattern" as you say and fill in the notes, but it's so wrong on so many levels.

Rather than trying to force the music into a four-square pattern, enjoy the sudden interruption of said pattern, and the dramatic drop of a fifth to the low C (the lowest in the piece so far) that begins the virtuosic arpeggio upwards.

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

ok. this is what i might do:  give the student the exact tempos as on the mp3 with the EXCEPTION of the presto tempo - which i would half.  then it would all sound congruous.  basically in 4/4 instead of 2/4.

Having them sound congruous is exactly what Mozart wouldn't have wanted.  Andante - Adagio - Presto all sounding with the same pulse?  Not even Glenn Gould at his worst would try something like that.  Why are you so afraid of contrasts?

help me pick a presto tempo for her that would fit the mp3 other tempos.

Presto

**on the other hand -it sounds more like a 'fantasy' to keep the 2/4 tempo. as i see it -if she works up to it - fine.  the thing is -the fingering would change.  on the end of the first andante - we have places where the thumb can slide from G# to A (instead of 1 to 5).  to me, this gives an edge on speed.

The fingering for the Presto is very pianistic:

2 4 3 2 1 3 2 1 3 5 2 4 3 2 1 3 2 1 3 5 2 4 3 2 1 3 2 1 3 5 2 4 3 2 1 5(LH) etc

or

2 4 3 2 1 3 2 1 3 5 1 4 3 2 1 3 2 1 3 5 1 4 3 2 1 3 2 1 3 5 1 4 3 2 1 5(LH) etc

At the end of the Andante, it hardly needs to be fast.  This is the same figuration as Liszt's "La leggierezza" but not a virtuoso display by any means.  Rather let it be free, to float down from the high register to the low like a lazy leaf floating down off a tree, from side to side, swaying in the calm air.

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

dear ramseytheii,

thank you for taking the time to respond.  in several points, i wholeheartedly agree.  but, i was not attempting to 'square' the adagio with the andante.  only the andante with the tempo primo.  the rest - i wanted to have 'flow' in the cut time as indicated.

but, the mp3 with the 4/4 time or common time - isn't a bad rendition.  and, it's more likely what my student could play (at tempo) instead of cut time.   

thank you for reminding me of the 'forte' at measure 33.  it surely is a sort of stop (including a full quarter rest) - but it seems to me that whoever played on the mp3 was thinking MORE than fantasy.  they were thinking - let's go from a slow walk to a lightening speed run.  it just didn't flow.  that is because, to me, everything was in 4/4 - and then suddenly the presto was in cut-time - or it 'feels' that way.  it's like - let's throw up right here in the middle.

this is just my impression, mr ramseytheii - but you know what - i respect your views a lot and i think you made some good points.  for one - that fantasies are not meant to be so
'classically' formulated.  they're a product more of the romantic period - even though mozart was a precursor-  he understood the fantasy idea from having worked with opera.

as i see it - i will just keep the moderate tempos and make the presto not overwhelmingly fast - but moderately fast.

if i were to play it myself - i'd keep the presto tempo and play everything else in 2/4 - but different tempi - according to half-note pulse.  it's very exciting that way.  i think i will record it soon so you can hear both versions.  also, i could try both ways in terms of added vs. not added notes to the presto.  as i see it - this is not simply a 'pattern' that is square - but a transition to the C-natural pianistically.  i take my cue from measure 28 - where we end on d-natural and start again on C at measure 29 in the rh.

as far as fingering - the thumb slide was referring to measure 10 only (in the andante) and not the presto.

[lazlo]

Interpretations really vary from one pianist to another for this piece in particular, and I think it can be a really good piece to grow musically (technically also!). I would try and find how the student envisions the piece, or their tendencies instead of regimenting a way of playing it. It is very open with a lot of the pauses and breaks between sections, as well as tempos. Some recordings to check out to hear some vastly different ways of seeing it:
Mieczyslaw Horszowski
Glenn Gould
Walter Gieseking

I absolutely loved this piece when I learned it. I just wish my teacher had allowed me more freedom musically, she was from a very traditional school, and it had to played *exactly* as mozart "envisioned". It got to the point where I had two interpretations, the one I brought to the lesson, and my own. 
So much technique also to be learned! Great piece.

[pianistimo]

but, which way did the teacher recommend.  2/4 or 4/4?  you said as mozart envisioned it - so i am guessing the faster tempo?

i like the mp3 excepting the presto which is SUDDENLY at 2/4 when everything else is 4/4.  it sounds wierd.