teaching rubato to a young student

[monluu]

how do you introduce rubato to a transfer student who has only had 3-4 years of piano and is 12 yrs old?   they are playing Melodie by Tansman which uses rubato.

[pianistimo]

i've never really thought about this in detail.  it's a good question.  almost like math, to me.  what if you draw a line and show them points that continually space farther and father - and you tell them 'that is what is happening to the beat.  now, i am going to play this - and i want you to point your pencil to each dot of the beat as i reach it.'  then, play it at tempo and then slow down gradually.  you could also draw a line where the points are fastest at the ends and only slow in the middle - this shows a return to the same speed.

just an idea.  probably a bad one.

kite flying is much freer.  but, a harder concept - because you have no sense of actually returning to anything stable.

[counterpoint]

There are two sorts of rubato, which in reality often appear mixed.

First there are changes of the general tempo. That's for time what  crescendo and diminuendo are for volume of sound. The music frees from strict, machine-like uniformity.

The second are single notes (or small groups of notes) that are played earlier or later / faster or slower as they would from a mathematical view. Upbeats are often emphasized by playing slower. At the end of fast runs the tempo will often slow down or speed up. Depends on the music. Dissonant jumps in a melody will take more time than simple triad figurations. Rhythms like dotted eighth + sixteenth are often played as 2 to 1 rhythm, sometimes they are played as 6 to 1 or even 10 to 1 (french ouverture).

An advanced student will have to consider all these possibilities.
For a beginner, I would just suggest to experiment freely with the music and to be aware of which notes "want" to be played longer and which ones you can hurry by.

[bench warmer]

Find some Frank Sinatra recordings. Have them listen to his vocals with orchestra. He was a master of rubato.

[ingagroznaya]

Bla Bla Bla. I am extremely frustrated on the subject today.

[quasimodo]

I don't think there's a way to conceptualize TASTEFUL rubato.
I just believe it comes from a lot of listening.

[ingagroznaya]

I don't think there's a way to conceptualize TASTEFUL rubato.
I just believe it comes from a lot of listening.

Huh? I can not even spell that funky word. Can't you read?

[quasimodo]

Read?

[ingagroznaya]

Latest on my American saga. My safe deposit box was drilled and contents was given to the State.  State does not have it.  Yes, read, Qasimodo, and conceptualize. The contents was red in color. It said "Passport".
How can you expect people to listen if they can't read?

[quasimodo]

I have to acknowledge I have a hard time to conceptualize the mechanics of your thoughts and how they relate to rubato teaching  .
Particularly, how would it be impossible to listen if you can't read?

[ingagroznaya]

I am here today purely out of frustration. All I can feel is a tasteful russian rubato.

[quasimodo]

does "rubato" have the same meaning in Russian?

[ingagroznaya]

Ah ha ( it does )

[quasimodo]

Ah ha ( it does )

 

[ingagroznaya]

It's something internal. It's not something you can drill, give to the State, lose or ever teach.

[pianistimo]

are you sure that the 'state' took it (the passport).  california is druggie territory and whoever took it was probably a criminal of some kind and wanting a fake id.  do you tell your consular that your passport was stolen?  tell somebody.  they'll keep an eye out for it - and nobody else can use it - or the number. 

[faulty_damper]

Young people better relate to imagery than verbal descriptions.

Have them play the section of the piece and take note that there is possibilty for rubato.  Then recommend some image that the music can be related to and have him play it with this image.  For example, a little fairy is flying around.  Then say that there is a witch behind the tree who wants to transform the fairy into a fat hummingbird so that it can eat it (fairies taste bad) and he has to make the music sound like it's a fat hummingbird...

... but the fairy realizes it has magic of it's own and changes back into a fairy and then quickly flies off to escape the witch to tell his friends to becareful of the witch by the tree.

In giving such a visualization, it's important that there is enough information given so that he can imagine it as real, including any psychological motivating factors (witch is evil/bad and is hungry which is why it tries to change the fairy into a FAT hummingbird).

It doesn't even matter at this point if this basic experience of 'rubato' even suits the music.  What is important is that the young person is experimenting with the possibility of a displaced beat.  It's not even important to tell them there is a word to describe this phenomenon at this early stage - save it for later when they become more acquainted with music and are capable to demonstrating this phenomenon with ease.

[a-sharp]

This is a good question ... I also think listening is probably one of the best tools. And, perhaps demonstrate it - play sections with absolutely no rubato, then again with. And words like - take your time here ... pick it up here.... Just tossing those out there. To a large degree, I do also believe that a really good sense of rubato is something that is not necessarily teachable - we can only make adjustments with what they do instinctively sometimes. I believe it starts with a really good solid sense of steady tempo, and rhythm...

[pianistimo]

birds swooping and gliding - cyclists speeding up and slowing down - many things are visually the effect of music. 

clouds/wind - kites - analogies like that.  kinetic balls.  water slides.  ballet.  it gets into the realm of momentum.  if you don't have momentum - you can't speed up or slow down very effectively.

[thalberg]

It's something internal. It's not something you can drill, give to the State, lose or ever teach.

Yes, I agree.  You must require the student to do the rubato, all the while refusing to teach it to him.

[counterpoint]

Yes, I agree.  You must require the student to do the rubato, all the while refusing to teach it to him.

I don't agree here.

Rubato is not a mysterious thing. There are rules for rubato. Of course you can let the students find them out for themselves. But I think, if you know some of the rules, you can shorten the learning process quite a lot.

[pianistimo]

ithink he was being a little bit sarcastic.  but, my thoughts kinda, too - how can you teach it unless you either give some kind of verbal or visual incentive.  for me, this would be watching birds flying and swooping.  the momentum going down - the lift going up.  it's amazing to watch birds.

can you fill us in on the 'rules' - because there obviously seem to be some.  it's just that not everyone thinks them through.  for me - i would say - evenly spacing rubato through a certain number of measures is kind of like sewing or gathering fabric.  if you bunch up too much in one place - it's obvious to everyone that you've got a blobby rubato  that loses momentum or speed unevenly - or gathers speed too fast at the beginning or end.  it's obvious to listeners that there was no dexterity involved - and was strictly a matter of attempting to get up to speed or slow down at whatever cost to the notes in between.

but, to teach this to someone who's partically brain impaired (just kidding).  i don't know. i haven't had this type of rubato challenged student.  i'm sure they are out there.  it's like people who trip a lot.

[counterpoint]

The "rules":

important notes are played longer and / or delayed

dissonant intervals or chords should get more time than consonant ones

notes with sharp accent are played earlier

scales accelerate to the target note (may be in the mid of the scale) and slow down afterwards


Now, the fight is always about the "how much?". This depends on the personal taste.

[pianistimo]

thanks for the 'rules' -they are very helpful.

[thalberg]

I don't agree here.

Rubato is not a mysterious thing. There are rules for rubato. Of course you can let the students find them out for themselves. But I think, if you know some of the rules, you can shorten the learning process quite a lot.

Pianistimo was right--I was being funny.  Require a student to do it but don't teach it?  Come on, that's funny, admit it.

[counterpoint]

Pianistimo was right--I was being funny.  Require a student to do it but don't teach it?  Come on, that's funny, admit it.

I thought, it was funny, but you never know...    

There are some teachers around they never ever will talk about the existence of a thing called "rubato". They will deny, that it exists. But they will not be content until their students make use of rubato in their playing. People are  strange...   

[keyofc]

In Keyboard Companion Magazine - if you want to track it down - it was either the last issue or 2, I think, they covered this topic.

[thalberg]

I thought, it was funny, but you never know...    

There are some teachers around they never ever will talk about the existence of a thing called "rubato". They will deny, that it exists. But they will not be content until their students make use of rubato in their playing. People are  strange...   

My favorite is when teachers tell you to do rubato with your right hand while the left hand keeps perfect time.   (This was someone's historical account of Chopin's playing.)  But all the people I know agree that if you do this it sounds like you're drunk.

[jabbz]

I don't think Rubato is appropriate for a studen of 12 years old, unless they're a virtuioso.

In which case it is totally in appropriate.

[counterpoint]

My favorite is when teachers tell you to do rubato with your right hand while the left hand keeps perfect time. 

    

[counterpoint]

I don't think Rubato is appropriate for a studen of 12 years old, unless they're a virtuioso.

In which case it is totally in appropriate.

What does rubato has to do with age?   

[jabbz]

I don't know, it feels tacky to me if it's done by somebody that can barely reach the pedals.
I've always felt that rubat is something used to express a certain emotion, and in my personal opinion, the majority of young pianists of around 12 don't have really that much life experience to say, express a personal feeling through Chopin op.10 #12.

It's a personal thing really. I'm not going to impose it on anyone, but I feel that when the pianist has a understanding of music, and the piece in question, the rubato will be natural.

[a-sharp]

sorry to get off track - but, how can one deny that rubato exists?

Like, denying that [almost anything] exits.

Actually - I find that rubato happens naturally at first - the hard thing is keep a steady beat, LOL - then, use some rubato with intention and control....