Presentation

[miguelcatalao]

Hi!

My name is Miguel... and i'm from Porgugal.
I didn't find anywhere to present miself, so if the mods think this is not the right place, please move this to the correct forum...

However, being this the student's corner i thought this should be the right place since i never finished my piano studies.

I started with music very early, when i was four my grandmother gave me a melodica. I played that instrument to exaustion, and my family soon understood i had some aptitude to music. At 7 i finally started studying music in a filarmonic band, learnig to read music. Though that was not the place to be, so i gave up that school, and started playing the recorder. At 12 i started to learn the piano. I studied piano and music theory for 3 years, and by then i was already studying musics from the 5th and 6th grade, though i never took that exam... I still remember some of them, other i totally fergot.

Sometime after i gave up this school, due to economic problems. Then some years later, i started again, when i was 23. I studied 1 year and had the 3rd grade from the portuguese conservatórium (though in an external school). But saddly i had to stop again, and till now (i am 29 ) i never studied again.

I would like to ask you (sorry about my long presentation) if you think i am too old to start studying again. I'm willing to spend around 2 hours a day with piano and maybe a little more in the weekends, i have a good place to study at night, i have an upright, and a digital piano, and though i didn't study anymore, i kept playing this years, with some frequency.

My biggest problem now is reading. I cannot read fast, mainly the lower staff, and i really despair to learn a phrase or too...

Well... Maybe it's time to give way to my daughter...

[desordre]

 Dear Miguel:
 First of all, welcome!

 About your question, I think that never is too late to start. If you have experience with the instrument, it's even better. All you need is a very good teacher, and time/patience/stamina to practice (that you say you have). The results will follow for sure. Of course that limits exist, but the literature is so huge that there are tons of fabulous music to be played.

 It would be interesting to know what are your repertory, and your goals.

 About sight reading, there is one and only solution: to read, as much different pieces as you can. Try to include in your regular study a section of sight-reading, and tell me what happens in a couple of years.

 By the way, I'm from Brazil.
 Um grande abraço e boa sorte neste projeto!
 

[miguelcatalao]

Hi desordre!

Hááá Brasil Terra de boa gente! (Hááa Brasil, Land of good people!).
Thank's for your reply!

This was my repertoire at the time (the ones i could remember, and i still play some of them with some dexterity, from time to time):


Bach:
Invention n 14
1º Prelúde

Chopin:
Opus 69 no 1
Opus 69 no 2


Mozart:
K 331

Beethoven:
Sonata n 13
Fur Elise

clementi:
One easy sonatina, that i can't find in the site (3 movements)

Some Czerny exercises

And i think that's it.

My objectives...

It's still a little undefined, but all i want for now is to start studying again.
I have some compositions i have done (i also play flute and recorder) and i feel i am limited by my piano skills. For example, i am very prolific playing in Dó, Fá, Sol and Sib tones, i'd like to be as prolific in other tones. I know the answer to this is scales and apegios. So i started there, and now it's getting better working in other tones, though i still feel myself a little glued to those tones...

It would be nice to increase my knowledge of harmony and overall theory, thus i'm even thinking of attend to a Jazz school, and keep practicing classical music with another  teacher.

Anyway, thank's again for your support!

MC

[miguelcatalao]

Hi...

Just to add that the Clementi sonatina, was the no 3 (opus 36 n3).

MC

[desordre]

 Dear Miguel:
 Excuse me for the delay. Your repertory is interesting. I have a couple of suggestions to you.

 First and foremost, if you can play this selection, you are able to play a lot of interesting stuff of about the same or lesser difficulty. I think that you could balance your new choices with one challenge, and other pieces that you can handle. This combination would give you a path to keep improving your skill, and the satisfaction of finishing several works very quickly.
 About playing in different keys, it's a matter of playing in different keys  . Some study of scales and arpeggi, as well as harmony and counterpoint are welcome. Improvisation is an important practice to get acquainted and fluent with the various "black-white" patterns.

 Although I have to reinforce the need of a teacher, here are some ideas of pieces to study.

 Bach: a good choice would be a fugue from the WTC, for instance, volume 1 (c-minor, e-minor) or volume 2 (G-major, a-minor);
 Mozart: a wonderful piece is the Adagio K. 540. If you want something to develop your technique more clearly, try one of the theme and variations (either complete or not);
 Beethoven: a selection of the Bagatelles opus 119 is cool. Yes, there are the sonatas, but in spite the pair opus 49 and the opus 79, we're talking about headaches. However, they're normally a great and stimulating challenge. Why not opus 2/1 first movement?

 Schubert: well, there are plenty of possibilities among his works. Difficult is to choose something.
 Schumann: I'm not a fan of his solo piano music, but it's undeniable that people play it very often. Perhaps some Scenes of Childhood, or Phantasiestucke (not complete);
 Chopin: there are good alternatives among the Valses, Mazurkas and Preludes, but I'd rather suggest a nocturne (opus 9/1 or 2, for instance);
 Mendelssohn: Songs without words;

 Brahms: his music is always somewhat problematic technically, but there are wonderful pieces in his Klavierstucke of higher opus number.
 Liszt: Nuages and/or Bagatelle without Tonality;
 Grieg: Lyric Pieces;
 Tchaikovsky: The Seasons;
 Scriabin: Preludes opus 11;
 Debussy: Preludes, book 1: 1, 6, 8, 9, 12; Reverie; selections of his suites (Children's, Bergamasque);
 Schoenberg: some of his Klavierstucke opus 19;

 Well, this list is endless. There is a great number of threads here that deal with repertory and level. I don't have the links right now, but as soon as possible I will post some of them here.

 Best wishes!

[miguelcatalao]

desordre,

Thank you very much for your reply...

Just to tell you i am talking with a piano teacher and i am starting to study again. Imagine i thought it would be more expensive but it isn't! 30 €/h... As an it consultant, double that more some changes... I'd thought it would be worse...

I'll show her your ideas, surely she will agree with some, and not with other, but i plan to follow your idea of playing a challenge, and an easier piece!

I promise i'll post here my development, and my updated and humble repertoire!

Thank you very much again for your GREAT help!

Miguel

[slobone]

If you don't have much time to practice, you may find it easier to work on short pieces as you'll see results sooner. I always used to groan when my teachers assigned me a Beethoven sonata, since I knew I'd be staring at those pages for most of a year.

And there are certainly many collections of short pieces by great composers, some of which desordre has already mentioned.

I would add the Bartók Mikrokosmos. They are arranged by grade level, starting with some very easy pieces, but all of them are musically interesting. Just look through the volumes until you find some that you'd like to learn. Bartók was a piano teacher himself, so many of the pieces are actually studies to teach you various aspects of technique.

[miguelcatalao]

Hi!

So, yesterday i had my first class with Vera...
A little bit of talking (she is a very nice lady by the way), then i played (very badly, i must say) the chopin Deux Valses (Opus 69 n1), and one of my compositions (God, i was so nervous!!!). She asked how many years i had studied till now.

After criticizing my sitting position related to the instrument, we started by making some scales, arpeggios, and "octaved" scales (Group 1, Sol and Mi), and a very funny exercise with a metronome.

Then she wanted to see how was my reading (wich is very very bad!) and... in less than 10 minutes i had read a little whole piece's LH.

So, in the end she proposed to me some work (side note... i know i DON'T have to do this particularly work if i don't want, this is something she told me, since it is a free course i didn't have do to this or that piece... )... However... These are the musics i am starting to learn:

Bach:
French Suites (i really don't know witch, there are 6, so i suppose... well... ALL!)
She told me to keep working in the invention 14, and the prelude 1 that i was already playing... I plan to talk her about the fugue too... i don't know...

Mozart:
Keep on studying the sonata (331) and start Fantasia C Minor KV 475. She said the fantasia will help me a lot on the reading.

Czerny's Velocity School, an edition by Vianna da Mota, a portuguese Pianist, would increase technique, and make me play more relaxed.

I have some other pieces she passed me, but i have that in a paper i brought from there, but i can'd unsderstand her writting!!! I have to talk to her!!!

I'm planning to ask her to learn something from the Romantic Period... But all that music is SO DENSE, and i am such a slow reader that i'm giving time till i read faster, and play a little more relaxed.

However, she took Rachs Prelude books of the shelve...  But this was because of a litte joke i said in the middle of the class, and discussing repertoire... I am often miss interpreted, i had said "Well, i don't want to play Rach, but... heheh".... she answered, "Well, why not???"

We discussed my objectives, witch i stated exactly in my third post in this thread. I have defined goals, though exams and entering any school is not my idea. That's something my daughter will do, if she has the talent, and the will, i'll do anything so that she does what she like... Though, keep on studying a little more will help her too in the future!!!

Some of her words about my playing, were: "You have such a pianistic gift! I pity you started so late, and stopped so many times.
You have a perfect ear, and everything (technique) "comes out" so naturally. Strong hands and fingers! You can still do so much! Congratulations."

Of course i still....

Have...

To work...


A lot!

[amelialw]

haha...all the best to you then!

I'm in almost the same situation as you, started early, but did'nt have a good teacher till I was 16 and a half. Now everything has been fixed but my teacher has said that it was too bad I never started out with her when I was much younger. All her younger students have been competing since they were 6 and I'm 20. 1st competition in Nov...

Miguel, you're teacher is right. You should work on the Rach Preludes, it will teach you alot of skills, well each one teaches you something different. I used to dislike those a lot but now i'm learning to appreciate them. Bottom line...they're hard.

Without doubt, yes, you will have to work alot, much harder as well to catch up with others but go for it! Cheers!

[miguelcatalao]

Hi Amelialw!

Thank you for the kind words!

My teacher and i talked in messenger today, about the repertoire again.

The OTHER pieces she told me to learn, are 3 easy studies from Duvernoy (i think these are almost kid's etudes... heheh)...

Now she told me her idea in the following time, would be to play a Scarlatti's sonata!!!
So, play some czerny, and then that Scarlatti sonata (she didn't told me wich, if there are more than one... I'm afraid i don't know Scarlatti more than that he was a teacher and friend from the Portuguese composer called Carlos Seixas, when directing the Portuguese royal Chapel. It is said that when Carlos Seixas came to Scarlatti so that he teached him Harpsichord, Sarcarlatti hear him and replyed " I think we should do the way around!" I've never forget this story!

And in reply to my complaint about Mozart's fantasia's 11 minutes, she answered:
"Yes, but that compared to great Romantism is nothing!".

Anyway, bottom line, she is actually in the same line as Desordre, when he said i should learn some easy pieces, and some (very) harder challenges.

Thank's all for your support! I'll keep posting this re-newed adventure!

[amelialw]

You're very welcome  Yes do keep up updated!

[miguelcatalao]

Hi!

Well, this is what happened since Sunday.

I am studying 2 pieces, 3 exercises from Duvenoy and have yet to know what Czerny's will i start. My professor assigned also technique exercises at 2 different keys (Scales and arpeggios, major and minor, plus parallel octaves scales, major and minor too...)

I have 1 to 2 hours study per day. Some days i can study 1 hour, other 2, some crazy days i simply do... well nothing, but i am trying at least to do the technical exercises. and maybe review what i learned back.

This is how i planning to manage this time:

Scales, arpeggios, and so on for 15 minutes, 5 in the key of G, ad 10 the key of E, that i am worse.

Then the exercises, Duvenoy are easier, i might do these first, then Czerny's... About 20, 30 min on this, maybe?

Bach (30 minutes): 10 minutes dedicated for reviewing what i have learned before, plus 10 for reading ahead. The Suite is easy to divide, since its separated in 6 movements, and also among the movements, there are repeated phrases. Though i can't read a complete movement in 20 minutes... I really suck reading... So each day i want to read ahead and review what i've read. Do you think that's right? This was the way i did it when i was younger... sadly i've never developed my reading since i've stopped studying so many times.

Mozart, much the same as the Bach, but maybe lesser time, around 20 minutes total.

After this maybe i'll have some rest, and then redo something i'm into... Depending if i have the time, plus stamina to do it!

I might as well try to have some fun, and learn something really really easy and different like a rag or a more jazzy tune, or improvise a little bit. This as long as i don't have more things to learn, i don't know if it is good to learn more than the 2 pieces at the same time... I still have to read the Czernys and the Duvenoy, although these are way easier to read than the pieces.

I know this way (studying less than 2 hours) i will not advance very fast, but at least i'll keep on going. I prefer to advance slowly than not advancing at all...

So the question is, do you thing this is a good plan? Is it too strict, or is it wrong in any way?

Second question...

I have been hearing the pieces i'm learning. These previous days (at work, one or too times daily) i open the pdf  file of a piece, and try to follow the music sheet. This seems to be helping me reading. Monday i advanced little, though i played a lot (around 3 hours!!!) . However Tuesday, i didn't play, and Wednesday i played around 30 minutes the mozart and i could advance some more or less the first page, and half the second (untill the harmony gets harder to memorise at compass 22.

So the question, when studying i find myself trying to interpret the music (do the right strenght, tempo changes, etc, has either herd on the record, or written in the staff). Also i play it slow but more continuously, since i have a more "defined" idea of the music. One thing's for sure, knowing the piece helps me to hear what i've done wrong, and try not to do it again...

I mean, what i feel is that i heard the music so many times that i am actually not reading it but... well remember it! I don't think i am learning it by hear, i mean maybe while reading and hearing the music at the same time i am actually learning and analyzing it...

Is there some logic in this?

[amelialw]

On those days that you only have a hour to practise I really think that you should spend 30 mins on technique and finger exercises. For Bach and Mozart you should alternate between those 2 so you can spend 30 mins on each.
On those days that you have 2 hours, you should give yourself about 40 mins to spend on technique and finger exercises. And then spend 40 mins on each Bach and Mozart.

How does that sound to you?

[miguelcatalao]

Hi amelialw!

So basicly you're saying what i said, but no fun in the end!!! 

I understand the idea of doing bach or mozart, alternating the 1 hour days...

However, i said this but i was not thinking about week ends, sorry...

As is stated before, i may have some more spare time on weekends (3 to 4 hours each day). I might not do it in a 4 hours marathon, but in 2*2 hours.