the truth

[pianistimo]

if the truth shall set you free - there must be a way that chains you up. 

what does a lie do?

[Bob]

Lies must hold you back or weight you down.  Clutter things up.

Lies come in the form of a web.  Which means you can't trust anything Spiderman says.

[ahinton]

Lies come in the form of a web.  Which means you can't trust anything Spiderman says.

Or indeed anything that you read on the internet, perhaps...

Best,

Alistair

[pies]

Work will set you free.

[lichristine]

Work will set you free.

o_O isn't that the gate of auschwitz?

[pianowolfi]

o_O isn't that the gate of auschwitz?

Yes I think you 're right 

[pianistimo]

i'd say that was a drastic case.  i mean, they used to have people carry rocks up stair cases.  then, push the person over a cliff at the top and make them walk the staircase again.  carrying another big rock.  truly, these people must have been a bit insane to force people to do work with no purpose.  purposeless work.

i think people get vitality from work that has a purpose and benefit from the outcome.

nothing much to say today - excepting i love the people at the YMCA.  they found my driver's license - and, when i came asking - gave it back to me.  when lost items are kept and returned - it surely saves the loser a big headache.

[fiddes]

but doesnt the loser deserve the headache for misplacing the item in the first place.

[pianistimo]

believe me...i had one for three days.  it was tempting to drive anyways - but, i remembered murphy's law.  fully expected the finder to call me.  but, as it was they filed it amongst other lost cards.  the first lady thumbed through and said 'nope, we don't have it.'  the second lady went through each one.  'here it is.'  whew.  i'm glad there are people that care!

[fiddes]

I have to admiti have been lucky when i lose things so i tend to return the favour

i found a brand new very expenscive phone on the trian a few days ago andrather then keep it and sell it (95% of people i know would do) i called the home number, got an address and posted it back

The right thing to do

and i find if you do good things for others it has a knock on effect when you need a good thing done for you

[pianistimo]

i believe that, too.  (shorty short - you may be right about too much agreement).  now what do we talk about?  let's start a war.  just a little one.  a sort of controllable one.  are they controllable?

ps my neighbors are all really nice - and the occasional times i've doubted (thinking - ok a kid got in the van - rifled through the wallet  - and took the driver's license and is laughing about it) - were all false.  so i realize now, it's better to have faith in people than not.  because, 99% of the time now for me - it's my own fault for losing something.

however - i firmly believe in checking receipts. esp. wal-mart and kohl's which get a high load of customers.  a quick way is to get to the car and just add up the items in the bag to the item #'s listed on the receipt.  if there is an extra item - voila.

ok - here's the item for a christian to dispute over.  should parents control so much their children (as what they do and say) or gradually allow them more and more autonomy even if they do 'the wrong thing.'  for instance, my parents believed that children should be told what to do until 18.  i am thinking that if it is to be ingrained in their mind - they should believe it themselves but might not show it until age 30.  my son loves computer games and sometimes swears.  my parents think i am a bad parent.  i do tell him occasionally that it is not good to swear.  but, when he does it - he does not seem to understand the concept of God himself - and the name might not mean something until He meets God in a personal way.  perhaps i need prayers for this!  i try to be an example and not swear. 

[fiddes]

A controllable war hmmmm i dont think its possible as the escalate beyond repair most times though i am quite heated in my debates when i need to be lol

[shortyshort]

Believing in "God" does not make you a good person.

And not believing does not make you a bad one either.

[fiddes]

Doing what you think is right is the key to being good or bad

[shortyshort]

Doing what you think is right is the key to being good or bad

Yes, and welcome to religion street.

[fiddes]

well not really

Religion is doing what someone else belives is the best course of action

I will never presume to tell someone what they should do therefore even though what i see in my eyes to be the best course of action i understand that those who oppose me are doing as they see best. Which means i learn to respect all views wheras religion could stifle that

[pianistimo]

granted, there are logs or planks in anyone's eye who sees specks in other's eyes.  but, can you take it too far.  i mean, should children be treated as though they are already in the military.  on the other hand, if a child does grow up that way - the military wouldn't be much of a shock.

[fiddes]

hmmmm this is getting into troubled waters really it is the magic (and the problem) with free choice,

Nothing in life is black and white, everyone believes there way is the right way

[shortyshort]

hmmmm this is getting into troubled waters really it is the magic (and the problem) with free choice,

Nothing in life is black and white, everyone believes there way is the right way

Yes, most people believe it, pianistimo knows it. lol

[wishful thinker]

Nothing in life is black and white

Wrong !

My piano is 

[fiddes]

didnt think so i have found him a rather fustrated person from what i have read

[shortyshort]

didnt think so i have found him a rather fustrated person from what i have read

who??

[fiddes]

thalbergmad

As he cannot pursuade pianistimo through debate he tried ridicule which i dont like one bit

[pianistimo]

who?  frustrated?  me?  i am not he - i am she.  she is not frustrated right now. 

occasionally - i read the bible and look at myself and wonder why i attempt to be a christian.  yes.  that can be frustrating.  but, to be embarrassed or dismayed at God's word?  never.  He wrote it.  it IS black and white.  either you can do something or you can't.  it's not like He says - you can do a little bit of this and a little bit of that.

we all sin. but, we don't ahve to keep sinning.  that's what i'm talking about.  and sin is black and goodness is white.

i don't think God is a military commander, per se - but He doesn't exactly like 'no' for an answer.  but, how to raise Godly children that listen to yes and no and will obey.  obedience is a requirement of God - but nowdays with parenting - it's 10 minutes later and still 'maybe.'  what happened to obedience?

i think the truth sets you free when you obey the words of God.

[shortyshort]

who?  frustrated?  me?  i am not he - i am she.  she is not frustrated right now. 

occasionally - i read the bible and look at myself and wonder why i attempt to be a christian.  yes.  that can be frustrating.  but, to be embarrassed or dismayed at God's word?  never.  He wrote it.  it IS black and white.  either you can do something or you can't.  it's not like He says - you can do a little bit of this and a little bit of that. 

No. they mean Thal.

You will learn to like him, I assure you.

EDIT: wasn't that a different thread

[fiddes]

Wrong !

My piano is 

Actually a piano is black and white only on the outside just like choices, once you look inside of them the grey (or in the case of pianos gold and copper) comes out

and ok ill try to like thal

[pianistimo]

jermiah 20:12 says 'yet, o Lord of Hosts, Thou who tests the righteous, who sees the mind and the heart...

so if we have this x-ray of God's eyes that can see inside us - i don't think he wants to see grey.  some believe that this era is called 'laodicea'  the reason is that it imitates the waters in laodicea which were rather bad tasting for lack of being cold or hot.  they were lukewarm.  now, don't take this the wrong way - because there are many good people who you cannot see their inside motives and may have better ones than some - but we have to intend to be good through and though.

rev. 2:15 'i know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; i would that you were cold or hot.  so because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, i will spit you out of my mouth.'  this is an illusion to water.

now, (analogy) if the Holy Spirit is poured out like water - and what we do with it - can cause it to be muddy or to be running clear - than our 'deeds' show God what is inside our heart.  that is my philosophical/theological thought for today.

[fiddes]

I see what your saying but by saying that you are losing all other possibilities

if a man kills another man is that wrong

What if he killed to protect his family??

again what if this family was all his imagination and he was all alone

The world can never be black and white!!! no matter what we do we will always have to make choices that will have repurcusions

A bloke saves a young child, that young child goes on to kill 10 people

would it not have been better to let that child die???

[fiddes]

with that note i will say good day

[pianistimo]

we can't control what other people do - but given the circumstances - one should always be glad they did the 'right thing,' imo.  which would be saving the life of a child - or protecting one's family the best they know how.

i don't think there's regret if one doesn't look back.  faith is continually looking forward and not looking back at negatives that others might cuase.  that is their problem - and not yours.  if you do what is right according to God's law and man's law - then - who can take away your clean conscience?  nobody.

king david killed many people in war, self-defence, and once - murdered a man for his wife.  but, he repented of his sins and is going to have a high place in the kingdom of God.  he was not perfect..but he never gave up.

[fiddes]

which is exactly how i live my life doing what i think is right, never giving up on what i beleive in

[fiddes]

but agian people may look at things differently and follow their own path which is why there is never black and white

Andf there is no such thing as a collective truth as every truth is different

[pianistimo]

how so?  how can 'every truth' be different.  it's either truth or it's not. 

[prometheus]

Some people need that to justify their faith in things that are clearly not part of everyone's reality.

[fiddes]

if your watch tells you the time is half 4 (when it is 5 o clock) you tell someone its half 4 are you telling the truth or lying (small scale but its effective)

[pianistimo]

now you are talking about awareness.  most watches nowdays do not go off track unless you forget to set them forward or back at the appropriate times.  i think God is like a watchmaker.  He's not about the exact time - but He knows what's going on at what time.

[fiddes]

a watchmaker?

[timothy42b]

king david killed many people in war, self-defence, and once - murdered a man for his wife.  but, he repented of his sins and is going to have a high place in the kingdom of God. 

Careful, here.

An afterlife is one of those concepts not explicitly contained in the Old Testament. 

[pianistimo]

he revealed this to david in inspiration to his own psalms, imo.  psalm78:70 is one among many. ' he also chose david His servant...' also isaiah 22:22 'than i will set the key of the house of david on his shoulder.  when He opens noone will shut, when he shuts noone will open.  and i will drive him like a peg in a firm place, and he will become a throne of glory to his father's house.'  the throne of david is promised to last forever.  david was promised this in person.  it can't last forever if it doesn't go on forever.  david was sure that God's promises were true - not just to him personally - but to his children also.

II samuel 23 were his last words (vs 5) 'truly, is not my house so with God?for He has made an everlasting covenant with me, ordered in all things, and secured; for all my salvation and all my desire, will he not indeed make it grow?'

also,there's a psalm that mentions david at the right hand of God.  psalm 110:1 'the Lord says to my Lord:  sit at My right hand, until I make thine enemies a footstool for thy feet...Thy people will volunteer freely in the day of Thy power; in holy array (ressurrected), from the womb of the dawn....'  to me this is a poetic way of saying - 'far into the future.'  the 'womb of the dawn' meaning a new birth to spirit life.

[ahinton]

I realise, of course, that you personally initiated this thread, but why oh why does "the truth" always and only ever end up in the area of Biblical scholarship, as though it has neither relevance nor credence outside this field? Your responses in this thread all seem to point in that direction only.

also,there's a psalm that mentions david at the right hand of God.  psalm 110:1 'the Lord says to my Lord:  sit at My right hand, until I make thine enemies a footstool for thy feet...Thy people will volunteer freely in the day of Thy power; in holy array (ressurrected), from the womb of the dawn....'  to me this is a poetic way of saying - 'far into the future.'  the 'womb of the dawn' meaning a new birth to spirit life.

At least one can endeavour (albeit arguably with no small degree of surprise) to appreciate that, at last, you are willing to admit of poetic expression within the Bible rather than mere literate statement of fact; that said, I wonder to what extent you are prepared to admit of the kinds of literary merit in the Bible that belong in the areas of poetic expression, allusory reference, fantasy, imagination, etc. (and I stress here that I use none of these in any pejorative sense).

Perhaps somemore in-depth consideration of certain passages in the Bible may help and encourage you to broaden your appreciation of the work as literature with especial reference to those notions alluded to above, rather than merely as some inviolable and inflexible 2,000-year-old (and therefore well outmoded) handbook for living.

I'd be interested in your take on this.

To return to a broader consideration of the notion of "the truth", in may be worth noting that, in chapter 8 ("Rome", pp. 136-137) of his book "Alone" (Chapman & Hall, London, 1921), the Scots writer Norman Douglas (1868-1952) wrote:

Therefore the sage will go his way,
prepared to find himself
growing ever more out of sympathy
with vulgar trends of opinion...

He scorns to make proselytes among his fellows:
they are not worth it.
He has better things to do.
While others nurse their griefs,
he nurses his joy.
He endeavours to find himself
at no matter what cost,
and to be true to that self when found -
a worthy and ample occupation for a lifetime.

One may reasonably presume that Douglas either had in mind or was subconsciously recalling the lines
This above all: to thine ownself be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man
which, of course, are found in Shakespeare's Hamlet.

How and to what extent (if any) this/these can be taken as impinging upon "the truth" as you refer to it - i.e. a notion of something capable of "setting one free" - is hard, if not actually impossible, to say with any certainty, especially in the absence of a more specific definition of such "freedom"; "freedom", after all, cannot merely exist in vacuo as some kind of stand-alone state - one has to be free from something in order to claim freedom, surely?

Best,

Alistair

[fiddes]

Alistair,

What you must remember is for pianistimo the bible is the only truth. So in essence for her the truth and the bible walk hand in hand

For me there is no one truth, but each truth is defined by the person telling it!!!!

[ahinton]

Alistair,

What you must remember is for pianistimo the bible is the only truth. So in essence for her the truth and the bible walk hand in hand

I am aware of pianistimo's reliance on the Bible; however, since she has now (for the first time, in my experience) apparently opened her mind to the possibility of poetic (i.e. non-literal) expression therein, she might be taken as arriving at the point where she could absorb a view of truth that is not so set as previously - or am I being unduly optimistic?...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

as i see it, we will always be limited by time and space until we surpass it.  therefore - you can believe you are free - but you may not totally be free until you experience something new.  unchained from deception.  actually seeing light.  we can't look at light right now.  it's too bright for us.  perhaps this is also an analogy - but i believe someday it will be a truth.  we have literal eyes right now.  what will we have in a new body to see with.  something that can't be blinded?

[fiddes]

i hope your right alister but i am always a sucker for an optermistic point of view :-p

[thalbergmad]

thalbergmad

As he cannot pursuade pianistimo through debate he tried ridicule which i dont like one bit

Don't read my posts then.

I don't have to try ridicule, it comes naturally and she is far better at doing it to herself.

Thal

[ramseytheii]

thalbergmad

As he cannot pursuade pianistimo through debate he tried ridicule which i dont like one bit

I think nobody is trying to persude pianitisimo, she won't be persuaded.  In fact, we don't need her to realize the truth to know it's right.  It's enough for us just to see that she is a believer in a 6,000 year old earth, who believes Adam and Eve rode to church on dinosaurs, and that she is someone who claims to hold the Bible as fact, yet can cut out all the bits she doesn't like or finds old-fashioned.  We don't need her to see it too.  And, I support the ridicule.  She should too - it says in the Bible that Christians can expect to be ridiculed for their beliefs, which will seem absurd to most people (I wonder why that is?)  If that didn't come to pass, the bible wouldn't be telling the truth.

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

walter ramsey - don't worry.  i like to give you a hard time, too.  charles rosen, in my book, is somewhat of an eccentrist when it comes to musical history.  so if i am that to you with religious history - so be it.  there's always a bit of misunderstanding when people take ration too far.  'if this was so - then this might or must have been so...'

the fact is - everyone is probably somewhat off on the origins of the earth.  not being a scientist - the bible is my sourceguide and i really don't have anything more to say on the subject.  it makes things rather simple.  perhaps that is what people like to laugh at.

however, i have limited time - and i would like to spend some of it practicing.  (getting out the keyboard right now). say, what do you think of adding octaves in the rh on the second page (at the top) of the first invention of bach -starting at the C#?  maybe even more as one gets nearer the end.  a sort of organ finale.  despite being an 'invention' and step-by-step teaching tool.

[thalbergmad]

I don't want people to think that i dislike her, in fact the complete reverse is the truth.

She is such an angel, that i am probably included in her prayers as no doubt we all are. I admit that i allow myself to get wound up by her theories, but i assure everyone i do not intend to give offence. My attempts to ridicule her are born out of sheer frustration.

So just for the record:

I LOVE YOU PIANISTIMO.

Thal

[pianistimo]

i don't know if i'm an angel - but i do pray for you all.  and, just so you don't feel badly - i also pray for myself.  btw, i like you too, thal.  susan

[fiddes]

and so the truth emerges about the feelings of thal and pianistimo

how ironic is it that it would be on a thread named 'the truth'