how long does it take to learn to play piano at least a bit

[pacy]

I am in my 20s and decided to learn to play piano .
I was just wodering how long does it take ? I do have a neighbour who beeen doing it for like 5 years and still playing terrible so I was just wodering if in One year I would be able to play some song or so ..

I have no musical experinces and cant read notes so far ..

[quasimodo]

It just depends on how dedicated you are and how smart is your teacher.
You would and should definitely be able to play pieces after one year.

[nodrog]

I am in my 20s and decided to learn to play piano .
I was just wodering how long does it take ? I do have a neighbour who beeen doing it for like 5 years and still playing terrible so I was just wodering if in One year I would be able to play some song or so ..

I have no musical experinces and cant read notes so far ..

[/quote
Started with a keyboard, then an electric piano as my wife showed some interest. Tried lessons with a wonderful person, very patient, but I refuse to try achieving levels??.  This music is for the only person likely to be interested. ME.  Marie recognises some music - she must do I hammer it out often enough. Enjoy what you play now, record it, I guarantee in 5 years it will sound much better when you played it first.
Music, the best end to a stressful day!

[timothy42b]

I have no musical experinces and cant read notes so far ..

You're lucky, you're young enough.  I think you can learn to read notes up to 30 for sure and maybe up to 40.  After that it is unlikely.

Assuming you have average ability and a life outside the piano room, I would predict:  The first year you won't want to play in public.  After two years you would be able to sit down and bang out Christmas carols, Happy Birthday, etc., for unsophisticated audiences.  You'd probably be able to handle simplifed hymns at real church services but you'd struggle with SATB or service music.  Somewhere between 2 and 4 years you'll confidently handle four part hymns, chants, simple preludes, and be able to gig with rock bands. 

For playing Chopin and Rachmaninoff concertoes with orchestra - well,  minimum 8 years but more likely never. 

[mikem]

Hi Timothy.
I'm a new member on this forum.
I don't quite understand why there should be an age limit to learning notes.
I'm 56. I started learning piano about 9 months ago, had been singing in two choirs from 6 months before that.
I have no problems with reading notes, a bit slow progress maybe, but no problems!
And I can play basic hymns at this stage. And I am quite a dunce at learning!
Best wishes to everyone on this forum.
 

[timothy42b]

I don't quite understand why there should be an age limit to learning notes.
I'm 56. I started learning piano about 9 months ago, had been singing in two choirs from 6 months before that.
I have no problems with reading notes, a bit slow progress maybe, but no problems!
And I can play basic hymns at this stage. And I am quite a dunce at learning!
Best wishes to everyone on this forum.
 

I think that you are considerably ahead of average.  Whether that is in spite of, or because of your age I don't know, but it's wonderful.

Did you have some early exposure to notes and rhythms? 

I have been singing in choirs and playing in bands since about age 12, and am now 54.  During the past few years I have seen many adults above 50 join church choirs or start guitar.  None succeeded, and I've come to think that reading music is like learning a new language:  after 50 success is possible, but in practice so rare as to be almost nonexistent. 

Playing basic hymns after 9 months is very impressive.  I started doing church services after about 1.5 years, and it took enormous effort to be able to play simplified block chord hymns.  Initially I spent at least an hour practice time for every minute of playing time.   Now at a year later I can play most unsimplified SATB hymns given sufficient preparation time, or simplified ones nearly at sight. 

[rc]

Hey Pacy.  Your neighbour must be doing something wrong to be sounding horrible after 5 years.  I've met someone who'd been playing for 10 years, I was surprised to see how much more progress I'd made after 3 years, until I saw her practice habits and attitudes, I realized she must either not care that much about music or is genuinely too proud to take anybodys advice.

That's the first requirement, truely wanting to play the music, which will carry you through times of disappointment or doubt.

The rest could be summed up as discipline.  Practicing daily, maintaining focus (easy to say!), finding information.  A teacher can be a big help, when picking teachers make sure they know what you intend on achieving, and that they meet your requirements as well.

Performing becomes important, at least for me it's very tough to learn music without at some point playing it for others.  I agree with Tim that it may take up to a year to get some of the basics down, but after you have some competance don't be afraid to perform if you feel the urge!  Whatever level you are at, there is a lot of good music that's accessible to beginners.  One common pitfall is taking on pieces beyond a students level - you can play beginners repertoire to a high standard early on, but you will butcher an advanced piece by taking it on too soon.

Have fun Pacy, be sure to come in with any other questions you might have!

[cnmrhyan]

I'm 38 & started lessons last year.  If you are dedicated to practicing often you will do just fine.  Both my daughters play piano-that's what inspired me to try. My oldest (she's 15 & plays college level music) told me that it would be years before I could play anything.  Well I totally proved her wrong!!!  I'm playing in levels 4 & 5 (Faber & Alfred Series of books)now.  It takes me sooooo much longer to learn songs than it does them but I knew I would have to work harder at it because of my age. 

If you are serious about learning you can do it!  Have faith in yourself & realize that some weeks it will seem like you can't remember how to play anything & then the next week you will find it incredibly easy.  Keep at it and most of all enjoy the experience.  You will never regret it, you will only have regrets if you don't try. 

I started with the Adult Faber Series and would recommend it.  Alfred has one too but it was overwhelming and confusing to me.  Also the level 1 songs here in piano street are great to play.

Good luck & have fun!  You won't be disappointed!

[mikem]

Hi timothy.
When I say play hymns, I mean the very basic"The easiest book of hymns" type keeping the left hand where it is!
No complicated chords!
I've been interested in music all my life, particularly classical, and I'm fairly good at picking up languages and pronunciation. I'm in the church choir and Medway opera, and even at my advanced age have no intention of giving up! I'm loving it! and learning the piano, I know it will take a long time, but so does learning a language!
I certainly don't feel that age is a barrier, particularly in my case!
Best wishes
from Mikem

[timothy42b]

Hi timothy.
When I say play hymns, I mean the very basic"The easiest book of hymns" type keeping the left hand where it is!
No complicated chords!

That's still good, you seem to be making great progress. Keep at it! 

[pacy]

Thanks everybody for reply. 
 So hopefully I will start soon I just need to find good teacher now. Do you think that I can learn notes by myslef ? Or is it better to get teacher ? I suposed that teacher would be better as I am not musical talent.
Am still in university so I am get used of learning and studing so  hopefully i wont have problem with that. 

Anyway thanks again , your replies support my decision even more   

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

Some very interesting points here. I am not sure if I would agree with some, but I would like to jab at a question. What does age has to do with anything? In my opinion, adults have more logical capacity and want to learn, whilst the child may not have the passion for learning and may not follow the teacher's advice on practicing. The only thing that could possibly suggest that children learn faster is that they simply have alot more time on their hands. Adults have work, family, friends, hobbies, etc. Children don't. I think that the thought that children learn faster is just either a stereotype or an ingrained assumption.

[rc]

I'm doubtful about that age thing too, but I have to admit I don't know what it's like to be old, heh

[kmac]

For playing Chopin and Rachmaninoff concertoes with orchestra - well,  minimum 8 years but more likely never. 

Is this really the case for a person starting in their 20's?  I've just started playing (learning) at 31.  I must be doomed to never play any of the great composers.  Has anyone out there started late and progressed to a level of being able to play Chopin?  Please don't tell me I'm doomed to bang out Billy Joel tunes at parties. 

[kimba1055]

Is this really the case for a person starting in their 20's?  I've just started playing (learning) at 31.  I must be doomed to never play any of the great composers.  Has anyone out there started late and progressed to a level of being able to play Chopin?  Please don't tell me I'm doomed to bang out Billy Joel tunes at parties. 

oh i'm 32 i begin to learn piano at 28  and i believe i wasted my first 2 years because i never practice more than half hour ,then i got me a real piano and i started to practice like 2 ,3 4,5 hours a day and i think i'm doing great maybe in two more years i'm going to be very happy with myself.

  this video are from 1 year ago i don't have nothing resen  sorry for my english .

[timothy42b]

Is this really the case for a person starting in their 20's?  I've just started playing (learning) at 31.  I must be doomed to never play any of the great composers.  Has anyone out there started late and progressed to a level of being able to play Chopin?  Please don't tell me I'm doomed to bang out Billy Joel tunes at parties. 

Hey, don't get discouraged.  I'm not an expert, just a beginner like you.  It's an opinion based on some logic and observation, but it's not scientific truth.. 

Besides, give yourself 8 years and you're only 39.  I used the eight year figure because it is generally accepted that in most fields from chess to gymnastics, running to piano, once you get serious about improving you make progress for about 8 years.  Then you plateau.  Then eventually age starts to erode your abilities and you slowly decline.  For you who knows?  might be 4 years or 12.

I don't think you're going to make it to Chopin or Rachmaninoff in a couple of years though.  Is 6 to 8 unreasonable? 

But you could be playing in church or gigging with a rock band long before that! 

[overscore]

In my experience people over about 25 make poor first time instrumentalists because they are afraid of looking foolish. That's the number one obstacle as I see it: pride. They feel stupid having to learn from scratch like a five year old, and having to play childish pieces, and... do homework! After a few weeks they find an excuse that will allow them to save face and bow out.

I played guitar for 20 years, so when I started learning piano two years ago I was prepared for the shock to my ego. And indeed it was brutal... I felt stupid and like a nine year old having to learn scales all over again, and having my fingers exhibit no sense of co-ordination whatsoever. But I knew it would pass and it did. Now I can play reasonably well and can sight read to some degree too.

So if you can abandon your pride, resign yourself to hours of practice and give up a chunk of your adult social calendar... then yes you can do it, no matter how old you are. Just think like a kid!

[kmac]

In my experience people over about 25 make poor first time instrumentalists because they are afraid of looking foolish. That's the number one obstacle as I see it: pride. They feel stupid having to learn from scratch like a five year old, and having to play childish pieces, and... do homework! After a few weeks they find an excuse that will allow them to save face and bow out.

Not a problem on the pride aspect.  My teacher actually started me with a childrens book.  She said other than the pictures of puppies and ducks, it covered the same theory we needed to cover.  Given her very serious credentials as a teacher, I didn't have a problem trusting her with using the books.  I think it's almost better.  You don't feel bad about sounding like a 5 year old, because you're playing from a kids book anyway.  Though I think I'm starting to sound like a 6 year old now  .  I'll echo your sentiment on practice though.  It's a must in order to make any kind of steady improvement.

[andersand]

I think there are two parameters you need to consider:

- Are you young?
- Are you intelligent?

If both fails, it will be a hard struggle if you plan on playing some of the advanced stuff. I've seen A LOT of people at age 45-50-60 who practise hour and hours and they never progress a bit. Its a bit sad to see, really. But I can't see why shouldn't give it a try.

[rc]

If both fails, it will be a hard struggle if you plan on playing some of the advanced stuff. I've seen A LOT of people at age 45-50-60 who practise hour and hours and they never progress a bit. Its a bit sad to see, really. But I can't see why shouldn't give it a try.

I'm reading between the lines a bit, the only way I figure somebody could spend hours without progress is to always be practicing the same thing and never moving ahead.  That may be another stumbling point - there's a certain amount of courage to always be taking on new problems and never getting too comfortable.

[flashcat]

It is my belief, based on my experience as a teacher, that there is no such thing as being too old to start lessons that will lead to successful progress. (There is, however, such a thing as being too young, but that's another topic)

Most of my beginning students are of *traditional* age, meaning elementary school or middle school. I have a few that are younger, but they are the rare exceptions.

A college age student recently came to me and asked if I thought she was too old to start. I told her about several of my adult students, one of whom started in her 60's, and almost all  of whom are doing well. (the one adult who is progressing rather slowly is the mother of two of my other students who also are progressing slowly, so maybe it's genetic

Adult students have oodles of motivation, they appreciate the lessons because they are they ones paying, and they are the ones who are in charge of scheduling their own practice time. If you have a good piano and a good teacher, the only limits you will face are those that you impose upon yourself.

[debussy symbolism]

I think there are two parameters you need to consider:

- Are you young?
- Are you intelligent?

If both fails, it will be a hard struggle if you plan on playing some of the advanced stuff. I've seen A LOT of people at age 45-50-60 who practise hour and hours and they never progress a bit. Its a bit sad to see, really. But I can't see why shouldn't give it a try.

What do the two have to do with piano? I guess age does matter a little bit in terms of a student being motivated, and children do have a tad more time on their hands. Intelligence is only required to understand certain practicing concepts and an effort to practice and the ability to memorize crucial points.

[slobone]

I think the right teacher is really crucial. That and really committing to putting in a lot of practice time (at least an average of an hour a day, preferably more) -- and making sure you use the time well.

You need to find a teacher who understands that adults have different priorities and problems than children do. If at the end of the lesson you feel worse than you did when you came in -- you've got the wrong teacher.

The best teacher I ever had, I didn't find till I was in my 30's. She had a wonderful attitude -- always positive. I could be honest with her -- if I hadn't had time to practice, she wouldn't yell at me, she'd just say, "Good! So we'll just sit down and practice right now."

And she always had a practical solution for every problem. I found that whenever I did exactly what she said, things went well. If not, not.

[G.W.K]

I suppose it depends on how much you practice..."Practice makes perfect!"

G.W.K

However...I practice a lot and I am still...rubbish! LOL

[slobone]

I suppose it depends on how much you practice..."Practice makes perfect!"

G.W.K

However...I practice a lot and I am still...rubbish! LOL

Me too, but I'm learning to accept my rubbishosity. At this point I'm only playing for my own enjoyment -- not for anybody else's ears.

You have to find ways to enjoy practicing, cause that's all piano playing is really. Even a performance is just another opportunity to work on a piece. If you're playing great music, you're never really done with it.

In that connection, I was just listening to Claudio Arrau's recording of the Chopin Nocturnes, made when he was in his 70's. He must have played them all thousands of times, but it's amazing how much he still finds in each one.

[timothy42b]

You have to find ways to enjoy practicing, cause that's all piano playing is really. Even a performance is just another opportunity to work on a piece. If you're playing great music, you're never really done with it.

I think that there is a very different mindset required between three activities:  practice, perform, play. 

Practice is necessary but is the least rewarding.  Play is the most fun but many of us are too goal oriented ever to do it.  Performance is the true goal, but requires a level of intensity that is hard to sustain. 

Confusing which one we are doing leads to frustration.

[slobone]

Timothy, I think that really varies with different people.

I love practicing (finally -- after 50 years of hating it). And I certainly enjoy playing a piece once I've got it to the point where I can stand to listen to myself. But to me playing for myself is just another part of practicing -- every time I play a piece through, I hear something that needs more work, so back to the salt mines.

As for performing for other people, never again thank you. When I look back on the times I played in my teachers' recitals, or even just for friends, I could never do it without getting extremely stressed out. And I always made way more mistakes than I did at home or at my lessons.

So at this point I'm just playing for my own enjoyment. And practicing is definitely the most fun part.

[leahcim]

Some very interesting points here. I am not sure if I would agree with some, but I would like to jab at a question. What does age has to do with anything? In my opinion, adults have more logical capacity and want to learn, whilst the child may not have the passion for learning and may not follow the teacher's advice on practicing.

Simply put, all else being equal, age matters a hell of a lot.

I'd say to any adult, especially one that asks if he can play [and definitely if he says his neighbour is crap after 5 years] that the chances are you probably won't get anywhere either. Most kids don't [so even if you want to believe that age has no bearing, chances are you'll still suck] and far, far, far less adults will.


As you age you get older See kids, parents and grandparents for some of the more obvious differences between them.

You probably wouldn't deny most of those differences. So what's special about this difference? Is it simply easier to pretend it doesn't exist than, say, wrinkles and hair loss?

e.g You could say 'Some kids are overweight but some grandparents do marathons' but that wouldn't negate the fact that, generally speaking, as we get older we lose our health and fitness.

Of course we can find kids that aren't interested and busy adults, but aren't these just stereotypes too?

Forget piano or sums. Just consider the things that most of us take so much for granted that 'everyone can do' and that you probably think as such that they are easy to learn : talking, and so on.

Kids pick them up far, far easier than adults do. Period. How do we know? From kids that didn't learn them as kids.

There should be no "opinion" needed here, either kids learn faster / better or they don't - that's the alarm bell that you should hear when you say that it's your opinion [or mine - or anyone else's] It's either true or not, but not because of our opinons...and certainly not because 'adults are busy, kids aren't'

It does stink I'll admit. Moreso at 39 than at 9 too. But don't take it too far, it's not saying you reach 18 or 28 or 38 and suddenly lose the capacity to learn anything at all.

The science is answering the questions about why that is - that's where you'd need to look.

The only thing that could possibly suggest that children learn faster is that they simply have alot more time on their hands. Adults have work, family, friends, hobbies, etc.

As a child I had work, family, friends and hobbies and school. Didn't most of us?

Where's your adult logic here? Some adults are busy, some aren't. Some kids are busy, some aren't. You can even be busy for a period, then not for a period, as an adult or a child. I'd suggest that there are many things that could show children learn faster than adults.

As an adult, I pretty much have spent the last 5 years or so doing nothing other than trying to play the piano.

Of course, I'm one sample, so it's anecdotal but I think you'll generally find in these threads that appear, that many of those with an opinion about adults learning the piano can be any / all of the following

(a) Not adults
(b) Not learning the piano
(c) Adults that are learning who haven't been told how much their playing sucks and can't tell it for themselves [cf all those pop idol contestants 'Yes simon, people do tell me I can sing' 'Really?' - so they think they're doing ok [and good luck to them]
(d) Adults that can tell, but are happy with their level [good luck to them too]
(e) Adults that learnt as kids [quite often to a fairly high standard] and are going back to it believing that to be 'from scratch'
(f) The tiny, tiny %age of adult learners that can actually play a bit, but think they suck.

From this, as you note, you get myths and assumptions - but I'd say myths that paint a rosy picture for any adults that ask.

By contrast, having tried to learn as an adult, my playing is 100% crap and 100% learnt as an adult.

Contrary to your own stereotype and ingrained assumption - I'm not busy. I wish I was, because although over the past few years ago I've often enjoyed trying to play, I hate the £$%$ing thing with a passion now. I wish I had something better to do, and should that happen I will gleefully smash the £$%£ing thing into a lot of pieces and then set fire to it.

But, to reach this point, I've had the time, lots of time. I've used that time and played for hours and hours a day. Quite literally, sometimes all day.

The end result - I can't play anything. Not a single piece.

That often confuses, but by that I mean play it, correct notes, correct dynamics, correct tempo and so on. Getting a piece to the point where, if I were to meet some grand famous teacher, they might start blathering about interpretation and so on to really begin to play the piece well. I haven't got 3 blind mice to that standard yet.

Of course, I can a few bars of mostly the right notes in roughly the right order of a lot of pieces. So long as I take enough painkillers.

But, the only thing I have to show for years of practise, is a crippling pain in my right arm that pretty much means I've all but given in.

Along the way, I've tried craft of piano playing DVD, Bernhard's [and others] posts, art of piano playing book, 2 local teachers, the usual books and DVDs 'fraser', 'Neuhaus', 'Fink' and so on.

Along the way I've kidded myself a couple of times that I was getting better, that the pain was going, that I was playing notes with my right hand correctly [whatever 'correctly' is] but that doesn't last.

The latest futile attempt is this :- https://www.thefundamentalaction.com because I can't play pieces anyway, so I don't even bother. I basically just sit now playing C G in both hands as he describes [or perhaps as he describes - I've no more idea if I'm playing the piano correctly than I have of how to perform brain surgery - except for the fact that my playing always sounds crap and it hurts, 2 things that suggest I'm not.]

I usually play that C G or sixths in both hands for four or so hours a day, avoiding the right hand when it's too painful. Hoping that eventually the pain will go and I will be able to start learning to play pieces. As an adult, assuming that I get to the next stage, I'll have spent 5 years to get to the beginning, to the stage where I can sit down and learn to play a piece, comfortably.

Now, of course, I might just suck irrespective of my age. But I doubt that very much.

Besides, even if it is irrespective of my age, it doesn't suggest the mere act of really, really wanting little else other than to play and, the important part of devoting lots and lots of time to it because I'm not busy, is enough.

[debussy symbolism]

Kids pick them up far, far easier than adults do. Period. How do we know? From kids that didn't learn them as kids.



Where's your adult logic here? Some adults are busy, some aren't. Some kids are busy, some aren't. You can even be busy for a period, then not for a period, as an adult or a child. I'd suggest that there are many things that could show children learn faster than adults.

As an adult, I pretty much have spent the last 5 years or so doing nothing other than trying to play the piano.

From this, as you note, you get myths and assumptions - but I'd say myths that paint a rosy picture for any adults that ask.

By contrast, having tried to learn as an adult, my playing is 100% crap and 100% learnt as an adult.

Contrary to your own stereotype and ingrained assumption - I'm not busy. I wish I was, because although over the past few years ago I've often enjoyed trying to play, I hate the £$%$ing thing with a passion now. I wish I had something better to do, and should that happen I will gleefully smash the £$%£ing thing into a lot of pieces and then set fire to it.

But, to reach this point, I've had the time, lots of time. I've used that time and played for hours and hours a day. Quite literally, sometimes all day.



Of course, I can a few bars of mostly the right notes in roughly the right order of a lot of pieces. So long as I take enough painkillers.



Along the way I've kidded myself a couple of times that I was getting better, that the pain was going, that I was playing notes with my right hand correctly [whatever 'correctly' is] but that doesn't last.

The latest futile attempt is this :- https://www.thefundamentalaction.com because I can't play pieces anyway, so I don't even bother. I basically just sit now playing C G in both hands as he describes [or perhaps as he describes - I've no more idea if I'm playing the piano correctly than I have of how to perform brain surgery - except for the fact that my playing always sounds crap and it hurts, 2 things that suggest I'm not.]

I usually play that C G or sixths in both hands for four or so hours a day, avoiding the right hand when it's too painful. Hoping that eventually the pain will go and I will be able to start learning to play pieces. As an adult, assuming that I get to the next stage, I'll have spent 5 years to get to the beginning, to the stage where I can sit down and learn to play a piece, comfortably.

Now, of course, I might just suck irrespective of my age. But I doubt that very much.

You are speaking only from your perspective. Most kids do have alot more time on their hands and that is undeniable. Even if you have alot of time on your hands, most adults don't. Period. I am not saying that that applies to all age groups, I am just saying that children have alot more time on their hands due to a lack of time consuming responsibilities. In that way they have alot more time in pursuing whatever they want to pursue.

Show me where you got the information that children learn faster? If you would read my writing, I claimed that adults have the advantage because they want to learn, whereas a child may not.

Again, you are only presenting evidence from your perspective. Unless you provide me with coherent data stating the growth process of children and adults, I can't take your opinions as hard based.

If you feel pain when you play, obviously, you are doing something wrong. Perhaps your approach is wrong.  All in all, I don't think age really matters. We need more hard-core facts before we can continue on making assumptions.

[zheer]

    Start with a few piano lessons and see how it goes, 20 is not too late, learning to play the piano at a very advanced level can be a selfish thing to do, because the amount of time one spends at the piano and in lessons is time that could be spent on being with family and friends. However once you reach a an ok level then the time you spend at the piano ,playing for others is not so bad.

[rc]

leahciM:  That's a rough ride, I imagine our idealism about learning piano gets on your nerves.  I always want to try and help people enjoy music any way I can, but I probably don't have any ideas that you haven't heard 100 times before.  It's obviously not a lack of effort, and you're defintely a smart guy...  I'd be curious to see you working at the piano.

I wonder if you might be setting too high of expectations for yourself, trying to force it too much?  You talk about adults who suck, but I figure we're allowed to have a crappy playing stage, when approximations are acceptable (with appropriate rep).  There must have been a time when Mozarts father was ecstatic to see little Wolfgang recognize the written note, for an adult the same feat isn't so impressive...  People are cool with kids being crap when they begin, but not so with adults.

Who gives a damn about speculation of age or learning anyways, nobody's going to reverse their age to find out.  Still, it must be possible for you to learn to at least a comfortable level

[slobone]

I'm not a piano teacher, so I'm not really competent to say if your experience is typical, but my suspicion is that it definitely is not. To play for hours every day and not be able to play Three Blind Mice after five years -- and to be in pain to boot -- something is definitely wrong.

It's true that it's much easier to learn when you start as a child, but I just don't accept that it's impossible for an adult to learn anything at all. Do we have any teachers here who have a lot of experience with adults?

As for O'Reilly's website, I found it very interesting and very depressing -- since he basically says everything I've done all my life is wrong and I'll have to spend at least an hour a day doing extremely boring exercises to fix it. Has his theory been discussed here before?

[timothy42b]

Most kids do have alot more time on their hands and that is undeniable. Even if you have alot of time on your hands, most adults don't.

Say what?  I'm guessing you don't have kids of your own.  Most kids have overachieving parents and are scheduled to the millisecond.  With my kids I deliberately worked hard to avoid this.  But they still end up finishing homework after ten pm, and while I'd like to make them practice I have to agree the math was more important. 

But it's not just a time factor.  Kids soak up new skills where adults have to force it in a bit at a time.  I started piano lessons at the same time as my teenaged daughter.  She used the least efficient practice methods and put in very little time.  I worked hard to do implement everything I've learned here, and consistently put in four or five times as long as she.  Her progress was faster.  I've spoken with many parents who decided to learn along with their kids, and they always give up about six months in. 

I'm not saying it is impossible for an adult to attain an acceptable level of skill.  It clearly is possible.  And it clearly is more difficult.  If you want scientific evidence, there is plenty of it out there.  Look at memory - sharp decline after 40.  Look at foreign language acquisition - same thing even earlier.  Look at native language - none of the feral children ever learn.  Look at sports - Tiger at 5, Chrissie Evert at 5, but at 25:  well that would be nobody. 

On the other hand, 20 is not old.  20 is a baby.  It won't be as quick as at 10, and a concert pianist career is probably beyond reach, but achieving technique and fluency that most of couldn't distinguish from the pro is possible. 

[allthumbs]

I think the right teacher is really crucial. That and really committing to putting in a lot of practice time (at least an average of an hour a day, preferably more) -- and making sure you use the time well.

You need to find a teacher who understands that adults have different priorities and problems than children do. If at the end of the lesson you feel worse than you did when you came in -- you've got the wrong teacher.

I agree, finding a good teacher that understands the difficulties that may encumber an adult's path to success is crucial.

As all_thumbs (no relation) stated, one should feel happy and excited when taking lessons. It's alot easier to put in the requisite practice time when you feel that you are making progress.


Cheers

allthumbs 

[miguelcatalao]

(...)
Besides, even if it is irrespective of my age, it doesn't suggest the mere act of really, really wanting little else other than to play and, the important part of devoting lots and lots of time to it because I'm not busy, is enough.

Your particular story is sad...

But let me say, what i particularly think it is sad is... that to play an instrument you just not only need the will to do it, neither the time to study it... You also need some talent... Weather you are a 5 year old, or a 50! So take it or live it, but if in 5 years of multiple hours study, you can't play any kind of work, i just think you might not really have it!

So the sad and real truth then, is plain and simply, try another art... Not an instrument, ANOTHER kind of art!

Sorry to be so harsh, but it's what i think...

[zheer]

     I've been told time and time again that past age 30, one should have done what it is they have really wonted to do. The reason for that is, once you are over 30, then things get a little tough. Though i do recommend investing some time in learning how to play the piano.

[miguelcatalao]

     I've been told time and time again that past age 30, one should have done what it is they have really wonted to do. The reason for that is, once you are over 30, then things get a little tough. Though i do recommend investing some time in learning how to play the piano.

Oh, thank God i'm only 29...

Come on do you really  think it is that so linear?? 

[lostinidlewonder]

It's not like you learn for x hours and do x amount of work and BANG!you can play. You are in a constant state of learning and relearning and learning more and more and refining and making better and making easier and making sound better and doing it forever. It is like someone trying to lose weight, you don't diet for 6 months then go back to the normal lifestyle, you must do it every day, change the way you live your life. If you don't you get no where. Learning music is like alcohol, if you drink it in sips you don't get drunk, you gotta skull every day!!!!   Then the effects wear off on you, then you must do more and more and work out ways to make your dosage more potent. If any master pianist stops playing for 10 years not touching a keyboard at all, their ability very much wither away. You are only good because you are constantly playing.

[keyofc]

I probably mentioned this on another post - but anyway - I had a 62 year old man taking lessons from me.  I also had a 70 year old lady learning.  I
Although it took him longer to catch on - he learned the piano.  He loves it.
I really think it depends on the person - and how he/she looks at challenges

 - and I would say that as a teacher wanting to go forward - I've learned more in the last five years then I did when I was in my 20s.

[leahcim]

leahciM:  That's a rough ride, I imagine our idealism about learning piano gets on your nerves.

Well this is a late reply because I haven't read here for ages, but it doesn't get on my nerves.

I guess it's a case of whether you read the typical response as "It's possible for some people, of whatever age, who try hard to learn the piano and get to a high standard." which is true. But that doesn't really answer the poster who asks because they are really wondering if they can do it. Or perhaps more accurately, whether the people that can do it have some identifying characteristic, like a tattoo on their backside or something that means we can say 'Well, no, sadly you can't play..'

I think they may read it as "I'm saying you can get to a high standard because anyone/everyone can if they really want to and try hard blah blah blah" then yeah, that'd be idealistic nonsense.

Especially for those people [many of whom will be kids] who try really hard and don't get anywhere - literally. But, even if I fall into that failure category, I wasn't fooled by the line in the first place.

I think the only time I've been fooled is initially [initially reading this forum, that is] believing that, if only I had the so-called "good teacher", for e.g some might say, one like Bernhard, then I'd get to a high grade and I'd learn many pieces quickly using his method(s).

Not that it would be easy. But that there are people who actually know 'how to play the piano' and can show / demonstrate that skill to someone else. Specifically, some mere mortal without the branding

Now, I put more weight on Bernhard's other posts, e.g one where he says he once had a drawer full of blank videos and one real one to fool potential students.

That site I posted, irrespective of whether his 'fundamental action' has any merit or not talks at length about failing to learn. Pretty much everything he says about his experience of learning is spot on imo - at least, it rings true with my experiences to date.

I wonder if you might be setting too high of expectations for yourself, trying to force it too much?  You talk about adults who suck, but I figure we're allowed to have a crappy playing stage, when approximations are acceptable (with appropriate rep)

Yes and no. Yes in the sense that if we search youtube for a piece or performer, be it minuet in G, 'fur elise' or, say, Horowitz playing Danse Macabre. I generally see the difference between awful and good and 'wow'. In that sense I have higher expectations than, say, some people who genuinely can't tell the difference between a crap version or a good version of the same piece.

But no in the sense that there are relatively simple things that I have no idea how they should be done, nor how I might learn them. e.g one thing that crops up often in piano playing is playing notes.  If it didn't, I'd probably be much better I have no idea how to play notes on the piano. I can obviously make the keys move and produce sound, but which way(s) are correct or not and how I might discover that and then, once I know what is the correct way, how I can reach a stage where I can do it with skill completely escapes me.

I've read a ton on the subject. I've practised / experimented, thought about it, fretted about, asked other people about it, watched other people doing it and so on and so on, I've even read the stuff that says to ignore it completely and 'just play' or 'imagine beautiful sounds'

The end result is crippling pain. Oops. Perhaps it does matter how you play the notes after all. I'm sure you agree though that pain isn't something that's supposed to be a stage along the way or a goal?

Although this has varied over the years, I pretty much spend all my time trying to work out what to move up, down, in or out. Shoulders, elbows, wrists, arms, fingers. Arguments about where your muscles are or aren't and whether you need them or not. Which bits of your body aren't technically fingers even though that's what most people call them. What we mean by 'wrist' and so on and so on.

The rest of the time is just playing 'improv' which is just noise, the equiv of soloing a couple of scales on a guitar I guess and a few snippets of pieces that I've tried and failed to learn.

Even if I started out thinking "I'd love to be able to play classical / romantic pieces like Chopin's" right now I'd love to be able to play anything. A c major scale, a bit of boogie woogie, Muse's feeling good, the rock pieces my son thinks are cool that youtuber's do cover versions of. Anything at all. A C major scale, comfortably, would be an achievement.

But the usual advice "practise" I do. "playing slowly" actually hurts more. "get a teacher" - I wish I could find one, but I could write a few thousand words on the 2 I've had and what went wrong.

The jist of it is though, the teachers start by listening to the tale of woe, say "Let's pick a new piece you've never played", then I'm in the same position that I am in when teaching myself.

I go home and sit there trying to play the piece [in single hands / small pieces / whatever I have no forking idea how to play notes on the piano and the teacher says nothing about it, yes, even if you ask] when I go back they'll listen and point out one or two things that are wrong  [they'll often miss out lots of others too, perhaps in their misguided attempt to avoid "hurting" people]

So, you'll play a section or a bar or 2 at the lesson a few times, go home and after another week of still having absolutely no idea how to play the piano, this piece, or both, and no advice at all that would help move you forward you carry on regardless, in more pain and more frustration.

...and so on until after enough weeks either one of us is so frustrated, bored and tired of failing miserably to play that piece, be it the first 8 bars or the whole thing, you move onto something else anyway. Yes, at this point, if the teacher remarked that "perhaps as an adult you don't have enough time to practise?" I would despair. But I can see why s/he might think they were right because others here have more or less decided that it's fact.

Repeat that and before long you'll be not playing a number of different pieces I guess. As I said, we're not talking Rach 3 here, not even Fur Elise. Any simple piece. Indeed, it doesn't really make that much difference, I can play the first few bars of Minuet in G just as poorly and with as little clue as I play the first few bars of Mazurka Op 63/2 or Beethoven 49/2 or Em Prelude.

Anyway...I could write on and on at length on the subject and I welcome any and all advice of what, if anything, I can do about it [bearing in mind that if someone has written a book, posted a post or made a video and put it on the internet I've probably read it / watched it]

Someone else said I'm writing from my perspective. Well yeah. How to find out about adults learning the piano. Obviously not from an adult learning the piano's perspective, you're much better off asking a 10 year old or a bunch of people who can play the piano well

I'm not suggesting all adults will fail in the same way, but I think far more will than will succeed. Bear in mind that life isn't the Disney channel if you really, really, really want something badly enough, that doesn't mean you get it, it probably just means it'll hurt a lot more if you don't get it. As a shedload of [compared to me] fantastic, but [compared to the world] fairly average pianists find out after years and years of hard work. The secret is probably to enjoy it, but I've not found the secret to that yet, perhaps the secret is making some progress, which I never do.

[steve jones]

I agree. I think it really depends on how much you want it and how much you're prepared to invest.

My advice - work well, not hard!

Infact, scratch that... work well AND hard!

By that, I mean dont waste time. Practice intelligently, working out what you need to achieve and how to get there. If in doubt, ask the teacher.

Also, dont be afraid to question your teacher. Sometimes they are more of an hinderance than they are a help! Getting the right teacher for you is important.

SJ

[timothy42b]

Well this is a late reply because I haven't read here for ages, but it doesn't get on my nerves.

I guess it's a case of whether you read the typical response as "It's possible for some people, of whatever age, who try hard to learn the piano and get to a high standard." which is true.

I would have worded that slightly differently.

How about this:  It is possible for most people with sufficient effort to play with basic line level competence.  It is possible for a very few people born with exceptional talent to put in sufficient effort and play at incredible virtuoso levels, or for those same few people to put in minimal effort and play with basic competence.  Then it stands to reason that there may also exist a very few people who have a talent blockage of some kind, who will not learn to play well no matter what effort.  Seems like if you have a high end of the distribution there is likely to exist a low end.

I once played in a polka band with a leader who had a rhythmic learning disability (he was blissfully unaware of it).  A measure might have three beats in it, but it was as likely to have 2, 4, 2.79, 3.245, etc.  It took extreme awareness to play with the guy but he paid well so I did.  There was nothing he could do, he had some kind of disconnection in the brain.  

However.  It is also true that the phenomenon of people struggling with the piano for years, and never  achieving any fluency, is rather more common than we like to admit, and suggests something unique either to the instrument or the method of instruction.  

[leahcim]

How about this:  It is possible for most people with sufficient effort to play with basic line level competence.

Yes, maybe. But y'know, if I was a child struggling with my maths homework I wouldn't really expect to be compared on a scale that included the world's greatest mathematicians. There's no point.

Although I'm reaching the conclusion you suggest, that I suck and always will. I guess I simply have nothing else / better to do. Otherwise I would have saved my sanity and stopped.

As it is, to fill the gap between now and when I die I'm trying to learn the piano. As futile as it has been, I'm hoping it's possible.

Perhaps that's a better question. If it's hard. If you need effort. What is this effort? What should I be doing? Because what I've done up until now has varied a bit, but it has been hours and hours a day for years and I got nowhere. Absolutely nowhere. It can't just be "hard work" per se.

I'm willing to try anything legal, including not playing the piece at all. After all, as I said, I've spent hours and hours recently just playing scales and CG in 2 hands - which if I thought I was definitely doing it correctly and it has a chance of working I will carry on, for 20 years if need be...whatever it takes.

But I have absolutely no idea how to get from here, which is, around 5+ years into playing the piano [and I quite honestly am no better than I was 5 years ago] to a stage where I can play pieces and progress forward.

Ask a teacher? But I have Steve. So far they've all done what I described - listen to me play, listen to a diatribe about my arm and what I've done etc and then they put a new piece in front of me - what else would they do? They are piano teachers and they believe in themselves and their "teaching" [even the ones that'll post about the habits the previous teachers gave their pupils, so, like any job they all know each other suck but not themselves ]

But, otherwise, it's like if you go to a different doctor and say "Lots of doctors have looked at my leg, they all say 'do this' and I did but..." He'll just do what the other doctors did and look at your leg once more, hmm and ahh for a bit and tell you to rest it / take tablets or whatever. Because he's a doctor and that's what doctors do. If what he says isn't working though, that's when the saga starts.

If there are teachers in the UK that sit with their pupils and talk about arm movements or whatever, I've never heard their name....I guess 'which teacher? Please name as many as you can...' is the best question.

Read one of the first posts I made to the forum, what it basically says is still spot on, excepting 2 things (a) I'm obviously less convinced of improvement now and (b) the pain doesn't go now without tablets [I'm probably clinically depressed now too] :-

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,11153.msg115675.html#msg115675