Arpeggios?

[tullfan]

Right, I'm going to sound like such a dunce here , but, I've been working through the hanon studies and I can do all of the exercises in the first two books (including all the major and minor scales) at decent speeds, usually over halfway between the reccomended minimum and maximum bpm, and a some of them at pretty much the maximum suggested speed. My major/minor arpeggios on the other hand, which are the last thing the 2nd book addresses, are appalling, I can't play many of them faster than 60bpm (semiquavers) and even at that speed some of them are a bit messy. What do you suggest I do to improve my arpeggios technique?
Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
P.S. Please try to avoid this becoming an argument about the pros and cons of hanon, that is not the point of this post, try to focus on the subject of practicing arpeggios.

[landru]

Right, I'm going to sound like such a dunce here , but, I've been working through the hanon studies and I can do all of the exercises in the first two books (including all the major and minor scales) at decent speeds, usually over halfway between the reccomended minimum and maximum bpm, and a some of them at pretty much the maximum suggested speed. My major/minor arpeggios on the other hand, which are the last thing the 2nd book addresses, are appalling, I can't play many of them faster than 60bpm (semiquavers) and even at that speed some of them are a bit messy. What do you suggest I do to improve my arpeggios technique?
Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
P.S. Please try to avoid this becoming an argument about the pros and cons of hanon, that is not the point of this post, try to focus on the subject of practicing arpeggios.

My performance of arpeggios greatly improved when I bit the bullet and stopped looking at where to put my hands - i.e. when I could move my hands to the right places on the keyboard without needing the "crutch" of looking. The act of looking was actually impeding my progress by putting in another thing to think about on top of the hand motions! The motions I was supposed to be putting into hand memory were being subverted by the constant looking/second guessing as I practiced.

I don't know if this is your problem or not, but I thought I would share what worked for me. After I identified it (it took, oh, a couple of months...), I went back to the drawing board and did slow practice to get the right hand motions without looking and it finally worked and I got way further than I was before.

Good luck!

[thalberg]

First of all, you shouldn't be doing Hannon......JUST KIDDING:)

Okay, arpeggios........

I play fast arpeggios.....I'm trying to think what I do so I can help you....

I think I use pulling fingers on the way up, hand collects the fingers after they play i.e. don't leave them spread apart.  Hand also supinates (rotates toward pinky).  Arm makes kind of a swooping motion.  At end of one triad or so, the hand leaves the keys for a split second and pronates (rotates toward thumb) and opens up and starts over again.

On the way down, I use pushing fingers and my hand opens as I play the triad.  Keep the arm free.

It would be better in person. 

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Is it just me, or is the idea of a post by "thalberg" on the topic of arpeggios rather amusing?

In any case (attempting to analyse my arpeggio playing, which is tough, because it's so ingrained as to be pretty much subconscious), I'd say the absolute key is ease in getting the thumb under/ top finger over (depending on hand and direction) in order to get to the next octave of the arpeggiated pattern. The previous post makes a lot of sense; there's a movement of the hand position going on throughout the playing of the various notes of the chord, explicitly to facilitate the (for example) thumb under. To demonstrate, perhaps a good way is to do this: Consider the chord DFBbD: right hand holds down F and Bb  with fingers 2 and 4 and initially place the thumb on the lower D - while still holding down 2 and 4, skip the thumb back and forward between the lower and upper Ds (of course, this generates an exaggerated version of the movement of the hand position - it's clearly harder than just doing the arpeggio, but I think perhaps it illustrates the general motions).

I feel a little wary about posting on this board, as a lot of my technique has been self-taught, so if I've said something that's pedagogically stupid, I apologise in advance.

[rc]

A few months ago arpeggios were my big stumbling block.  I can still taste the frustration, heh.

One thing I did wrong was flapping my elbows like wings, based on some ideas I'd read about and obviously misunderstood.  The upper arms should move in a fairly steady, fluid motion.

What helped me was when I started just listening to the line moving from one note to the next, while the body remains comfortable.  Real slow until I had fluid sounding connection in both hands, one note at a time.  Then gradually building the speed, sometimes trying a sudden burst of speed.

One thing I noticed was how the faster I went the less it needed physical connection between the notes to sound fluid.   This gradiation occurred naturally when I was basing my reactions on what I hear.

I also chose pieces featuring arpeggios after I'd gotten a basic grasp of them - to further push myself.

This stuff is hard to communicate in words, it's easy to misunderstand, but everyone so far has given good advice in their own way.  Stick with it and have patience with yourself and before you know it your difficulties will be only a memory.

[ramseytheii]

First of all, you shouldn't be doing Hannon......JUST KIDDING:)

Okay, arpeggios........

I play fast arpeggios.....I'm trying to think what I do so I can help you....

I think I use pulling fingers on the way up, hand collects the fingers after they play i.e. don't leave them spread apart.  Hand also supinates (rotates toward pinky).  Arm makes kind of a swooping motion.  At end of one triad or so, the hand leaves the keys for a split second and pronates (rotates toward thumb) and opens up and starts over again.

On the way down, I use pushing fingers and my hand opens as I play the triad.  Keep the arm free.

It would be better in person. 

Thalberg based on some of your other posts I can't help but feel that you play an arpeggio, look at your hand, and then try and describe what your hand appears to be doing.  In other words, it's questionable that you actually "do" this, and might make such advice risky at best!  I remember your post about 4-5 trills where you said something about lifting up the index finger, or something equally bizarre, then posted a bit later, "Never mind, I don't actually do that, so it must not work." 

In general, dealing in split seconds or trying to describe a millisecond in time is not a good idea, unless you are Yukio Mishima.  I think what is important here is merely to transfer the comfortable feeling you have playing other exercises or figurations, into arpeggios.  If you can play three notes in the triad at one octave comfortably, and then three notes at the next octave comfortably, all that remains is for you to get out of the way in between.

Sorry, I just ran out of time, but will post more later..
Walter Ramsey

[tradge]

If you're looking for a challenging approach to arpeggios, Chopin etude Op. 25 No. 12 is a great bet, it really trains your hands to play arpeggically better. Also Op. 10 No. 1 is good, but both are very difficult.