Switching fingers for repeated notes. Mandatory or not?

[persona]

The piano tuner came by last week and listened to me play. He said I'd improved, but was very surprised my teacher would allow me to play repeated notes with the same finger. What's interesting about this is that, the particular piece I was playing includes both quarter-note-repetitions (which I obviously played switching fingers) and half-note-repetitions (which I played using only one finger). I told him I didn't see the point in switching fingers unless it was indispensible, but he said "a well trained listener can always tell the difference. You must always switch fingers if you are playing the same note consecutive times, no matter what their duration is. Even if they last a whole compass each, you must never use the same finger twice". So, who should I listen to, my teacher or the tuner? (note: the teacher is a senior at college, while the tuner is a former concertist).
The other reason why I am asking this is that, a long time ago I posted a question about wether I should play the passage on the picture with fingers 4321-4321 or just use one finger and forget about it, and most of the responses I got said I should use the same finger. Even one guy said, as I recall "I don't see how such books even get published". Now I see much clearer than ever, that you cannot trust everything you read on the web.

[quasimodo]

Hahaha! I'm pretty sure the same question has been asked about the very same piece. And the answer is no, it really really is not mandatory, unless you want to play that prelude ultra-fast (might be fun...)
And about the well-trained listener, err. sound like big BS to me.

[amelialw]

u should switch fingers, I highly recommend it. It will be something that is required when you reach a higher grade.

[Bob]

It's one of those rules like 'keep the thumb off the black keys.'  

As long as you're relaxed, I think it's fine.  Because the big advantage of not switching fingers is that  - you don't switch fingers - You don't have to move the hand's position and there's a nice security in that.  

Although yes, you could use it as practice for more difficult pieces.

[ryan2189]

If the piece is faster, then it is more appropriate to switch fingers, mainly because you conserve energy and don't tense yourself up. I have seen some great pianists play slower passages with repeated notes with the same finger. I don't really notice anything different. My teacher said that it is not madatory either (and she also used to be a concert pianist) For that piece I wouldn't do it, but for Chopin's Op 18 waltz there are sections that work much better when you switch fingers. You just need to recognize the difference.

[persona]

I have also seen pros on TV not switching, but when I think about it, they must have been playing other notes with that same hand between the repeated notes, which would make them not consecutive.

The tuner was absolutely certain about this, and it made a lot of sense to me too, but then again, here we have three people thinking otherwise, and a fourth who sais it's useful to get used to it, but not mandatory.

[quasimodo]

but for Chopin's Op 18 waltz there are sections that work much better when you switch fingers.

I would say it works only if you switch fingers 

[jlh]

I once played Beethoven's 32 variations in a masterclass for Philip Kawin (from the Manhattan School) and Arbo Valdma (from Germany), and they told me that for the first 2 variations it's more effective NOT to change fingers on those 6-7 repeated notes that happen several times in those variations.  I ended up still changing the fingers, but this is yet another proof that it is not mandatory to change fingers in all cases of repeated notes.

I'd be hesitant to accept advice for face value from anyone that insists on "at all times" for technique such as repeated notes.

Best,
Josh

[counterpoint]

It's one of those rules like 'keep the thumb off the black keys.'  

Exactly 

In this Prelude, the finger changes of the left hand are ridiculous 

[ivoryplayer_amf]

I was told by someone that switching fingers gives it something that "not doing it" would.  For example.  Fur Elise last page- If you play it with one finger it would have the same sound as switching fingers.  Though very suttle!  Why would beethoven write it in if it was necessary???  He had a reason, he heard something or felt something that doing that would only give.

[counterpoint]

  Why would beethoven write it in if it was necessary??? 

He would have not, and he has not.

You must have an edited version of the piece. This is not in Urtext edition!

[kriskicksass]

Chopin insisted that switching of fingers for repeated notes was absurd and completely unnecessary except for in the fastest passages. I agree with that, although there are times when I do switch fingers in slow passages as a way of building in a tension-relieving spot.

[Bob]

Different fingers strike with different intensities.  Small, but it's there, and it's something to work out if you want a perfect even sound.

I think one of my teachers did justify using the same finger for that reason -- to get a more even sound.  That's when the tempo was slow enough.

I say do whatever sounds best and is most comfortable.

If it's a piece you're just learning to learn, and not perform, you could use the alternating fingers just to have them learn that pattern.  I don't know the piece though.

It's one of those things that's a matter of opinion.

[Nightscape]

Sometimes you have no choice but to switch fingers for repeated notes -
like in Scarbo or some other Ravel pieces - it's so fast that it becomes almost impossible not to.

On the other hand, sometimes you have to use the same finger, such as quickly repeated octaves (you might switch around 4-5 but your thumb is all alone there!).  Also, in several Bach pieces there are repeated notes that have to be played by one finger because your other fingers on that hand are doing things.

[franzliszt2]

I alwats change fingers on repeated notes. It helps with sound and speed. Never aim for the same part if the kay on the change. But always aim for the area oin the tip of the key.

[persona]

Nightscape:

You are right, I meant, "when it's possible"

franzliszt2:

That's a good point. Exactly where should I aim then?

[nightingale11]

You might be interesting in this:

FINGERING

''Is there a musical solution to every problem of fingering?

Yes, except when the hands really cannot reach wide intervals meant to be sounded simultaneously. Then, however, there is generally a less efficient but musically acceptable solution in the form of arpeggiation.

What is a good fingering?

One that involves an economy of motion and a consistency that ensure security, and that most simply and directly exposes the musical content.

What is a bad fingering?

One that introduces unnecessary motions and changes of hand position that hinder rather than assist the expression of musical content.

What is the cause of much stumbling and inaccuracy?

Undecided and inconsistent fingering, and poorly prepared shifts of hand position.

How can a problem of fingering be solved in passages where stumbling and inaccuracies occur?

By writing down and following an orderly and consistent fingering, and by later revising it, if necessary, for even greater convenience and musical suitability.

If I write down careful and consistent fingerings for at least three Scarlatti sonatas, and test them out and revise them so that they really work in execution, will I be able to finger the remaining sonatas satisfactorily?

Yes.

If I learn at least six Scarlatti sonatas with carefully written out fingering, will I be able to dispense with writing out all but unusual passages in the others?

Yes.

Questions to ask:

What fingering permits the maximum legato grouping of notes without change of hand position?

What fingering best permits the transition from one hand position to another?

Which intervals demand legato and which permit detachment?

In this chord passage, have I found the smoothest possible fingering? Can I cover an undesirable detachment in one voice by making a smooth progression in another? Have I eliminated unnecessary substitutions of finger, and have I satisfactorily co-ordinated those that are necessary?

In this passage in broken harmony, what fingering adapts itself with the greatest security to correspond with the underlying chord progression?

Is this phrase best expressed by a fingering permitting and unbroken legato, or by one that expresses the articulation of certain intervals by automatically detaching?

Is a quiet hand advantageous here, or is there a movement of the hand or a shift of hand position that will help to bring out the musical content of the phrase?

In these repeated notes, which grouping of changing fingers feels and sounds best? Is it a pattern of four, three or two fingers? Is it a passage that sounds better without a change of finger?

Do certain notes sound better with releases that are as sharp and as accurately timed as their attacks?

Will this fast passage sound less eloquent, or more crisp and brilliant by means of an accurate timing of the releases as well as the attacks of its component notes?

Does staccato or merely a simultaneous timing of the release of one note with the attack of the following note sound better here?

On certain notes is it better to make two separate impulses, one for attack, and one for release, or to make only one impulse to embrace both attack and release?

Do certain notes sound better with a gradual than with a sudden release? Do they sound better when held and allowed to die away or to be covered by the attacks of succeeding notes?

Does a legato here enhance or obscure the rhythmic energy of this passage?

Will overlapping add to the effect of legato? Will it add harmonic richness to the inflection of dissonant passing tones, or will it diminish brilliance by rendering release imprecise?

Do certain octave passages in consecutive thirds or sixths sound better when played detached, with the same fingers, like octaves?

In passages outlining broken harmony, which sounds better: to play them melodically, or to sustain the harmonies with the fingers (or the pedal)? Is it desirable in some such passages to make shadings in the sustaining of underlying harmony, from non-sustained, through partly sustained to fully sustained?''

Kirkpatrick - preface(part of) Scarlatti: sixty sonatas, schirmer edition. He has some umpteen questions concerning performance in it (not only the scarlatti sonatas). I suggest you get it.

[slobone]

In the Bach prelude, I play the left hand eighth notes detached anyway -- not quite staccato but kind of a bouncing effect. I think surely Bach intended each note to sound pretty much the same as the others, which is easier to achieve if you keep using the same finger.

As for changing notes on repeated octaves, it depends on whether you're trying for legato or a more percussive effect. If the repeated notes occur as part of the melody, it might be a good idea to change fingers.

But in a piece like the accompaniment to the Erlkonig (where the octaves are in the right hand and the melody is in the bass), I think the hammering effect is exactly what Schubert is after. Changing fingers wouldn't be appropriate here (especially at that tempo!).

[franzliszt2]

Aim for the very edge pf the key. It's much easier to get the thing down. Also aim for slightly different parst of it, I aim very far away at forst and move into and out of the keys. I dunno if other people do this, my teacher just told me to experiment becasue it is a very personal technique. Hand size means a lot as well. My hand are not that large, so I can use my thumb a lot, but I no people with big hands and the thumb annoys them.

Practice scales repeating for example....CCDDEEFF using 1212121212 etc....

then....CCCDDDEEEFFF.....using 321321321

and then CCCCDDDDEEEEFFFF....using 432143214321.

and alternate the orders of fingers, get used to changing.

I love practicing repeated not sections using the exact fingering I intend, but not actually letting the key come up at all. It forsces the fingers to get used to striking fast and accuractly at the same point. Then transfer this feeling onto the point just before the hammer strikes the string, and you should have perfect repeated notes. Watch out for accents as well, carefully place the thumb on beats etc...

[elevateme_returns]

to answer the question - it depends purely on the piece.

[slobone]

Practice scales repeating for example....CCDDEEFF using 1212121212 etc....

then....CCCDDDEEEFFF.....using 321321321

and then CCCCDDDDEEEEFFFF....using 432143214321.

and alternate the orders of fingers, get used to changing.

I believe Hanon has some exercises like that.

But back to the original poster -- I forgot to say -- if you're listening to your piano tuner instead of your teacher, you need to get a new teacher! (Or possibly a new piano tuner...)

[pianistimo]

persona, in grad school i was told that with the scarlatti K 119 - that those fast repeated notes could be played more precisely and quicker by moving the same finger in towards the fallboard.  basically, plotting four spots or so.  now, with the bach that you have - you could work 4-5 positions moving inward - and then start again at the usual place that you play and repeat. 

sorry there is so much conflicting advice.  sometimes it pays to try it both ways and even if you are undecided for a while - to keep trying both and see what works for you.  with the suggested way above - you keep your fingers close to the keys.  as you go more inwards - you are using the natural leverage of the key to have it strike as precisely as you want without the key 'flipping out.'

[quasimodo]

and even if you are undecided for a while - to keep trying both and see what works for you. 

I don't agree with that one, you can find out soon enough which one works and stick to it, otherwise you create a conflict in your brain and that's what creates mistakes.

[pianistimo]

someone mentioned tempo.  also, it depends on what is going on.  for me, personally, i'd probably change fingers on this one.  not sure what my teacher would do. 

as i see it - this particular piece is about a slower pace.  you don't have to worry about speed.

yes - i'd stick with changing fingers so you don't get sloppy.  i actually really like the fingering that you have in this edition.

and, regarding choosing - sometimes people decide to change back to another way later.  it's not that bad if you are able to handle change quickly.

one method of fingering is making all the notes reachable by the last note played.  the other is just moving the hand around wherever it needs to go and ditching traditional fingering and favoring phrasing alone.

[persona]

Thanx to all of you people!

[ryanyee]

definetely required! helps in liszt's gnomenreigen in the left hand section and when you reach a higher grade.

[ramibarniv]

The piano tuner came by last week and listened to me play. He said I'd improved, but was very surprised my teacher would allow me to play repeated notes with the same finger. What's interesting about this is that, the particular piece I was playing includes both quarter-note-repetitions (which I obviously played switching fingers) and half-note-repetitions (which I played using only one finger). I told him I didn't see the point in switching fingers unless it was indispensible, but he said "a well trained listener can always tell the difference. You must always switch fingers if you are playing the same note consecutive times, no matter what their duration is. Even if they last a whole compass each, you must never use the same finger twice". So, who should I listen to, my teacher or the tuner? (note: the teacher is a senior at college, while the tuner is a former concertist).
The other reason why I am asking this is that, a long time ago I posted a question about wether I should play the passage on the picture with fingers 4321-4321 or just use one finger and forget about it, and most of the responses I got said I should use the same finger. Even one guy said, as I recall "I don't see how such books even get published". Now I see much clearer than ever, that you cannot trust everything you read on the web.

There is no need what so ever to change fingers on repeated notes unless you have a good reason.
The example you posted is not a good reason to change fingers.
Best,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[jlh]

There is no need what so ever to change fingers on repeated notes unless you have a good reason.
The example you posted is not a good reason to change fingers.
Best,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

Rami speaks the truth. 

[ramseytheii]

The reason some play repeated notes with one finger, is generally to give each one a strong pulse.  If you play with alternating fingers, it is generally because the pulse rests on the first beat.

For example, the fugato in Liszt's Totentanz: it would be insane to give each repeated note an individual pulse, and melodically, the pulse is only on the first of each group anyways, thus switch fingers.  In Mozart's D major sonata, I think K284, last movement variations, one begins with a sort of woodpecker upbeat, 4 A's.  It would be musically advisable to play with the same finger, giving each the same kind of attack.

In this example, if you were going to change fingers, it would be much more advisable to play 2 - 1 instead of 4 - 3 - 2 - 1.

Also, for the sake of your mental health, don't listen to your piano tuner above your piano teacher.

Walter Ramsey

[guendola]

My teacher required me to alternate fingers on single notes. I did so during the lessons but almost never when practising. Now, after a break of more than 20 years, it seems to me that depending on the situation either method can be better.

Today I think I should have followed the advise of my teacher - for a very simple reason:
Being a much better listener, I can learn to steadily play repetitions with a single finger now, but I also need to learn properly to use alternate fingers.

[jlh]

Sometimes it's mandatory to switch fingers for repeated notes... for example, it's impossible to play the Liszt Tarantella or the Scarlatti Sonata K. 141 in D minor without switching fingers on the repeated notes.

Context and musical intent are necessary factors to consider.

[valor]

Instead of playing 4321 4321 in the left hand in the prelude wouldn't it be quicker and simpler to play 21 21 or 31 31?

And I'd say its pretty mandatory to alternate fingers for a reaped note. I used to use 1 finger to play a repeated (i still do with slower peices) and now its seems a lot smoother to alternate.

[ramibarniv]

Instead of playing 4321 4321 in the left hand in the prelude wouldn't it be quicker and simpler to play 21 21 or 31 31?

No it wouldn't. What for? How quick do you want it to be?

And I'd say its pretty mandatory to alternate fingers for a reaped note.

Only if you learned from teachers and editors who didn't really know all necessary piano playing technique and were quite limited in that.

I used to use 1 finger to play a repeated (i still do with slower peices) and now its seems a lot smoother to alternate.

You must be missing a very important wrist movement in your piano playing technique.
How would you change the fingers if you had the same in double notes like octaves or any other interval...?
Use the same technique as if these were double notes.
Best,
Rami
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[valor]

No it wouldn't. What for? How quick do you want it to be?

Only if you learned from teachers and editors who didn't really know all necessary piano playing technique and were quite limited in that.

You must be missing a very important wrist movement in your piano playing technique.
How would you change the fingers if you had the same in double notes like octaves or any other interval...?
Use the same technique as if these were double notes.
Best,
Rami
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

My teacher isn't very good (he doesn't teach me at all) so im always learning on my own so i guess i lack in Technique. Missing wrist movement? what do you mean?

[soliloquy]

Definitely not required.  Whether you "switch fingers" or not depends on the tone which you want to produce.

[ramibarniv]

My teacher isn't very good (he doesn't teach me at all) so im always learning on my own so i guess i lack in Technique. Missing wrist movement? what do you mean?

Why don't you get a good teacher...?
There are a number of ways to play repeated notes/chords/octaves and other intervals.
1) Just using the finger(s).
2) Using the hand from the wrist like a wing.
3) Using the forearm and hand as one unit.
4) Using the entire arm + forearm + hand as one unit.
5) Using the forearm rotation movement.
6) Other movements.
Depending on the sound you want and the speed you would choose the appropriate technique.
For the fastest repeated notes without changing fingers, #2 is the best.
It is also good for the fastest repeated chords, octaves and other intervals, as well as any fast octaves/chords/intervals, not just repeated, scales etc. too.
When repeating the same note(s), one can also add to #2 the wrist movement up and down while the hand (with forearm and arm) moves on the key in and out, like someone is pushing your elbow lightly towards the keyboard and then pulling back out.
Hope this helps.
Best,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[valor]

Why don't you get a good teacher...?
There are a number of ways to play repeated notes/chords/octaves and other intervals.
1) Just using the finger(s).
2) Using the hand from the wrist like a wing.
3) Using the forearm and hand as one unit.
4) Using the entire arm + forearm + hand as one unit.
5) Using the forearm rotation movement.
6) Other movements.
Depending on the sound you want and the speed you would choose the appropriate technique.
For the fastest repeated notes without changing fingers, #2 is the best.
It is also good for the fastest repeated chords, octaves and other intervals, as well as any fast octaves/chords/intervals, not just repeated, scales etc. too.
When repeating the same note(s), one can also add to #2 the wrist movement up and down while the hand (with forearm and arm) moves on the key in and out, like someone is pushing your elbow lightly towards the keyboard and then pulling back out.
Hope this helps.
Best,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

I wont be able to find a good teacher untill schools over, fortunantely though my teacher is going to show me how to start playing a bit more correctly. Could you explain what the forearm rotation is?

[jlh]

I wont be able to find a good teacher untill schools over, fortunantely though my teacher is going to show me how to start playing a bit more correctly. Could you explain what the forearm rotation is?

Reasonably certain Rami is referring to the tremolo technique, in which the forearm is rotated back and forth, only for this you would be only playing a single repeated note.  Check out this video where the technique is explained and demonstrated:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkOZA7oCVhU

[ramibarniv]

...Could you explain what the forearm rotation is?

Your forearm all the way from the elbow to the fingertips as one unit turns right and left like you'd have a pendulum hanging from your hand. Your arm should not move and your wrist practically does not exist here.
If still not clear, it is the same movement you'd do to turn a door knob or a key in its hole.
The idea is shifting the weight from side to side hardly using any finger movement.
Best,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/