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Topic: Analysis Help : Mozart Sonata in c minor, K457, 2nd mov.  (Read 12972 times)

Offline m1469

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So, as stated, I am talking about Mozart's sonata in C minor, K 457, 2nd mov..

The section that I am unsure about, in terms of harmonic analysis, is from measure 29 through measure 40.  I am trying to do harmonic analysis here, and I am not sure how to label these changes (in Roman Numerals) nor am I quite sure how to think of them. 

I know that by measure 32 we are in Gb Major, coming from Ab Major just before that -- but labelling and thinking about the transition to that key is challenging for me.  Also, it seems that the key of Gb Major is not altogether stable as it seems we begin to transition somewhere else almost immediately, eventually coming back to the original key of Eb Major by measure 41.

Your thoughts and helpful insights are appreciated :).


m1469
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes
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Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Analysis Help : Mozart Sonata in c minor, K457, 2nd mov.
Reply #1 on: June 22, 2007, 07:19:58 PM
I think this is actually the most "strange" and perhaps also most interesting part of this movement. At the point you mention, m. 31-32 Mozart suggests us by using the dominant 7th chord Bb7 that we come back to the home key, Eb major, but he surprises us completely with this progression to Gbmajor, and, as you state, afterwards destabilizes the whole part through a series of sequencing modulations in the style of a development section. The relation between Bb7 and Gb is what I know as "third relationship", i hope this is the correct English term. Bb and Eb serve as pivot notes. This turn to Gb major has to me somehow the character of a deceptive cadence. M32, last quarter: Gb: V7.  M 34: Gb. I-(V7): (M.35) II (V7): (M.36) III Now instead of going on with the sequence (the next step would be (V7):IV Cb major, Mozart leads us to c minor by using the dominant G major.
M. 37.  c: i- V- G: ii7- #IV6 with a diminished third(Ab) and
                                    5
diminished 7th (Eb)
So in m. 38 we are in the dominant of c minor, G. but since now he wants to go back to Eb major he uses in m. 39 c: (VII7) i6 but this i6  does not appear, instead it appears a Eb: (V2) (F7) : V7(B7), the thirtysecond run in m. 40 is on the dominant of Eb major.

I hope this makes at least a bit of sense, it is pretty complicated :P The chord on the last quarter in m. 37 is a typical Mozart chord which even has a particular name but I forgot this :P And the English name might be different anyway.

Okay hope this helps, it's my first attempt of doing such a complex harmonical analysis in English. It's fun :) hopefully perhaps someone else will correct what I said, if it's wrong.

Offline ramseytheii

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Re: Analysis Help : Mozart Sonata in c minor, K457, 2nd mov.
Reply #2 on: June 23, 2007, 04:23:58 AM
I think this is actually the most "strange" and perhaps also most interesting part of this movement. At the point you mention, m. 31-32 Mozart suggests us by using the dominant 7th chord Bb7 that we come back to the home key, Eb major, but he surprises us completely with this progression to Gbmajor, and, as you state, afterwards destabilizes the whole part through a series of sequencing modulations in the style of a development section. The relation between Bb7 and Gb is what I know as "third relationship", i hope this is the correct English term. Bb and Eb serve as pivot notes. This turn to Gb major has to me somehow the character of a deceptive cadence. M32, last quarter: Gb: V7.  M 34: Gb. I-(V7): (M.35) II (V7): (M.36) III Now instead of going on with the sequence (the next step would be (V7):IV Cb major, Mozart leads us to c minor by using the dominant G major.
M. 37.  c: i- V- G: ii7- #IV6 with a diminished third(Ab) and
                                    5
diminished 7th (Eb)
So in m. 38 we are in the dominant of c minor, G. but since now he wants to go back to Eb major he uses in m. 39 c: (VII7) i6 but this i6  does not appear, instead it appears a Eb: (V2) (F7) : V7(B7), the thirtysecond run in m. 40 is on the dominant of Eb major.

I hope this makes at least a bit of sense, it is pretty complicated :P The chord on the last quarter in m. 37 is a typical Mozart chord which even has a particular name but I forgot this :P And the English name might be different anyway.

Okay hope this helps, it's my first attempt of doing such a complex harmonical analysis in English. It's fun :) hopefully perhaps someone else will correct what I said, if it's wrong.

Yikes.  I love analysis but I had a hard time parsing this one out.  :)  I think your English is fine, and I am sure you are more or less right about everything.  I will try and state it in simpler words.

But first the last chord in m.37 is an augmented sixth chord, which almost always prepares a cadence.  In this case, Mozart frustrates a possible cadence to c minor by having a G major (V of c) flirt with a diminished-7 on F# (vii/V in C), finally dispelling the tension by lowering the G pedal point until it reaches the B-flat, the true dominant.

measures 24 - 40 are the "B" section, with a beautiful melody that foreshadows the second movement to the "Pathetique" sonata (even in the same key in m.24).  Harmonically, these bars explore the chromatic tensions implied in the ending of the first phrase (m.6). 

M.29 should be understood in the key of A-flat major as V/V, rather than V/I as if in E-flat major.  The reason is, when Classical composers wanted to modulate to a new key, they always used V/V to strengthen the modulation.  Although m.24 started clearly in A-flat major, that is not enough for Classical composers, who have to reaffirm it with cadences, departures and returns.

In this case, he continues the movement within the circle of fifths; bar 30 is, in A-flat major, V/V/V (F/B-flat/E-flat).  The seeming resolution in the middle of the bar is undermined with the iv-I figures which mirror the uncertain hesitations of bar 6, and suggest that e-flat minor is coming up.

G-flat major, in 32, comes as a deceptive cadence to e-flat minor, if only because of the minor Plagal cadences that happened for 3 beats (not really enough time  in this case to modulate).  But look at it this way: in m.24, he didn't bother modulating either; the beautiful effect is gained by the suddenness of the new harmony, not the preparation.

Therefore I think you are justified in calling m.32 I in Roman numerals; also you can call m.24 I.  It's not so common for Mozart, but there you have it, and the effect is positively Schubertian. :>

Starting in m.34, Mozart uses angstlich chromaticism to modulate up whole steps, creating a wonderful tension through paradox (bass moving resolutely down in chromatic steps, while harmonies are going up in whole steps).  This is sort of where the notion of key center breaks down.  You could concievably notate these harmonies all according to e-flat minor, the key that was supposedly frustrated earlier by the deceptive cadence, but that is unsatisfying, because of the G-natural in m.36, and the incompatibility of c minor in m.37 (it could be notated as v/ii in e-flat, but what's the point?  Audibly, it doesn't suggest that at all.)

My advice is to notate these all according to E-flat major.  They don't suggest any tonal center at all, and they don't have a harmonic direction in any normal sense.  Mozart ingeniously composed these rising-step modulations like a long passage, perhaps a long tunnel, or even a long staircase, that one must pass through, suggesting poetically a time of tribulation.  The flirtation of G major and f-# diminished chords over a G pedal further increases the nature of the trial, which is finally dispelled by the cadenza-like passage in m.40, bringing us safely back to E-flat major.

These then would be all modified harmonies according to E-flat major: m.34 bIII, m.35 biv, m.36 v, m.37 vi.  M.38-41 are easy to notate in E-flat major.

I hope that is clear.  To sum up, I don't believe there is a tonal center per se, and so if you want to use Roman numerals (you don't have to for this section), keep them only according to the home key.

Walter Ramsey

Offline m1469

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Re: Analysis Help : Mozart Sonata in c minor, K457, 2nd mov.
Reply #3 on: June 24, 2007, 01:59:13 PM
Many thanks to both of you !!  I have resisted digging this deeply into this music for years because I have struggled to completely understand all of it -- but, I am kind of on a mission for a bit here now.  These analysis are a bit "thick" for me and I am going to need to comb through them slowly so that I am *positive* that I am understanding correctly -- so, bear with me while I do that !

Thanks VERY MUCH :)
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline m1469

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Re: Analysis Help : Mozart Sonata in c minor, K457, 2nd mov.
Reply #4 on: June 25, 2007, 07:33:25 PM
I hope that is clear.  To sum up, I don't believe there is a tonal center per se, and so if you want to use Roman numerals (you don't have to for this section), keep them only according to the home key.

Walter Ramsey


Hi, Walter.  As I am working to get through some of this, I have a question on what exactly you mean in your wording in what I have quoted.  Do you mean that for the entire movement, I would relate absolutely everything to Eb Major ?

And, are you suggesting that with classical composers, one would always relate (even modulations) to *only* the original key ?
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Analysis Help : Mozart Sonata in c minor, K457, 2nd mov.
Reply #5 on: June 25, 2007, 08:14:26 PM
Hi, Walter.  As I am working to get through some of this, I have a question on what exactly you mean in your wording in what I have quoted.  Do you mean that for the entire movement, I would relate absolutely everything to Eb Major ?

And, are you suggesting that with classical composers, one would always relate (even modulations) to *only* the original key ?

Yes that is my question too as I am thinking of this. Plus I have a few other questions.
Quote
G-flat major, in 32, comes as a deceptive cadence to e-flat minor

I hear the e-flat minor somehow but...why should we treat it as a new tonal center? I mean, the deceptive cadence of e-flat minor would be c-flat major-which appears only later in mm. 37. But okay, I said myself that it has the character of a deceptive cadence.

And, another question,  this augmented sixth chord in m. 37 has also a seventh in it. So why should it be just an augmented sixth chord? there is f#-Ab-C-Eb so it is a seventh chord. I actually unfortunately don't remember it's name though and I won't try to post it here since it would sound actually complicated ;D Argh I really try to read in my Butterworth book more, in the future :P

Offline ramseytheii

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Re: Analysis Help : Mozart Sonata in c minor, K457, 2nd mov.
Reply #6 on: June 27, 2007, 01:16:19 PM
Hi, Walter.  As I am working to get through some of this, I have a question on what exactly you mean in your wording in what I have quoted.  Do you mean that for the entire movement, I would relate absolutely everything to Eb Major ?

And, are you suggesting that with classical composers, one would always relate (even modulations) to *only* the original key ?

I think for the bars you are talking about, with the changes from A-flat to G-flat to C to B-flat or whatever (sorry, I dončt have the score :( ) are better seen in a poetic light than an analytical one.  They dont offer any tonal center, but offer plenty of poetic effect.

Remember that when using roman numerals, they are describing chords built on degrees of the scale, which has a center note.  I dont think Roman numeral analysis is helpful here because no scale is suggested by these harmonies, but, they can be seen just as modified versions of chords from the E-flat scale.  You havent modulated successfully into any particular key, so I personally would relate them to the home tonality.

In other places, the composer is definitely modulating, so it is easy to notate the harmonies in the Roman numerals of a different key.

Walter Ramsey

Offline ramseytheii

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Re: Analysis Help : Mozart Sonata in c minor, K457, 2nd mov.
Reply #7 on: June 27, 2007, 01:26:38 PM
Yes that is my question too as I am thinking of this. Plus I have a few other questions.
I hear the e-flat minor somehow but...why should we treat it as a new tonal center? I mean, the deceptive cadence of e-flat minor would be c-flat major-which appears only later in mm. 37. But okay, I said myself that it has the character of a deceptive cadence.

And, another question,  this augmented sixth chord in m. 37 has also a seventh in it. So why should it be just an augmented sixth chord? there is f#-Ab-C-Eb so it is a seventh chord. I actually unfortunately don't remember it's name though and I won't try to post it here since it would sound actually complicated ;D Argh I really try to read in my Butterworth book more, in the future :P


I think any cadence that doesn't end up as it would suggest is fair to call deceptive.  I wish I had the score, but I remember the music at the last minute suggesting e-flat minor, and then moving into G-flat, but I think that the G-flat can be seen as the tonal center, similar to the analagous passage before in A-flat, which Mozart didnt modulate to. 

In the last chord you mention, there isnt a seventh. :)  A-flat to F-sharp is an augmented sixth, but A-flat to G-flat would be a seventh.  There are three kinds of augmented sixth chords, the so-called Italian, French and German, I forget the distinction because they all do the same thing, but I believe this is a German.

For this passage, I could very well be wrong, but I think analysing it in E-flat major is the best way to go.  Nothing else suggests itself for even two bars in a row.  Therefore we just have a succession of chords, but at least they can be seen as modified version of the E-flat major scale.  however if you ever show it to a theory professor or whatnot, do let us know what you find out.


Walter Ramsey

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Analysis Help : Mozart Sonata in c minor, K457, 2nd mov.
Reply #8 on: June 27, 2007, 02:25:04 PM
I think any cadence that doesn't end up as it would suggest is fair to call deceptive.  I wish I had the score, but I remember the music at the last minute suggesting e-flat minor, and then moving into G-flat, but I think that the G-flat can be seen as the tonal center, similar to the analagous passage before in A-flat, which Mozart didnt modulate to. 
Okay, I see. :)
Quote
In the last chord you mention, there isnt a seventh. :)  A-flat to F-sharp is an augmented sixth, but A-flat to G-flat would be a seventh. 

But here I dare to contradict.  :P Because I didn't mean Ab- F# with "the seventh". I mean F#- Eb and this IS a seventh, a diminished one actually. The root note of the chord is F# and it is placed on the alterated IV, at least that is how I learnt it, as far as I remember.

Offline ramseytheii

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Re: Analysis Help : Mozart Sonata in c minor, K457, 2nd mov.
Reply #9 on: June 28, 2007, 12:22:12 AM
Okay, I see. :)
But here I dare to contradict.  :P Because I didn't mean Ab- F# with "the seventh". I mean F#- Eb and this IS a seventh, a diminished one actually. The root note of the chord is F# and it is placed on the alterated IV, at least that is how I learnt it, as far as I remember.


Ah yes, there is a seventh.  But I think the chord is technically built from the A-flat as a German sixth.  One to look up in the textbooks!

Walter Ramsey
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