Species Counterpoint

[pianistimo]

ok.  i choose unison.  now, this is definately bass/alto?  (as this will most likely be the lowest note).  *i am becoming scared of the choices.  you know.  picking the WRONG one.

excuse me while i shuffle a bit.

I WILL BE RIGHT BACK.  i have to cook some dinner.  let ahinton take the next note.

[mcgillcomposer]

ok.  i choose unison.  now, this is definately bass/alto?  (as this will most likely be the lowest note).  *i am becoming scared of the choices.  you know.  picking the WRONG one.

excuse me while i shuffle a bit.

Good...live forever in fear of writing bad counterpoint! haha

Why would starting on a unison necessarily imply bass/alto?

[pianistimo]

didn't you give the ranges of the alto.  now, if i go upwards - i could do a sort of cross between a few notes in the alto and a few in the soprano - since that is what the bassline seems to do (crossing between tenor range and bass).

[mcgillcomposer]

didn't you give the ranges of the alto.  now, if i go upwards - i could do a sort of cross between a few notes in the alto and a few in the soprano - since that is what the bassline seems to do (crossing between tenor range and bass).

The cantus, as given, is in a reasonable range for any of the voice types. In any case, I said that you could transpose at will.

[pet]

Ok, let me give this a try...


Top Line: A    G    A    B    B    G    A    G#    A

Interval:  8    3    3    5    6    3     6    6     8

CF:          A    E    F    E    S     D    C     B    A

Interval:  1    6   10  10   6    8     5     3     1

Bottom:   A    G    D    A    F    E     F     G#  A

Isn't this hard to check if you can't see it??...

[mcgillcomposer]

Top Line: A    G    A    B    B    G    A    G#    A

CF:          A    E    F    E    D     E    C     B    A

Isn't this hard to check if you can't see it??...

Hey pet,

I'll look at the bass you wrote later, I have some errands to run. Anyway, a few comments about the top line:

- No voice-leading errors...good job
- Repeated notes (B) create a motive. In such a short piece there is no time to work out the consequences of a motivic gesture...so, in such a short piece, avoid them...it's just a distraction.
- Your line is VERY stagnant (it is stuck on A). The whole idea of counterpoint is to create independent musical lines that work together. Try creating a line that has a very distinct sense of direction but that also complements the given line.

There is more to say, but try a new one keeping in mind the above suggestions.

[ahinton]

dnow, if i go upwards - i could do a sort of cross

Yes, I bet you could!

Best,

Alistair

[pet]

Point taken! 

Question:  Isn't one tie allowed in first species if the CF is shorter than 10 notes?

Anyway, here is another try:

Top Voice:  E  G  A  B  D  C  A  G# A

Interval:    5  3   3  5  8  6  6   6   8

CF:             A  E  F  E  D  E  C   B   A

Hmm...I still seem to be stuck on A...lol  That's the thing about counterpoint...sometimes you can't go where you would like to because it breaks the rules...

[mcgillcomposer]

Hmm...I still seem to be stuck on A...lol  That's the thing about counterpoint...sometimes you can't go where you would like to because it breaks the rules...

It's not stuck on the A at all. Think about why I said that about your previous example...the only other notes you had were Bs and Gs. As such, it always sounded like a simple ornamentation of the A. The new line is actually pretty good; I'll post specific comments in a little while.

It is NOT about following rules. It is about writing a musically convincing line. Like I told pianistimo, the rules are there to help beginners avoid compositional complexities that they are not yet equipped to deal with. In time, when one knows how to handle the consequences of parallels, motives, and such things, I have no problem whatsoever with them being used in an exercise.

Did you know that Brahms kept a notebook of examples of parallels and other such theoretical 'mistakes' from the literature? He was curious to know how to break the 'rules', and as he discovered, there are MANY instances when breaking them is completely musical.

[mcgillcomposer]

Question:  Isn't one tie allowed in first species if the CF is shorter than 10 notes?

Again, I don't want to drill 'rules' into your head, so let me give you an answer more meaningful than "don't break the rules!" The important thing is to recognize the effect of a tie in such a context as our short exercises. It will create an accent simply because it differs from the rest of the exercise in a very noticeable way. So, if you do want to use a tie, make sure that you use it in a musically appropriate place (e.g. a suspension at a climax).

Top Voice:  E  G  A  B  D  C  A  G# A

Interval:    5  3   3  5  8  6  6   6   8

CF:             A  E  F  E  D  E  C   B   A

Nice work! Your line has a very nice shape to it, and you change harmonic 'colour' on the climax (an octave D). Also, your use of the modal G at the beginning allows the G# at the end to create a new harmonic colour at a significant point in the phrase (the cadence).

I am going to make one suggestion, not because there is particulalry anything 'wrong' with the line, but because it is something I want you to think about. At the opening of the line (not a very significant section) you have both voices leaping in the same direction from an open fifth. Although this is not really bad in itself, the fact that you are leaping to the leading tone in one of the voices creates a very strong 'accent'. Is this really an appropriate place for such a thing? In any case, I still think your line is very good...but what kind of a teacher would I be if I let even the littlest thing slide .

Here are a few suggestions:

A G A C D B A G# A - Here we avoid the leap at the beginning, and approach the climax by step. This  gives the listener a sense of preparation for the climax ( warning per se). This is not necessarily better, but you should be aware of the difference between leaping to a climax and approaching one stepwise. Note that the line is stuck on the A, so...

A G A C D B A B C - As in the previous line, the (E-B) 5th seems better suited after the climax...it doesn't give away the 'open' colour you have reserved for the climax before it happens. Also, to avoid becoming stuck on the A, the soprano climbs to scale degree three. Here we sacrifice the new colour of the G# at the cadence, but we add something else by not ending on the tonic.

Anyway, these lines aren't necessarily better than yours, but they do demonstrate some other valuable tools that can be used when writing counterpoint.

[pianistimo]

what if the G# wasn't sacrificed at the beginning - thereby keeping the a minor 'feel.'

top voice: A G# A C D B A G# A
cantus f:   A E   F  E D E C B   A

also, you avoid octave B's on the second to last pair.  also, if you ended on a C in the top voice - wouldn't it sound more incomplete than a unison.  or you don't really worry about completeness precluding just the basic chord structures.

if we analyze the former:

top voice:  A G A C D B A B C
cantus f:    A E F E D  E C B A
chords:     i III iv III iv V  i  V i      is this correct for approximations?

[ahinton]

*i am becoming scared of the choices.  you know.  picking the WRONG one.

I thought that it was abit late for that for you...

excuse me while i shuffle a bit.

I'm trying to imagine how some soft-shoe shuffling might be compatible with some species counterpoint...

I WILL BE RIGHT BACK.

We never doubted that for a moment...

let ahinton take the next note.

Why? - and what's your reason for calling me that on this occasion? (or do I not really want or need to know?)...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

it's 3:12 am here, alistair.  what time is it for you?
put in your two cents on the topic, alistair.

must reread fux.  it's been awhile.  i think the entire 'gradus ad parnassum' is online somewhere's.

[mcgillcomposer]

what if the G# wasn't sacrificed at the beginning - thereby keeping the a minor 'feel.'

top voice: A G# A C D B A G# A
cantus f:   A E   F  E D E C B   A

also, you avoid octave B's on the second to last pair.  also, if you ended on a C in the top voice - wouldn't it sound more incomplete than a unison.  or you don't really worry about completeness precluding just the basic chord structures.

if we analyze the former:

top voice:  A G A C D B A B C
cantus f:    A E F E D  E C B A
chords:     i III iv III iv V  i  V i      is this correct for approximations?

The G# doesn't make it any more a minor-ish than the G natural. One is the natural minor, the other is part of either the harmonic or melodic minor.

Yes, the third in the soprano sounds less complete than the tonic; there is nothing wrong with this.

As for your harmonic analysis, the V chord at the end is really only possible if you include the seventh. Otherwise it is best treated as a vii6 or even a ii chord; yes, the progression ii-i is valid, it just doesn't occur that often in the repertoire after the baroque period. The rest of your analysis is possible, but is far from being the ONLY way. Oh, and considering the cantus is the bass in this exercise, you should probably notate the inversions: i III6 VI (not iv) III6 iv V i6 V(4/3) i.

[ahinton]

it's 3:12 am here, alistair.  what time is it for you?

When it was 3.12 a.m. fopr you it was 8.12 a.m. for me.

put in your two cents on the topic, alistair.

I think that I did that soon after the thread commenced 9although I'm, not sure that it was worth as much as two cents, which themselves are now worth less than 1p over here, you may not like to know)...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

well, i have a lot of pennies, alistair.  i usually unload them on unsuspecting 'mcdonald's' and 'wendy's' cashiers for 'happy meals' and 'kids meals.'  i had been wrapping them - but as one gets older - one just throws pennies hither and yon.  once i threw several in the garbage accidentally and did not bother to dig them out.

species counterpoint (you see - i am actively trying to merge this into a counterpoint discussion).  must re-read fux.  i feel so frustrated right now with not being able to see two species counterpoint without some sort of diatonic sound.  why can't i just let modal be modal.  i want to hear the chords despite the fact that modal voices wouldn't be so perfectionistic about chord progressions. 

[ahinton]

well, i have a lot of pennies, alistair.  i usually unload them on unsuspecting 'mcdonald's' and 'wendy's' cashiers for 'happy meals' and 'kids meals.'

Great for the said kids' digestion, nutrition and general well-being, no doubt - but what is your source for pennies in the land of In God We Trust, then?...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

spare change that i collect when dusting. 

[jlh]

spare change that i collect when dusting. 

...or fluffing??   

 

[ahinton]

spare change that i collect when dusting. 

But it is not part of your country's currency, so from what source does it originate? (wrote he, repeating the question in what he hopes is a clearer manner)

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

i don't iron and i don't fluff.  *ponders the meaning of this casually. 

alistair - what exactly are you saying?  that you think foreign currency falls out of the pockets here?

[mcgillcomposer]

species counterpoint (you see - i am actively trying to merge this into a counterpoint discussion).  must re-read fux.  i feel so frustrated right now with not being able to see two species counterpoint without some sort of diatonic sound.  why can't i just let modal be modal.  i want to hear the chords despite the fact that modal voices wouldn't be so perfectionistic about chord progressions. 

So write your own cantus, and then write a line that is NOT diatonic; the same basic principles apply anyway.

[ahinton]

alistair - what exactly are you saying?  that you think foreign currency falls out of the pockets here?

No - rather the reverse, I thought - indeed, I was wondering why, when your country uses dollars and cents, you nevertheless have pennies around the place and use them at certain retail outlets.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

? 1 cent = 1 penny  - same thing.  i just save up all the pennies and use them at once.

[jlh]

i don't iron and i don't fluff.  *ponders the meaning of this casually. 

LOL well you won't get the complete definition from me! Suffice it to say some... um... industries find it useful. 

[ahinton]

? 1 cent = 1 penny  - same thing.  i just save up all the pennies and use them at once.

OK, so, at last, the explanation; "penny" is an accepted American euphemism for "cent". Now if only you'd said that about five exchanges ago...

Best,

Alistair

[jlh]

OK, so, at last, the explanation; "penny" is an accepted American euphemism for "cent". Now if only you'd said that about five exchanges ago...

Best,

Alistair

I was wondering what you were getting at... I thought "penny" was universally accepted as the lowest denominator of currency.  Was wondering if you were somehow going to tie this into the British idiom of "spending a penny" in regards to the kids' happy meals and such... lol

[ahinton]

I was wondering what you were getting at... I thought "penny" was universally accepted as the lowest denominator of currency.  Was wondering if you were somehow going to tie this into the British idiom of "spending a penny" in regards to the kids' happy meals and such... lol

I must confess that I hadn't thought of that (well done for doing so!), but I would not in any case have wanted to expand on the subject of "kids' happy meals" in any case, frankly. To "spend a penny" in UK now usually costs 10p or 20p (in some places it's actually 50p) and, of course, the penny used now (and for the past 26½ years in UK) is (as you know) 2.4 times the value of the one that was around when the term "spend a penny" was - er - coined - which happened to be a time in which there were British coins of smaller denominations (halfpenny, farthing, half-farthing and even at one time quarter-farthing - respectively half, one quarter, one eighth and one sixteenth of an old penny). The farthing disappeared in the latter 1950s but I seem to recall that the halfpenny survived until 1971 when Britain scrapped its old currency and adopted the one that it has today. When this new currency replaced the old one, new half pennies were still minted for a while and then dropped. I don't know why they don't now drop coins below 5p, actually. One problem over the years has been when the cost of manufacturing and distributing low denomination coins became greater than the monetary value fo the coins themselves.

Way back in around 1820, a florin was first minted in Britain which bore the words "one tenth of a pound"; had someone only had the wit to go one stage farther by scrapping a lot of the smaller value coins and making the penny one tenth of a florin, Britain could have adopted a pound divided into 100 equal units about a century and a half before it actually did.

All of this has nothing whatsoever to do with species counterpoint, so I apologise for this digression into British numismatic history!

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

can't imagine what one would do today with a 'half-penny.'  phyllis diller said that when she first started working she made $60. a week.  then, she says - 'you can't even park for $60. now.'  well, in philadelphia - you can park for $11-12. for an hour or two.

i haven't had time to get back on track with this counterpoint.  i am very interested in it, though.  carry on!  *got sidetracked with mayla's thread about diminished chords leading to major chords.  at first i though - aha, she's wrong on that one.  but, then i did what she said and sure enough.  magic trick.  or rather, theory trick.  we're so used to going Major, minor, diminished - that skipping a step seems wrong. 

then, i got mad about pedal points.  of course i know what a pedal point is - but the point was trying to make was that mozart actually had a pedal piano which would pedal the points.  is this so hard to understand.  blah.  i feel kinda grumpy now.

[mcgillcomposer]

then, i got mad about pedal points.  of course i know what a pedal point is - but the point was trying to make was that mozart actually had a pedal piano which would pedal the points.  is this so hard to understand.  blah.  i feel kinda grumpy now.

A "pedal piano"? Mozart played on a fortepiano with knee levers.