Leveling off on progress?

[Bob]

I prep up pieces, but they always seem to get to a certain point.  Some "same" level, regardless of the piece. 



(thinks awhile more, gives up)  Half-formed idea.  There's something to it though. 

[quasimodo]

Not sure what you mean exactly, but to my understanding, it's about how your playing of a specific piece evolves with time, is that correct?

[m1469]

So, do you have a question ? 


*follows Bob around*

[Bob]

I'm not sure what I mean either.

(thinks)

The pieces aren't finished.   I'm not happy with where they end up at. 

Maybe they're too difficult?

Maybe my practicing isn't planned out enough.


There's something though... Not knowing how to improve to the next level?  What's wrong and how to fix it?     Hmmm.... Maybe I need outside advice....   

Or it could just be a matter of sticking with the pieces longer. 


Something about the time too.  I don't want to devote my life to just one piece.  I want to move on eventually.  Something about progressing in a piece, and beyond your limits, at a reasonable -- and enjoyable -- pace.  (Bob attempts to read his own mind)



(looks over shoulder more often, paranoid of being followed)

[quasimodo]

have a look there :

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4750.msg45125.html#msg45125

[counterpoint]

You can never know, whereto you are travelling with a piece. Often it's a very long travel and there are some detours.

As long as you are discontent, you are getting better... 

[quasimodo]

That might sound a tad bit like metaphysical babbling but there’s the idea that musical pieces are live beings which evolve on their own, nurtured by each performance made of them by hundred thousands different interpreters.
I think we must keep that idea in mind to build a valid concept of each piece we learn/play. Arguably, a musician, be it a composer or a performer, has an intention to suggest an emotion to the listener. I believe that in order to find some kind of serenity about your playing of a given piece, you need in the first place to know exactly where you want to lead your listener, otherwise you can’t never be sure whether what you do is correct, at least to your own standards and, preferably to a generally acceptable standard of musicality.
But, obviously, technique has its importance to let you able to actually realize things the closest possible to your initial intention. Yet I’m a firm believer that it’s the musical intention which leads to the appropriate technique and not the other way around.

[quasimodo]

OK sometimes, I feel I should refrain the urge of posting...

Btw, counterpoint, about your signature, there's a version of it that's even stronger as far as piano-ideology is concerned :

"Play as fast as you can, so you will have less time to make mistakes"

[m1469]

I'm not sure what I mean either.

(thinks)

The pieces aren't finished.   I'm not happy with where they end up at. 

Maybe they're too difficult?

Maybe my practicing isn't planned out enough.


There's something though... Not knowing how to improve to the next level?  What's wrong and how to fix it?     Hmmm.... Maybe I need outside advice....   

Or it could just be a matter of sticking with the pieces longer. 


Something about the time too.  I don't want to devote my life to just one piece.  I want to move on eventually.  Something about progressing in a piece, and beyond your limits, at a reasonable -- and enjoyable -- pace.  (Bob attempts to read his own mind)



(looks over shoulder more often, paranoid of being followed)

I'm just curious.  Do you feel you have accomplished everything that you actually "envision" for the piece, and it is STILL somehow not quite what you want -- or do you mean that you can never get to a point where you are really producing what you "envision" ?

[slobone]

Ah yes, the old plateau problem. We've all been there I think. I'm more and more inclined to think that that's exactly the time when you can begin to make real progress, if you go about it right.

You need to be very analytical to decide to do next. First of all, is it a technical or an interpretive plateau?

If it's technical, where exactly are the hard parts? Which measure, which notes, which hand? Concentrate your practicing there for the time being. Try them slow, fast, hands separate, hands together, looking at the keys, looking at the music, eyes closed, eyes open, whatever works. Don't worry if it seems like you're spending a long time on even a short passage.

If it's interpretive, try changing things around. Don't always play it the same way. Bring out an inner voice, exaggerate the rubato, sing along while you're playing, make up a story to go with the piece (seriously!). Listen to recordings, but don't copy them slavishly.

In fact exaggeration is a good rule when you're learning a piece. Most amateur pianists play without enough contrast. There's not enough difference between their p's and their f's (or they just play everything forte throughout). The accented notes of a melody aren't accented enough, the staccatos aren't short enough, the dotted notes aren't dotted enough, etc.

My teachers always told me "when it sounds exaggerated to you, it's probably just about right for the audience." And of course, you can always bring it back down again if you go too far.

In other words, if you're bored with a piece, don't just practice it the same way every time. Work on different aspects of it on different days.

On the other hand, there's always the possibility that the piece really is too difficult for you -- or you've been doing it so long that you just can't stand playing it any more. In that case, then yes, move on to something else...

[Bob]

I seem to bog down in a piece and eventually things come up and I drop it.

[m1469]

So, are you planning to answer my question or not ? 

[Bob]

I did answer your question..... (grumbles)

I don't feel like my interpretation is complete or that I ever achieve it.


Third round of clarity....
Do you feel you have accomplished everything that you actually "envision" for the piece,
Bob:  No, I have not accomplished everything I envision.  I don't think I'm envisioning the end result either.  Something gets blurred in the process.  I "learn" / absorb the sound of my own practicing.

and it is STILL somehow not quite what you want
Bob: Yes and no.  I haven't achieved the vision in the first place.

-- or do you mean that you can never get to a point where you are really producing what you "envision" ?
Bob:  Yes, I'm not producing the vision.

[rc]

Hey Bob, do you mean that you bring pieces up to your usual level of performance, but can't get it to the 'legendary' level that you know is possible but so far exists only vaguely in your imagination?

The other day in practice I found myself refining some details in a piece I learned some time ago.  Mostly ornamentation.  When I first got into classical ornamentation was completely foreign to me, so I spent a good amount of time getting used to them and making them work in the music, which was the level it stayed at for a long time (while I went on to treat other weaknesses).

So then I've come back and refined the details a little - more clarity, connection, trying to get the proper effect of 'passing' and 'decoration'...  And it brings me a little closer to the ideal, the pieces sparkle a little more in those places.

But it took time to grow, I had to spend enough time on the plateau getting everything comfortable before it would even occur to take some ornamentation to the next level.  I think we have to be comfortable with our level and savor it, and with work and time we refine more and more details, getting closer to the ideal.  Probably never reaching it, but along the way we can be proud of each successful step, and eventually be able to say to ourselves "it's not perfect, but it's DAMN good!"

Reminds me of a thread lostinidle posted a while back, I always make sure to read when he posts:  https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,24720.0.html

[Bob]

Hey Bob, do you mean that you bring pieces up to your usual level of performance, but can't get it to the 'legendary' level that you know is possible but so far exists only vaguely in your imagination?

That's a good way of putting it.  Something along those lines.

I suppose just have to have a few pieces scout out new ground.  I just feel like I could getting to a higher level more efficiently. 

It seems that I keep going into more and more detail.  Bogging down that way.  Maybe focusing,  and learning to hear myself play enough, that I get to the point where I hear lots of mistakes.  Or realize, beomce aware of lots of mistakes.  Probably unneccesary.

[slobone]

Well, there's nothing wrong with going into detail. That's what polishing a piece is about -- details!

But rc has a good point. You don't always have to work on the same things if you feel like you're not getting anywhere. Switch off so you don't get bored. If there's a technical glitch in the hard part, work on your interpretation in the easy part. Try really listening to what you're playing, and how it would sound to an audience.

The only thing you don't want to do, in my humble opinion, is to let some parts of the piece get so far ahead of others that you'll never catch up. So you have to spend at least some time on the hard parts, at least until you're ready to give up completely.

By the way, you didn't mention a teacher. Are you taking lessons? If not, would that be a possibility? Hopefully a good teacher would be able to help you with some of these things.

[Bob]

Maybe it's not coming back from the detailed view.

No teacher.  I need to figure this out myself.  I have the background knowledge.  I really doubt a teacher would help this.  It's philosophical, just ideas.  That annoyed the heck out of a few of my teachers.  But it's an area where true progress can be made.


Thanks for the responses so far.  Appreciated.    I didn't think I'd get much response actually.

[pianistimo]

i thought i had a pretty good clue of what was going on, too, bob.  but, when i took a few more piano lessons ...i realized that what i thought i knew was 'old.'  in with the 'new.'  there are new and more efficient ways to do things.  get a young teacher.  act like you don't know anything.  that way you can start from scratch.  get some new information.  also, if you take a REALLY young teacher - you might get the lessons for half-price.  just ask them who they take lessons from and consider if that is the method you want to investigate. 

truly...the time and money invested in more piano lessons was very valuable to me. 

ps another idea would be to crash an MTNA summer convention.   what i mean - is join another teacher and just come with them.  you come away with a bag of stuff which you can peruse later at your leisure.  also, you can sit in on these mini-lectures about various assundry piano related things and ask questions. 

[rc]

That's a good way of putting it.  Something along those lines.

I suppose just have to have a few pieces scout out new ground.  I just feel like I could getting to a higher level more efficiently. 

It seems that I keep going into more and more detail.  Bogging down that way.  Maybe focusing,  and learning to hear myself play enough, that I get to the point where I hear lots of mistakes.  Or realize, beomce aware of lots of mistakes.  Probably unneccesary.

Reading over the posts again, I think Quasimodo was closer in his post.  That your problem might be with the interpretation, that you don't have an entirely clear conception of the piece as a whole.  So when you get into the details you have troubles connecting the ideas with each other and plugging them into the whole?

When you mention getting bogged down into the details and noticing more mistakes, that also rings a bell for me...  It's happened before where I practice the details for too long that my focus gets warped and I start practicing mistakes.  What seems to work is when I can leave tiny details to my subconscious and shift the focus more towards listening.  If I've done the technical practice properly this creates a sort of connection between the sound I intend to make and the motions to execute it, to the point where the details of execution are second nature and I can put nearly all my focus on the music.

I've found that listening-execution link especially important for the difficult sections, because spending too much time tends to create an anxiety over those sections which becomes an obstacle in itself - the anticipation of a difficult section screws up the focus and makes it more likely to practice mistakes (thus more anxiety, negative feedback loop, insanity).

Are we any closer?

[Bob]

Yes,..... lacking interpretation of higher elements. 

But zeroing in on more and more details of plain notes and rhythms....

[slobone]

I'm finding this to be the case for me as well. When I'm frustrated by lack of progress because of technical glitches, I temporarily abandon the search for technical perfection and work on interpretation instead. Often I find that really focusing on interpretation makes the technical part more manageable.

In other words, as rc said, what do you want the music to sound like? What does it sound like in your head? Then try to make your fingers do whatever's necessary to achieve that sound. That will take the focus (obsession) away from the really nasty bits.

Another tip: listen to a recording if you've got one. Do you like what the performer's doing? Try to achieve the same sound yourself. (I think there's no shame in an amateur imitating a performance by a famous pianist, as long as that's just the first step and not the end of the process.)

[Bob]

Or I'm thinking maybe just learn to accept less quality and learn to enjoy it more.

I'm wondering if I do the same thing in other areas.  Go too much indepth too quickly and lose sight of the overall goal.