Building speed.. scales... etc.

[alb-d]

Ok, I try and do a hr of scales and a hr of Hanon .. everyday. I just started Hanon.

Ok, I know the proper fingerings.. I go 4 octaves.. going up I have no problems. But sometimes coming down I stumble.

Okay to build speed, should I include more motion of the upperbody (shoulders, forearm...etc)... any advice?

[amelialw]

just practise your scales slowly and evenly. When you can play your scales well slow then slowly increase the speed. Wow, you practise 1 hr of scales and 1 hr of hanon, I don't think that is necessary.

[pet]

I agree with amelia.  You don't want to increase the speed unless you have all of the notes, because if you do it will end up sloppy and will take you longer to fix.  Practice the scales slowly and evenly as amelia suggested, and make sure you get all notes.  Also, I would suggest exaggerating lifting your fingers.  This way when you begin to play them fast your scales will be clear because you lift your fingers high enough.  One hour of scales and one hour of hanon does seem a bit much.  Are you practicing more than one scale, and more than one hanon exercise?  That would explain it.  You have to spend a good amount of time on each scale, how about practicing one particular scale a week?  This way by the end of the week you should be able to play that scale with no problem.  Also, practicing scales with the same fingering also helps, this way you will be practicing the same fingering over and over again, and before you know it you will have to problem playing scales coming down.

To play scales at a good tempo, you have to exaggerate lifting your fingers, and keeping you hands relatively close to the keys.  Also, pivoting your wrist quickly when you change hand position.  For instance for C major it would be the thumb for the right hand and 3rd finger for the left going up.

Hope this helps!

[amelialw]

you should go with half an hour for each. Btw, practise only 1 key a day for technique.

[alb-d]

I run thru all 12 keys that's why it takes me an hour..

and on the hanon .. I try and learn a new excercise everyday, while still trying to perfect the one's I previously have studied

btw.. how high should the wrist be....  while striking the fingers high?

[amelialw]

your fingers should be lower than your wrist

[nick]

your fingers should be lower than your wrist

interesting. I would like to see this done.

Nick

[pet]

Your wrist shouldn't be too low or too high, it should be level.  If you were to put a ruler across your wrist through the top of the hand, the top of your hand should be level with the ruler  (hope that made sense).  This way you will be able to raise your fingers correctly....if your wrist isn't level your fingers will be restricted.

[m1469]

Rather than playing slowly just to play slowly, I think it's wise to consider what the actual aim of slow playing is.  The aim of playing slowly is not simply to enable one to play quickly.  I think that the actual physical aim of both fast and slow playing is found within the same, fundamental, kinesthetic experience; "complete" comfort and ease.   Any kind of tightness is the arch-enemy of speed playing.

There is nothing more magical about scales and hanon than there is about a musical passage, in terms of making our mind and body understand what is required of it to be comfortable while playing.  The "selling point" behind spending hours, days, weeks, months, years, and even decades in the "study" of these exercises is that it is supposed to help us in our repertoire and overall skill.  If that is true, then there must be something transferrable from exercises to repertoire, meaning, there is the same fundamental, physical value within both.  If that were not the case, then there is even less reason to spend time in mere exercises like Hanon since there would be nothing transferrable from it to repertoire.  If it IS the case, then why not go straight to the music since it contains the same physical principles and is what one is truly after anyway ?   I guess that is a bit of a side-note.

What one is achieving in slow play must, by necessity, have transferrable data into fast playing -- otherwise there is no point.  The only physical reason to play slowly is to develop comfort and ease with each finger, hand, body position and motion -- when this is achieved, theoretically, one has the dominion to play in any manner (including speed) that is required by the music (assuming that the composer knew what s/he was doing when writing). 

If an individual has truly achieved this comfort and ease, there is no reason to speed up in several increments, because it is as simple as binary code -- you are either in/on or out/off of comfort and ease -- whatever the tempo.  It is better to grasp the comfort at slow tempos (if necessary), and then play 'at tempo' in small sections (eventually combining the sections), always aiming at a very similar kinesthetic experience as the slow playing produced.  You will feel it if you are doing it correctly, and you can trust it, too.  If we do not develop this comfort in our slow playing, we will certainly not have this in our fast playing, and the faster we play, the more frantic the experience will be.

Once you have discovered a kinesthetically pleasing way to play a passage, it is your's forever and you have something to always compare what you are doing to.  It must become the very essence of your work, and everything else in terms of physicality is concerned, must be formed and molded in order to freely allow this kinesthetic experience.  Finding that particular comfort is not something anybody can *make* happen for you -- not even hanon  .

Try sitting at the piano, perfectly balanced in your body and on the bench, with both your hands fully resting on the keys.  You should not feel a gravitional/backward pull that makes your hands want to slide off the keys -- if you feel this then you are sitting too far away, and note, if we play like this we are fighting gravity and ourselves, constantly causing our body to compensate for this (and this is "static" in terms of developing a clear, kinesthetic sense of comfort). 

You should be able to completely rest your arms, shoulders, back, butt ... everything -- and, if you do this correctly, you should experience a sense of "oneness" with the instrument.  That "oneness" is present only when there is not any kind of "static" mixing into our kinesthetic signals and experience.  I personally first found this sense of kinesthetic comfort in this way (though at the time I didn't know what it was nor what it meant), and at times in the past, if I have gotten really mixed up, I take a moment to center myself this way (but it also is a WAY COOL feeling, so sometimes if I am scattered in my life I just sit at the piano like that for as long as I want).

In essence, we should be able to feel this same sense of comfort at the instrument -- no matter what we are playing, and no matter how quickly we are playing it.  If we are not, then we need to re-evaluate our approach.  I am personally still in the process of perfecting this, but the more I delve into it, the better I feel, and the better I sound when I play (it seems  ), whether it be fast or slow.

Hope that helps .

[amelialw]

what I meant is that if you're stuggling with scales, you should slow down, and make sure you are even before you increase the speed again. I know that it is the best method.

[opus10no2]

what I meant is that if you're stuggling with scales, you should slow down, and make sure you are even before you increase the speed again. I know that it is the best method.

It isn't really, unevenness is a result of either a weak link in the chain from a technical perspective, or a mechanical perspective.

The weak link isn't even apparent at a slow speed.

The best method would be to isolate the 'weakest link' and figue out whether your motions are inefficient and/or your fingers or wrists are just too slow.

[nick]

Ok, I try and do a hr of scales and a hr of Hanon .. everyday. I just started Hanon.

Ok, I know the proper fingerings.. I go 4 octaves.. going up I have no problems. But sometimes coming down I stumble.

Okay to build speed, should I include more motion of the upperbody (shoulders, forearm...etc)... any advice?

Although I know all the scales well, I think it more time well spent to work on just the music. That 2 hrs. you spent on exercises would be better working on music. If there is a scale passage in the music you are working on, you will know it very well with that time spent. Using weight of the arm to produce tone, I would start slowly or course and very comfortably play repeated tough passages, transfering the weight from finger to finger. After awhile it will be almost effortless to increase the speed somewhat without any apparent extra effort. Stay at that speed repeatedly and over more time, increase a bit etc. I have experimented with only going slowly for extended time and when trying to go much faster, very difficult if not impossible. I need the gradual increase over time. It's like if you are driving on the highway at 80 mph for awhile, then slow down to 60, 60 seems very slow, as the reverse is also true. It appears brain and muscles both must get used to the faster piano playing. Just make sure you don't get caught up in the push for speed syndrome where you substitue clarity and correct notes for speed. It's prudent to back up in speed at times if needed. And I would also add don't think you can continue repeatedly at performance tempo a passage. Much better, once your speed gets to medium fast, to stay there and only once in awhile play at performance speed. This again has been my experience. Others may have different methods for achieving speed. 

Nick

[amelialw]

that's very true, spend at the most 1 hr on hanon and scales, use the rest of the time to work on your repertoire

[m1469]

I need the gradual increase over time. It's like if you are driving on the highway at 80 mph for awhile, then slow down to 60, 60 seems very slow, as the reverse is also true. It appears brain and muscles both must get used to the faster piano playing.

Nick

If one has developed a true comfort with a given passage, all that is needed is to "do whatever it takes" to keep that comfort.  If that is varying speeds, that's fine -- sometimes I appear to be completely stagnate in a position just to really feel comfortable there.  But, I don't think there are really any hard and fast rules about speeding up and slowing down, other than the fact that one must go as slowly as it takes to develop the physical comfort with a given passage.  Of course, a general rule of thumb is to slow it down if it's not working when fast or, break it up into smaller chunks (or maybe both  ). 

Now, mental training is of course part of the mix.  If "grasping" the quicker speeds does not happen while one is playing slowly, then it is a time-saver to go staright to the mental game and mentally practice the passage quickly, before actually playing it physically.  If we are only playing spots 'at tempo' this is quite easy to do.  And, of course one cannot go through large sections playing from 10 mph to 80 mph -- it should be done in small sections (sometimes extremely small, depending on the passage; from one note to the next, from one beat to the next, etc).  It is not that it cannot be done in other ways, I have just found it to be more efficient and a better use of my time and effort to do as I have described it.

If we just wait for our fingers to train our brain, it's going to take a really long time.  Our minds should always be able to tell our bodies what to do.

[kevink]

I would like to represent to you a minority opinion that opposes almost all the previous posts here. 

You're probably not spending too much time on technical exercises.  If you cannot play scales fluently, and by that I mean with utmost evenness of tone and control in a number of articulations with each hand alone and in combination, you will probably find it most beneficial to practice at least the amount of time you are putting in right now on technical exercises. 

As you grow, you'll learn what works and what doesn't, and you'll make your time more productive; kudos to you for seeking out advice on how to improve in this way, and I have to say I'm once again dismayed to see so many recommendations of "technique through the repertoire" in the responses to your questions.  I don't know of a single great piano teacher that recommended against intensive technical practice.

I second the suggestions made by previous posters, that evenness and control is the most important function of scale practice.  Try watching your thumbs; when passing them under your hand (for example, in the RH ascending: 12312341), take care that the motion is as smooth and regular as possible--by that I mean, no sudden jerks, and keep the thumb at key-level.  It helps to move it, on the surface of the key, behind each finger as it plays; so, when I play finger 2, my thumb is behind finger 2, and when I play finger 3, my thumb is behind finger 3, always resting at key-level and not raised up.  You'll have to practice very slowly to get this to be instinctive, but I've found tremendous benefits in evenness with this kind of practice--and once you can play evenly, slowly, you can play faster and faster--speed walls cease to be an issue, in my experience.

"thumb over" technique works to a certain extent but does not grant total control and evenness at higher speeds--plus, it breaks up your motion into a series of jerks, instead of one long legato motion up and down.  I don't know if you've been practicing in this way, but it may be the source of your difficulties if you have.  It's a technique that has a religious following on this board, but is by no means universally taught by good piano teachers. 

In the end, you'll find as you advance more and more, that finding your own solutions to technical problems is the best way to go---so take everything people say on here with a grain of salt!  Including my post of course.  Experiment for yourself.  And...

KEEP PRACTICING SCALES!!!  It would be a mistake not to.

[m1469]

You're probably not spending too much time on technical exercises.  If you cannot play scales fluently, and by that I mean with utmost evenness of tone and control in a number of articulations with each hand alone and in combination, you will probably find it most beneficial to practice at least the amount of time you are putting in right now on technical exercises.

And, why is that exactly ?  I think it is indeed imperative to know and be *extremely* comfortable within each scale, but I think the reason why is different than what you are indicating.  In terms of learning to play with even tone and control and in a number of articulations, what do scales have to offer that something like Bach's invention no 1, or Chopin's prelude no 3, or Mozart's scalar runs in the adagio movement of his sonata in c minor, K 457, for example, do not ?  The point is that there are priniciples at work in playing "evenly" or quickly or what have you -- which necessarily will be found in both excericises and repertoire (if they are not found in both then studying the former will not apply in the least to the latter). 

Actually, my only point is that the principles of quick playing (or any playing, for that matter) won't be found in a particular pattern of notes over another, but rather in one's general approach (I think I am actually, accidentally, sounding as though I am making an argument for separating out technique from a musicality  ).

As you grow, you'll learn what works and what doesn't, and you'll make your time more productive;

I agree here.

KEEP PRACTICING SCALES!!!  It would be a mistake not to.

Again, I agree -- but mainly for the sake of mental/aural comfort and physical/aural knowledge of the keyboard topography.

[opus10no2]

A while ago I went for a while without practicing scales.

They had 'miraculously improved in the time in between, how?

I had 'perfect' technique, my brain knew how to co-ordinate an efficient scale, but my mechanique was less developed.

My fingers had just simply gotten faster, fitter, more agile from the regular practice of other things which involved the same areas of the musculonervous system.

Play faster by playing as fast as you can, there will be improvement as long as you push yourself.

[spaciiey]

Start slowly. Don't play fast until you get the notes and fingering right first try, both ways as well as a solid sound. Then build the speed up slowly, ie don't start at 100 right away... start at a speed that you're comfortable with.

IMO hanon is a bit of a waste of time.. I wouldn't really keep doing it.

[kevink]

In terms of learning to play with even tone and control and in a number of articulations, what do scales have to offer that something like Bach's invention no 1, or Chopin's prelude no 3, or Mozart's scalar runs in the adagio movement of his sonata in c minor, K 457, for example, do not ?
 

If you want to be able to play with fluency in all keys with an evenness of tone and control and articulation, then you'll have to provide for me a repertoire list a mile long that would offer up the kind of intensive technical program that simply practicing one key per day in a number of different scale combinations would.  The fact that scales are an abstraction is their strength--they offer a greater challenge to one's technical facility than anything in the repertoire, so once the challenge is met, the repertoire ceases to present technical obstacles.

Is it easier to learn the scale with the Chopin prelude, or learn the Chopin prelude with the scale?  The answer seems self-evident to me.

If you learn your scales, you won't have to spend time during repertoire study on perfecting the motions of scale passage work.

I'd go so far as to say that technique-through-the-repertoire study is musically discouraging, and bad for the musical growth of a student.  The more time a student spends on the technical challenges of a piece he is learning, the less he can devote himself to the musical expression, and the more the purpose of musical expression begins to disappear behind the fog of technical accuracy challenges. 

If a student can isolate and surmount a technical challenge, such as found in scales, then the same technical challenge in the repertoire will never seem to him as such a challenge.

There is no greater transgression against art than reducing the human and emotional power of a work by Mozart, Bach, you name it, to nothing more than a technical feat to be overcome.  In a perfect world, there would be no element of "technical challenge" in the pursuit of expression through this art---so we should endeavor to help our students (and ourselves) contact the art as much through the musical, and as little through the technical, plane.

I speak with some residual bitterness, because I never got a thorough technique grounding, and so it always was an up-hill battle with each piece of music for me--to master the technical challenges before getting to the musical expression.  Really, there should be no separation in one's practice--but you will have a hard time convincing a student who has no technical grounding that this is the case.  He who doesn't know his scales will always be inclined to separate the music from the mechanical challenges, when learning repertoire.

[m1469]

hee hee... I am going to make this short since I am about to go teach for eternity  .  Perhpas I will be back later.

First of all, unfortunately, you have based your entire response on the idea that I have said there is no reason to know scales -- in this respect, you are wrong.  I have agreed, actually, that it is very important to know well and be able to play them, but for different reasons.

Please tell me exactly how scale work in e minor is going to technically help a person play Chopin's prelude no 4 in e minor ?  Please note, I am not saying there is no carryover in scale work -- as a matter of fact, I have repeatedly said just the opposite.  And, I have not necessarily said that a person must learn their scales from the piece (however, perhaps studying the same scale as a particular piece can be very efficient  ).

The benefits of knowing our scales are primarily aural and topographical -- however, there IS some sheer physical carryover in playing these groups of notes (or ANY group of notes, which is my point) to repertoire.  But this here :

There is no greater transgression against art than reducing the human and emotional power of a work by Mozart, Bach, you name it, to nothing more than a technical feat to be overcome.

I think this is pretty humorous, actually, considering the fact that this is precisely what people attempt to do by saying "here, spend 2 hours a day on these exercises and you will be able to play such and such a composer's music with ease and grace" -- that is just as silly to me as it seems the other is to you.  If isolating technical challenges is so musically discouraging for people, then why do people recommend spending so much time doing just that ?


Gotta run, bye bye 

[mcgillcomposer]

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, but I have never done a Hanon-like exercise in my life, nor have I ever practiced scales,  and I am doing just fine.

[opus10no2]

kevink, your logic is flawed.

In studying a piece of music, the finished product is a result of -

1 Memorisation (in general)

2 'Finger memory' and efficient motions

3 Musical technique command and interpretation


Now, the final ingredient is overall dexterity, and the whole thrust of your argument revolves around this.

Scales are hardly the best exercise for general dexterity  

[amelialw]

If you want to be able to play with fluency in all keys with an evenness of tone and control and articulation, then you'll have to provide for me a repertoire list a mile long that would offer up the kind of intensive technical program that simply practicing one key per day in a number of different scale combinations would.
this is what I meant. just try this method...

[opus10no2]

Excuse me, but that only helps playing *scales* in all keys.

More practical to playing is to be able to transpose the piece into different keys.

[mcgillcomposer]

Excuse me, but that only helps playing *scales* in all keys.

More practical to playing is to be able to transpose the piece into different keys.

I love this guy...uh...I mean YOU.

[ted]

Scales per se, played in the usual manner, are now of no relevance, physically or mentally, to my purpose in playing the piano. I have gone through times when I used them but I always twisted them up in various finger sequences and combinations and never went straight up and down the same way each day; that would bore me rigid. As Bernhard remarked a long time ago, even as pure exercises they are lacking because they use some fingers disproportionately more than others.

Having said that, they are a legitimate choice, like everything we play. If people enjoy playing scales all the time then good luck to them.

[kevink]

If you want to be able to play with fluency in all keys with an evenness of tone and control and articulation, then you'll have to provide for me a repertoire list a mile long that would offer up the kind of intensive technical program that simply practicing one key per day in a number of different scale combinations would.
this is what I meant. just try this method...

What method?  The "learn repertoire without taking time for any technical studies" method?   I did. 

[kevink]

hee hee... I am going to make this short since I am about to go teach for eternity  .  Perhpas I will be back later.

First of all, unfortunately, you have based your entire response on the idea that I have said there is no reason to know scales -- in this respect, you are wrong.  I have agreed, actually, that it is very important to know well and be able to play them, but for different reasons.

Please tell me exactly how scale work in e minor is going to technically help a person play Chopin's prelude no 4 in e minor ?  Please note, I am not saying there is no carryover in scale work -- as a matter of fact, I have repeatedly said just the opposite.  And, I have not necessarily said that a person must learn their scales from the piece (however, perhaps studying the same scale as a particular piece can be very efficient  ).

The benefits of knowing our scales are primarily aural and topographical -- however, there IS some sheer physical carryover in playing these groups of notes (or ANY group of notes, which is my point) to repertoire.  But this here :

I think this is pretty humorous, actually, considering the fact that this is precisely what people attempt to do by saying "here, spend 2 hours a day on these exercises and you will be able to play such and such a composer's music with ease and grace" -- that is just as silly to me as it seems the other is to you.  If isolating technical challenges is so musically discouraging for people, then why do people recommend spending so much time doing just that ?


Gotta run, bye bye 

There's a lot of sheer carryover from practicing scales.  That was my point; that scales should be practiced for the purpose of developing evenness of touch and variety of articulation in scale passage work, and working on technique in an abstraction (such as scales) is more productive than working on technique "through the rep" because:

--it offers a more intensive and thorough approach to building good habits of movement

--being divorced from the literature, the work done on technique is not seen as an obstacle to musical expression

You boiled my thoughts down to "here, spend 2 hours a day on these exercises and you will be able to play such and such a composer's music with ease and grace."  That's not what I'm getting at--of course the sum total of musical expression is not to be had in the physical dexterity of scale work.  The point is that, if the composer's music presents a physical dexterity problem, it's better solved away from the music than in the midst of it--for the reasons I enumerated.

[kevink]

kevink, your logic is flawed.

In studying a piece of music, the finished product is a result of -

1 Memorisation (in general)

2 'Finger memory' and efficient motions

3 Musical technique command and interpretation


Now, the final ingredient is overall dexterity, and the whole thrust of your argument revolves around this.

Scales are hardly the best exercise for general dexterity 

Scales are an excellent exercise for mastering certain physical motions that turn up over and over in the piano literature.  Where's the flaw in my logic, please?

[kevink]

Scales per se, played in the usual manner, are now of no relevance, physically or mentally, to my purpose in playing the piano. I have gone through times when I used them but I always twisted them up in various finger sequences and combinations and never went straight up and down the same way each day; that would bore me rigid. As Bernhard remarked a long time ago, even as pure exercises they are lacking because they use some fingers disproportionately more than others.

Having said that, they are a legitimate choice, like everything we play. If people enjoy playing scales all the time then good luck to them.

I knew it was only a matter of time before Bernhard got mentioned.

Notwithstanding the fact that playing the piano uses some fingers disproportionately more than others (so that's not a very valid criticism of any single exercise).... it seems implicit in Bernhard's criticism (as you quoted it anyway) that the purpose of scale practice is building equality in finger strength--which is a pretty narrow attitude to take towards the possible benefits of scale practice.


Bernhard, where are you these days?

[opus10no2]

The motions a scale exercises are used all over the literature, sure, so then why not just use the literature as an exercise?

Obviously using the present piece you are studying as an exercise is somewhat inefficient, use other pieces in your repertoire to improve and maintain dexterity.

Like I said before, I know my scales, but I went for a period without really playing them regularly, when I came back to them I had improved.

This proves that once a technique and figuration is ingrained, it doesn't need much maintenance, and the primary thing that should be maintained is the facility of the whole mechanique.

[kevink]

The motions a scale exercises are used all over the literature, sure, so then why not just use the literature as an exercise?

Golly gee whiz.  I'm pretty sure I said why I favor scales over the literature as a technical exercise... if you disagree, why don't you point out what was wrong with my argument?

Like I said before, I know my scales, but I went for a period without really playing them regularly, when I came back to them I had improved.

This proves that once a technique and figuration is ingrained, it doesn't need much maintenance, and the primary thing that should be maintained is the facility of the whole mechanique.

Getting to the point where "a technique and figuration is ingrained"  is what we're talking about when we say "practicing scales."  As for the maintenance it needs.... well, you can speak for yourself.  Everyone's different.  I went for a while practicing scales, and then dropped it, and when I came back to practicing scales, they were worse. 

[opus10no2]

Golly gee whiz.  I'm pretty sure I said why I favor scales over the literature as a technical exercise... if you disagree, why don't you point out what was wrong with my argument?

Why would you rather play a scale than an etude?!

Getting to the point where "a technique and figuration is ingrained" is what we're talking about when we say "practicing scales." As for the maintenance it needs.... well, you can speak for yourself. Everyone's different. I went for a while practicing scales, and then dropped it, and when I came back to practicing scales, they were worse.

That will be because of the type of pieces you play, of course rapid constant scales are a better exercise than a nocturne, but it you find numerous etudes that exercise the same facets of mechanique, for either hand, then surely that would be better to play?

How long did it take you to ingrain the figuration and technique to play a scale?

For me it was natural from the start, it took a few minutes.

The rest of my time has been spent with other things, and they exercise the facets of mechanique which are involved in scales, and so my scale facility is improved without even playing scales.

[m1469]

hee hee... well, what a mess.  Poor alb-d, I wonder what informations s/he can use out of this thread ?

If you want to be able to play with fluency in all keys with an evenness of tone and control and articulation, then you'll have to provide for me a repertoire list a mile long that would offer up the kind of intensive technical program that simply practicing one key per day in a number of different scale combinations would.
this is what I meant. just try this method...

What method?  The "learn repertoire without taking time for any technical studies" method?   I did. 

No, if you read upward amelialw is suggesting that alb-d use a similar "method" as you are suggesting, and s/he is agreeing with you . 

Along those lines, I will say that kevin, I can understand what you say, to some degree, about feeling like you have "missed out" on developing a technical foundation when you were first starting out; I did, too.  So, to "remedy" the situation, in preparation for my first concert, I decided to spend the months before it in literally *at least* 2-3 hours a day in purely excercises and so on.  I got really, fantastically good, actually -- at playing scales and certain exercises  . 

I still had big problems in my technique that I hadn't been able to solve until just recently, and I still had major gaps in my overall conceptualization about the piano that I also have not been able to get to the root at until just recently.  Sometimes I could play quickly back then, but it was always hap-hazard and caused a lot of tension in my body.  Basically I was a complete mess despite my time in the beloved exercises and, honestly, despite the fact that I had been unequivocally inspired during the years before that point,  I got *completely* burned out ... go figure ?  What a rip off !!   

--being divorced from the literature, the work done on technique is not seen as an obstacle to musical expression

Unfortunately, I think that being divorced from the literature CAUSES technique to be seen as an obstacle to musical expression.  I am freaking out a little bit now because, well, I have never done Hanon and never intend to and also, I am never again going to spend hours in a week on mere exercises like Czerny and Brahms (unless I like the musical value ) -- I am just realizing at this very moment that because of not spending the time in exercises that you are mentioning, I am obviously never going to reach my full musical potential since I just won't have the technique  .  I guess I will just have to settle for teaching instead  .

You boiled my thoughts down to "here, spend 2 hours a day on these exercises and you will be able to play such and such a composer's music with ease and grace."

And you boiled all of my thoughts down to :

There is no greater transgression against art than reducing the human and emotional power of a work by Mozart, Bach, you name it, to nothing more than a technical feat to be overcome.

Are you actually even reading my posts   Anyway, I guess we'll just both have to find a way to get over it, eh ?

That's not what I'm getting at--of course the sum total of musical expression is not to be had in the physical dexterity of scale work.  The point is that, if the composer's music presents a physical dexterity problem, it's better solved away from the music than in the midst of it--for the reasons I enumerated.

So, I think there is actually some merit to this statement above, IF that is what the individual needs at the precise time in order to mentally and physically cope with a given passage (I can think of one of my current challenges that I might benefit from this kind of thinking).  But, to tell a person that they ought to spend the next ___ years studying scales and excerises for ___ amount of time everyday before they will be able to express themselves musically is just plain blind belief (been there, done that) and artistic murder as far as I am concerned.  Personally, I am generally more motivated by the music.

Earlier you took the liberty of graciously letting us all know that there are not any good teachers in the world who would teach lit practice over exercise practice.  That brought to mind a pannel discussion I once observed with Julliard, St. Petersburg and Moscow conservatory trained masters (all of whom have *definitely* gone the whole scales and exercises routines), answering questions on practice-methods.  These guys hold teaching positions in University and well-known conservatory, and they balance their teaching out with performing careers as well.  Their closing advice was as follows :

(I will paraphrase)

"And, kids, do yourselves a big favor and instead of spending hours in technical exercises, take the sections from your music and from pieces that you would like to play, that are particularly challenging, and use those as exercises."

I think that's interesting in light of your words of wisdom regarding how silly and wrong all teachers who think this way are.  I am also quite curious as to how many people actually took their advice ?  I am betting that most of them were too scared to divorce themselves from whatever regime they had set up with their teachers (and, I can understand this, too). 

I appreciate your thoughts, kevin, because they have helped me to become more clear on mine.  I guess eventually we will all just get over our bluddy selves since we are all going to die anyway ... LOL.


Cheers ! 

[amelialw]

The "learn repertoire without taking time for any technical studies" method?   I did.

You really should'nt do that. Your standard of your playing will drop probably if you carry on like that. Spend at least hald an hour on technique.

I have never done Hanon before and my technique is still excellent according to my teacher, I don't find it a neccesity except for younger students.

do yourselves a big favor and instead of spending hours in technical exercises, take the sections from your music and from pieces that you would like to play, that are particularly challenging, and use those as exercises
no, do not ever do that, that is bad advice seriously, If you want to be good do technique, there is no other way.Just get to it. And I don't know what kind of teacher would give that kind of advice unless the teacher is just a lousy teacher.

[mcgillcomposer]

The "learn repertoire without taking time for any technical studies" method?   I did.

You really should'nt do that. Your standard of your playing will drop probably if you carry on like that. Spend at least hald an hour on technique.

I'm not sure about this. I can play Tchaikovsky's first concerto, and am currently having no problem with Chopin's Op. 25 No. 12. Like I said above, I never did any of these technical exercises (not even scales), and I do NOT consider myself to be the exception; I consider my case to be quite common.

[amelialw]

your teacher never asks to listen to your technique? I am doing my ARCT's Performers, technique is not required for that exam, but my teacher still listen's to my technique.

[mcgillcomposer]

your teacher never asks to listen to your technique? I am doing my ARCT's Performers, technique is not required for that exam, but my teacher still listen's to my technique.

Never. It is evident in the pieces I play.

[amelialw]

yes but what if your scales actually sound worse than they do in your repertoire that you play? even many teachers who aren't very good still ask to listen to technique. And do you go for piano exams?

[mcgillcomposer]

yes but what if your scales actually sound worse than they do in your repertoire that you play? even many teachers who aren't very good still ask to listen to technique. And do you go for piano exams?

[m1469]

And who cares if the scales sound worse out of context of the repertoire that I play (which, I assume, they don't)? No one is going to ask me to start a concert with a G major scale.

I might  .

no, no, no ... I WILL !! :  "Mcgill, please start a concert with a G Major scale" -- thanks, she says with a smirk.

*should be in bed*

[amelialw]

haha...

[sassafras]

Eons ago when I studied piano form10 years I never played scales nor did exercises after the first year. My piano teacher did not allow chords nor arpeggios, either. Now, as a means to get back into playing after my 38 year hiatus from playing, I find that 2 hours a day at Hanon and "baby" exercises in the first Burnam 12 a day book have indeed helped me "progress" - either that or the mere fact I have been playing an average of 5 hours a day.

Hanon helps with speed and accuracy. I "see" it and hear it. Once I get back to Level 1o playing I will not spend so muich time on Hanon and certainly not the Burnam exercises. In meantime I have ordeed four more boks of technical exercises, to go with my since April acquisition of 90 piano music books.... Variety keeps me going.

I have never played scales and have yet to get that far in Hanon -- I just finished first 20 exercises.

Hanon definitely helped my work on Fantasie Impromptu.

[opus10no2]

your teacher never asks to listen to your technique? I am doing my ARCT's Performers, technique is not required for that exam, but my teacher still listen's to my technique.

This is a funny way of thinking.

[m]

Ok, I try and do a hr of scales and a hr of Hanon .. everyday. I just started Hanon.

Ok, I know the proper fingerings.. I go 4 octaves.. going up I have no problems. But sometimes coming down I stumble.

Okay to build speed, should I include more motion of the upperbody (shoulders, forearm...etc)... any advice?

I highly doubt an hour of scales and another hour of Hanon will do any good if you play them just for sake of playing.
In piano playing physical and mental processes are very tightly woven together. It is not enough to play the scale or Hanon evenly and listen carefully to what you are doing.
There are hundreds of other things to pay attention to and everything is in details--small, but crucial for a perfect execution.
It is impossible to get more or less useful advice over internet without seeing where you are and what you are doing.

I'd highly recomment to find a good and experienced teacher.

[m1469]

It is impossible to get more or less useful advice over internet without seeing where you are and what you are doing.

I'd highly recomment to find a good and experinced teacher.

Some of the best advice I have ever seen on an internet forum   .


This :

I highly doubt an hour of scales and another hour of Hanon will do any good if you play them just for sake of playing.
In piano playing physical and mental processes are very tightly woven together. It is not enough to play the scale or Hanon evenly and listen carefully to what you are doing.
There are hundreds of other things to pay attention to and everything is in details--small, but crucial for a perfect execution.

Is more or less what I have been trying to say all along, you just put it a lot more succinctly than did I  .

[opus10no2]

Some of the best advice I have ever seen on an internet forum   .

Of course teachers can help with unusual problems, and observe something which needs correcting about technique, but aren't the fundamentals equally applicable for everyone?

Call me big headed, but I think I know more than the average teacher 

[m]

Call me big headed, but I think I know more than the average teacher 

Well, let's put it like this--you have no idea how little you know about technique and piano playing, and every your post reveals it very clearly.
The sad thing, you are not in rush to find it out.

[kevink]

How long did it take you to ingrain the figuration and technique to play a scale?

For me it was natural from the start, it took a few minutes.

The rest of my time has been spent with other things, and they exercise the facets of mechanique which are involved in scales, and so my scale facility is improved without even playing scales.

You can't learn to play a scale in 16ths at quarter=200 in a few minutes.  And the technique is what I'm working on when I practice scales--not finger strength.  Your strength and so forth improves by itself with hours of practice, I agree.  But fluent scale technique doesn't happen without practicing scales.

I said this in another post:  if you are in favor of practicing for technique from the literature, and you practice a scale in Mozart, or maybe the Beethoven IV concerto--you've just abstracted a scale from music and you're practicing scales.  Why wait for the problem to hit you in a piece you're trying to learn?  Work on scales every day, instead.  That's my point...

[opus10no2]

Well, teachers have to know about *other people's* techniques, I only have to know about my own, and I feel I do.

I say I think I know more than the average teacher because I believe in different ideas and principles than the majority of teachers who follow (IMO) misguided methods.