Is physical punishment justifiable?

[thalbergmad]

Prommy, i want to watch the golf.

I will argue with you again later.

Thal

[prometheus]

Pianistimo, children, and all other animals, learn things by the outgrowth of their innate abilities and their natural instincts.

If you want the child to have behavior of a specific kind you need to make sure that the innate abilities of a child grow and develop in the 'correct' way.


Rewarding a child or an animal was based on the behaviorism of Skinner.

The idea is that a child is a clean sheet and that you teach it correct behavior by rewarding correct behavior.


What actually happens is that you are conditioning the innate abilities and instincts of a child or animal.



We know now that things like language and morality grow from a 'seed' that is planted by genetics. You need to 'feed' a child language and then the 'tree of language' will grow. Depending on what type of language you put in it will be a 'English tree' or a 'French tree', etc. If you don't feed it then it will never grow.

Same with morality. Morality is also a 'seed' in a child. It needs to be nurtured so that it grows the right way. Spanking does not make sure a child's sense of morality grows and develops the right way.

If you spank a child then the child will believe that inflicting pain can be moral behavior in some cases. If you don't spank a child it will learn that violence is not a way to solve problems.


The most important way to raise children is to teach by example. If you are always calm, compassionate and considerate to your children they will end up the same way. Of course that doesn't mean you need to spoil them.
If you want to learn your children that they need to work hard to achieve something then you need to make sure that their natural behavior outgrowth grows that way.

[thalbergmad]

If you are always calm, compassionate and considerate to your children they will end up the same way.

Gross generalisation.

Violet kray was always calm, compassionate and considerate to her children.

Nonsense proposal.

Thal

[prometheus]

The only way that can happen if there is a genetic disposition against different kind of behavior or if there are other people that influence a different behavior.



You shouldn't see it as a generalization but as an example. Because that is what it is. Of course it is much more complex than that.



You can argue all you want, but in the end there is only one reality. And my view is based on research of the nature of reality and not on personal experience or something irrelevant.




A child will never learn to speak Mandarin Chinese unless the parents input mandarin Chinese. Or the teachers do. Or their friends do. Or the television does.

Or understanding the language has to be hard-coded into the child, which for language is never the case.

The same goes for everything else humans can learn. It works the same way.

You have to stimulate the innate abilities for them to grow and then they will grow a specific way.


If a child sees an angry parent that has lost his temper and inflicts pain upon the child with the intention of inflicting pain, what do you think is stimulated? Peaceful non-violent behavior or aggressive violent behavior?

According to everything we know about how children learn things, and following the example of language acquiring, there can be only one answer.


If a child is exposed to the german language the innate language capability will develop along the lines of the german language.

If a child is exposed to violent behavior, or spanking since you want to exclude it, then the innate ability of the child to inflict pain will develop along the lines that copy the behavior of it's parent.


So when the child is physically strong enough it will force it's will on other children, it's parent or it's teacher, just as the parent did, using violence. Because that's what has been taught. And that's exactly what you describe is the problem.

[amanfang]

I haven't read all of the replies...

But I was spanked as a child (probably until I was 11 or so), and I'm neither a psychopath nor violent.  When I was growing up, I knew the difference between spanking and violence. 
In my opinion, there are right ways and wrong ways to spank.  I never felt that my parents were angry at me when spanking (sometimes they purposefully waited until they cooled off), and we always had some sort of "talk" as to why I was getting spanked, and that they still loved me no matter what.  Infractions had a set limit as to the number of "swats" to further prevent out-of-control spanking ("You're going to REALLY get it now!"). 
Now, I would agree that some parents seriously abuse their children when they spank, or they don't use it consistently so that it becomes a "last resort."  When it becomes a "last resort" I could see kids doing the same with others.  This was not the case in my family.  I think that in parenting, there needs to be a lot of thought put in to how one will discipline children.  Children are selfish by nature.  If all they do is get rewarded for good behavior, eventually they will get to the point where they don't care about being rewarded or not and do their own thing.  Perhaps the perceived benefits of doing wrong outweighs the "rewards" for "good behavior."
I would actually be interested to see how many violent criminals are in prison as a direct result of their parents spanking them to correct behavior. 

[debussy symbolism]

If this is a younger sibling, you're probably stuck.  That's how it is.  Besides that, your parents should take care of bigger problems but if someone's leaving water running and doors open, they should know.
 

You could always put a lock on your door.  That keeps the siblings out and will put a little more protection over your stuff if the door's open.


The reward thing.  I've heard that several times in psych classes or sessions.  If the reward is always present, the subject won't respond unless they get the reward.  You want the reward to be temporary and the behavior to last.  So if the subject isn't always sure they will get a reward, it's more likely to stick.  That's what I've heard.  And that's what I've seen with students -- They start asking if they will get the reward, and what is it, and then they want something else and something more.

Siblings don't understand each other.  I think that's one of the laws of the universe.  Logic won't matter.  Actually, a lot of what you say probably won't matter.  Sincerity is good, but after that I would probably give up. 

Physical force isn't going to work.  Manipulating behavior might and could be fun.  I would just protect my stuff and stay out of the way.

Tell your parents of course.  See if they can do anything.  You could also "tweak" the results of things that are annoying -- stop the sink up a little so it overflows if someone leaves it running, ask your parents why the door is open if the AC is on, etc.

The thing is, is that losing is never an option. If you lose, the sibling instantly gets the notion that he or she will always win and get her/his way. The only way to abort this is to make him or her lose. Unfortunately, my parents are at work and so have little control over the actions of my sibling during the day, and my parents were never good disciplinarians. This also ties in to some of "Prometheus's" claims, but I will go to that later. Sincerity will not work. Ironically, such a sibling, in this case a girl sibling, has an innate logic in these matters. Although she won't accept any logical explanation as to why her actions are wrong, she instantly sees the logic behind "winning" and getting her way. Any acts of sincerity will instantly conspire against you as they will be seen as acts of softness.

Concerning whether spanking, or other physical pedantry is of any effect, I must also say that the outcome of such teaching will also depend on the personality of the person. As "Prometheus" pointed out, there is a genetic disposition in behavior. My parents never used spanking or any physical contact to inculcate proper habits, yet my younger sibling is more violent, more aggressive than I am. Therefore, genetics obviously have a role in determining behavior.

Actually I have to disagree with Prometheus on the following matter. Spanking does teach. Simply put, students that are familiar to spanking will not be more violent in class, simply because they know the punishment. Students to whom spanking is non-existent will not know the punishement and will be more likely to act out. Concerning whether or not physical punishment addressess to criminal or violent activity, it depends on the severity of physical contact. I do not think that spanking will generate violence. I think there is a line between using physical contact to teach, or using physical contact as an outlet of emotion. If parents hit the child for no reason, then the child will get the notion that he is allowed to hit for no reason. If the parents spank a child for a reason, which the parents supply to the child, then the child will assimilate the behavior that is more positive in value and less violence based.

[thalbergmad]

The only way that can happen if there is a genetic disposition against different kind of behavior or if there are other people that influence a different behavior.

You shouldn't see it as a generalization but as an example. Because that is what it is. Of course it is much more complex than that.

You can argue all you want, but in the end there is only one reality. And my view is based on research of the nature of reality and not on personal experience or something irrelevant.

1. Then your previous statement was wrong. You said "If you are always calm, compassionate and considerate to your children they will end up the same way". But that is not always the case. There are many outside influences can can completely negate the efforts of a parent.

2. Yeh, of course it is much more complex than that. You should be a little bit more careful before making sweeping statements.

3. You seem to be trying to apply some kind of scientific formula to bringing up children which is of course impossible, laughable and impractical. You can quote from as much research as you want, but personal and cumulative experience is of equal importance. I suggest you take your head out of your books and go and get a job in a nursery.

4. I am now officially bored with this thread. You can even argue about the correct definition of the word "violent" if you want to, but i still fail to see the damage of a good old "gentle" smack on the bum.

Bye and thanks

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Actually I have to disagree with Prometheus on the following matter. Spanking does teach. Simply put, students that are familiar to spanking will not be more violent in class, simply because they know the punishment. Students to whom spanking is non-existent will not know the punishement and will be more likely to act out.

100% agree.

Spanking should be used sparingly, but a child who knows that they cannot be spanked, thinks they can get away with anything.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

I would actually be interested to see how many violent criminals are in prison as a direct result of their parents spanking them to correct behavior. 

0?

[teresa_b]

I agree that physical punishment for children is harmful and promotes the idea that violence is an acceptable way of dealing with someone. 

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but speaking from personal experience as a mother--Much of the time, hitting a child is an expression of anger and frustration in the parent, and in my opinion, virtually never justified. 

Yes, I swatted my son on rare occasion--and it was always when I was tired and at wit's end with some misbehavior.  Sometimes a combo of parental fatigue and particularly annoying behavior on the kids' part leads to a less-than-optimal coping method. 

I do think putting a kid over your knee and coldly "caning" or spanking is is heartless and creates fear instead of understanding and respect.

Teresa

[counterpoint]

This is a really shocking thread for me.
I never thought, that there are people in this forum, who support (or even accept) corporal punishment. I'm really shocked!

[prometheus]

But I was spanked as a child (probably until I was 11 or so), and I'm neither a psychopath nor violent.

Same here.



And I disagree with the rest. There are bad and very bad ways to spank. It has no positive effect for the child at all.


Sure, it seems to serve it purpose. The child does something you don't want. So you inflict pain.
The child will avoid pain and thus avoid doing what you don't want it to do.

But it doesn't learn anything positive. The only thing it learns is that it has to lie to avoid pain. And that you can inflict pain to get your way.

[prometheus]

Actually I have to disagree with Prometheus on the following matter.

You have the right to have your opinion. But no on in the field of psychology would even consider your position.

The only way inflicting pain works is that creatures or children will avoid pain.

Like the dancing bears. They don't learn to dance. Their instinct to avoid pain gets conditioned to make them 'dance'.

Same with children. They don't learn anything. They just try to avoid pain. Nothing positive is learned.

[prometheus]

Some people expressed the notion that if you don't spank your child the child will end up dominating you and the child will determine what goes and what not.



That's just absurd. You don't have to use violence to show the child who is in charge.

[pianistimo]

i think what is shocking are the crimes being committed by younger and younger ages.  when put into jail they suddenly become submissive to instruction.  why?  because they are probably threatened within an inch of their life.  it's what they were seeking from their parents and never got (just kidding  ).  seriously, though - don't you think that there are some things that are life lessons?  didn't you ever have a time where you did something bad as a child and you knew it?  what makes your conscience clear is to absolve the problem by either saying 'i'm sorry' - or if very very stubborn (as you will often find 3-4-5 year olds) that WILL NOT SAY 'i'm sorry.'  what do you do then?  they are not sorry.  what will make them sorry?  a pat on the head and telling neighbors and friends they were born this way? 

i'm sorry but not saying 'sorry' doesn't cut it.  you are now in a battle.  who's battle?  the child's battle?  no.  you are a parent.  you have to be proactive.  you can say 'ok - but NEXT TIME - you have to say 'sorry.'  when next time comes - are they going to say 'i'm sorry?'  NO. they never will.  they have developed a habit right then and there.

you can see it on playgrounds when a mom calls her child to come to her.  (ok - i'm guilty- my children always say 'five minutes, mom.')  but, generally - you need them to obey and be quick about it.  what if it was a life threatening situation.  are you going to argue with them about getting into the car or locking the door (or unlocking it!)

when you have children you are suddenly faced with some decisions.  if you make none - and let the child make them all - who is running the show?  the children.  i don't care how genetically disposed they are to good behavior - there is always going to come a time when they challenge their parents.  what do you do?  always spank.  of course not.  but, they shouldn't challenge you every day.   R- E S P E C T - a little respect. da da da da.

btw, i have three - and none of them were spanked much.  and, yes - they are a bit spoiled, imo - but i try to do a combination of what promey says AND expect respect.  do i always get it ?  no.  sometimes i wonder why  - but for women it is much harder to discipline a child (especially of the opposite sex).  it almost seems better for fathers to be the real disciplinarians of their sons - and mother's their daughters.  it wouldn't work to have a sibiling spank a sibiling.  they will never gain the respect even if it is called for.  i think you need to have a gentle talk with your sister when she is calm and explain everything you did to us.  and, explain about good behavior and bad behavior and that you feel that it is improper for you to spank her - especially since she is of the opposite sex - but that you WILL use (list items that will be either taken , or privileges taken) things that your parents have agreed upon for different infractions.  then, hold to it.  allow her to get her things back when she has complied with chores and rules. 

not only that - you can take her to friends homes and gently let her watch how other families use discipline.  rewards can be as simple as going out somewhere with you - or having time to play with friends - go to a movie.  if rewards are OK - then punishments such as saying - you will not get to go to the movie until your room is cleaned up -is a motivating thing.  relying on instinctual behavior might leave the room dirty for a month.

[prometheus]

Please shut up Pianistimo. We are talking about the health are children.

You even have children, for g.. ooh well...




You are just brabbeling out of the back of your head. Children that get threaned with death suddenly become submissive. We all know the bible tries to teach to stone your child to death when it is disobedient. But do you really agree with that?

[thalbergmad]

You have the right to have your opinion. But no on in the field of psychology would even consider your position.

Really, but i wonder how many mothers would?

[thalbergmad]

You are just brabbeling out of the back of your head. Children that get threaned with death suddenly become submissive. We all know the bible tries to teach to stone your child to death when it is disobedient. But do you really agree with that?

She is a mother and has REAL experience.

Oh yeh, i am sure she stones her children every night before bed time.

Get real

Thal

[prometheus]

Really, but i wonder how many mothers would?

The average mother is much more ignorant than the most qualified specialists, regardless her experience and best efforts.


There are mothers that think it's a good idea to cut away all the sensitive parts of the female reproduction organs, for example.

And this is not just something excessive or an exception. It is a mainstream thing in some cultures.

Just like spanking is culturally accepted against all reason, so is female circumcision culturally accepted against all reason.

[thalbergmad]

The average mother is much more ignorant than the most qualified specialists, regardless her experience and best efforts.

Well, i am sure all the mothers here are glad to hear that. Having letters after your name is no guarantee against ignorance either.

Perhaps all mothers should immediately give up their children to "qualified specialists", who will bring them up withtout pain and will love them compassionately "always" and never spank them. We will then have a world populated by "Paris Hilton's".

Great.

Thal

[prometheus]

Well, i am sure all the mothers here are glad to hear that. Having letters after your name is no guarantee against ignorance either.

Not against ignorance in general, but assuming that there is nothing wrong with the education system or the credentials, it is a guarantee against ignorance in that field.

Perhaps all mothers should immediately give up their children to "qualified specialists",

No need to. If parents just listen to the qualified specialists then that's enough. And of course your proposal is not practically possible. But yes, having a degree in children psychology or pedagogy will make you more knowledgeable about parenting.

Now the issue is how rational people can apply their knowledge in there personal life.

who will bring them up withtout pain and will love them compassionately "always" and never spank them. We will then have a world populated by "Paris Hilton's".

Paris Hilton was never spanked?


Just because Paris Hilton is an example on how you think parenting has failed that doesn't mean that Paris was not spanked. Five points for the person that can categorize this logical fallacy

Anyway, she might just as well be spanked and her insecurity, leading to her absurd behavior, might be a direct result of this. Who knows?

And the actual cause of her being spoiled is probably not so hard to figure out with all the attention she gets in the media because her family is super-super rich.



I already said several times that not using violence against your children is not the same as spoiling them with billions of dollars while not giving them the attention they need.

[thalbergmad]

No need to. If parents just listen to the qualified specialists then that's enough. And of course your proposal is not practically possible. But yes, having a degree in children psychology or pedagogy will make you more knowledgeable about parenting.

Well, i don't think there are enough to go around considering how many parents there are.

Parenting makes you more knowledgeable about parenting.

I am sure the average parent does not need someone with a degree sitting in on their play sessions to give advice.

[thalbergmad]

Anyway, she might just as well be spanked and her insecurity, leading to her absurd behavior, might be a direct result of this. Who knows?

You appear to

[thalbergmad]

Not against ignorance in general.

Oh, i am glad you have now made that clear.

Thanks

Thal

[thalbergmad]

I am now going to watch Amir Khan boxing on the telly.

Perhaps he needs a specialist with a degree ringside to discuss why he has entered a profession of violence.

See ya later.

Thal

[pianolearner]

An observation: At large extended family get togethers, the WORST behaved children were there ones who were often spanked, or, threatened with spanking if they misbehaved. Perhaps it ingrains a belief that they can push things until they are spanked, and they they haven't really misbehaved until that point...

[amanfang]

I was spanked for disobeying, whining, lying, and blatant disrespect.  While I had my moments, I believe that my parents spanking produced well-mannered behavior.  None of this 3 count nonsense.  Consistency is the key.  If Mom or Dad said something once, and I did it again, I knew I would be spanked for it.  If kids are given empty threats with spanking, and then finally spanked after MANY threats, of course kids are always going to push the limit.  It it because there is no discipline apart from that.  We were never spanked for something like spilling milk.  And there were other infractions that "earned" other discipline that was non-spanking.  But as I said before, there was always a set punishment, and my parents would wait if necessary so that they didn't punish in anger or frustration.

Of course rewarding good behavior encourages good behavior, but on the flip side punishing bad behavior will also discourage bad behavior.  Both of those need to happen.  How does it help children to think that there will never be negative (even physical) consequences for their actions?  This doesn't automatically equal violence to get one's way either.   

[prometheus]

For all those that think that a child is taught things though punishment in reward this is a video I could find by a person from the field.


Now Chomsky may be disliked for his political view. But this is actually something from his professional field. He was one of the first that challenged Skinner's behaviorism, etc.

The relevant part starts after 1:47.

[thalbergmad]

While I had my moments, I believe that my parents spanking produced well-mannered behavior. 

It worked with you, it worked with me and countless others as well.

Do not need a degree to see that.

I was spanked as a child and i have not murdered anyone yet.

Thal

[pianolearner]

I should have also added that the best behaved children were never spanked. They have grown up to be decent adults too.

[thalbergmad]

Well behaved children do not need to be spanked.

Thal

[prometheus]

It worked with you, it worked with me and countless others as well.

I was spanked as a child but now I argue against spanking.



Does that prove that spanking works? That's absurd. That large documentary I linked to actually handles this 'argument':

If you move this argument to other things it's utterly and utterly absurd.

[thalbergmad]

Post as many you tube links as you like, it does not prove you are right.

It only proves you have the time and energy to find them.

Thal

[prometheus]

You want me to publish published peer reviewed papers? Or do you want to have a debate based on "Yes it is!"?



Anyway, this is becoming pointless.


Points I made are not understood because of lack of knowledge about the subject. Terrible logic and reasoning is used. Irrelevant personal experiences are brought into the picture.


So here we have a few people in denial, not open to actually explore this issue and be educated about this subject because they have already decided their position regardless of evidence or arguments.




Maybe it is telling that no one has been able to put forth any good argument FOR corporal punishment.

[thalbergmad]

Anyway, this is becoming pointless.

Agreed.

Oh look, i have found a link about spanking.

Not difficult is it?

https://www.tldm.org/news6/child.discipline.htm

[thalbergmad]

https://www.nospank.net/barberj.htm

[counterpoint]

Oh, interesting link   

https://www.tldm.org/news7/DrLaura2.htm

[thalbergmad]

You want me to publish published peer reviewed papers?

Not really. we are getting nowhere here.

Thal

[prometheus]

Haha, one of them quotes the bible. The other agrees with everything I have said.

[thalbergmad]

https://www.beliefnet.com/story/67/story_6770_1.html

HAHA, this one mentions the Bible as well.

[thalbergmad]

haha, spanking web page

https://student1.lycoming.edu/~gerchad/home%20page.htm

[amanfang]

Wow, 8 times for her age.  That seems to be a lot.  Although Mom spanking was never as bad as Dad.  

[thalbergmad]

https://www.angelfire.com/zine2/defense_of_spanking/

[thalbergmad]

https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17010115/

Gets boring after a while.

Interesting debate that has both supporters and non - supporters.

[thalbergmad]

Irrelevant personal experiences are brought into the picture.

Would they not be used to assist your Degree holding experts to develop their theories and come to conclusions about the effect of physical punishment?

[prometheus]

No.

[thalbergmad]

So none of these experts ever interviewed any parents?

[counterpoint]

So none of these experts ever interviewed any parents?

Parents are not experts, they are part of the problem 

[thalbergmad]

Parents are not experts

Perhaps not, but do their experiences count for nothing?

[prometheus]

Personal experiences are never objective. They can't be the basis of scientific research.


Reality is not easy to phantom. It can be very deceptive. That's why scientific method was invented. You do controlled double blind experiments. Really, personal experience is useless. You often need to do research on a large number of people over a long period of time.


I claimed that I do not have suffered any negative effects because of being spanked as a child, though it was minor.

But how could I know this for sure. Maybe there are negative effects.