Composition forum

[mattgreenecomposer]

Someone posted this idea in another section in another thread but since it was almost a year old I thought I'd post it here.
......as a  composer.

There are other forums for music composition on the the internet.  I have joined 2 of them (the 2 biggest ones) and to be honest I spend all my time here.  The composers I have ran across on these forums (not piano forum) are extremely uneducated and totally rude.  I am going to let you in on a secret, an unfortunate fact that plagues us "serious composers"--- most people who major in composition at music school do so because they can't get a degree in any thing else!  Yes it is twice as much work but unfortunately in today's liberal school system, ANY form of composition passes without real knowledge of music theory or orchestration as long as the composer can back up their work as being sincere in front of a Jury.  As a holder of 3 college degrees I know how the system works.  We can't hurt peoples feelings and tell them their works sucks and no one will buy it in the real world.  We have to let them pass so they will pay a huge tuition which will support our salary.  And in addition, they don't have to even play piano at all to major in composition.

On the other hand Piano Forum has great people for the most part.  I think it's safe to say Piano requires more skill and time to master than any other instrument (hope Im not stepping on anybody's toes there.)  People who are really good on PF are generally humble because they know there is some 9 year old playing the same Chopin Etude on You Tube ten times better than them somwhere on the internet.  and those of you who talk like your awesome never post anything-(you know who you are.)
Let's keep it just piano here and if you want to start a composition thread than I think that's great.  But if you start a composing forum thing here, I think your going to regret the type of people it brings for the most part. 
 :)Thanks for reading.

[m1469]

Well, I think this is a good place for anybody who wants to learn and grow and contribute to others who want the same thing, including composers.  Personally, I would much prefer to see an "uneducated" comment here or there about something musical rather than another post about somebody's private parts or ways to use them.  I'm just sayin'.  So, in terms of the "kind of person" -- I say let them be attracted here .

Besides, we have several composers here already, including you, apparently ... so, what's the deal ?

*ushers all who want/need it to the theory lounge* 

[jlh]

And in addition, they don't have to even play piano at all to major in composition.

Don't most colleges require composition majors to pass a piano proficiency exam or take class piano if they cannot pass?  That's been my experience -- I used to give the piano diagnostic exams at a university.

[ramseytheii]

I love the atmosphere at piano forum.  Sure we argue a lot, but there is no doubt that everyone on here loves the piano, playing piano, listening to piano, and talking about it.  Viva piano forum!

Walter Ramsey

[m1469]

Actually, I didn't really think this through.  A plain old composers forum without them needing to be pianists at all ?  That is the consideration ? hmmmmm ....  I will admit, I like it to be piano specific, more or less (or at least for most stuff to apply to playing the piano) .

[ted]

I do not think I am a composer, despite having written hundreds of piano pieces, and probably not a pianist or a musician either in any of the normal ways these words are used, so take anything I say with a good pinch of salt.

I have to say that I am inclined to tentatively agree with Matt. On the face of it, a composers' forum seems a constructive idea but in practice what would it do ? Now playing the piano is different because there exists an objective basis to everything - the physical act of playing and how to do it most efficiently. There is real value in people posting details of their practice methods, how they finger double notes and all the rest because readers can try  everything for themselves and, every so often, find something which helps them a great deal.

I am not convinced that the creative mental processes of composition and improvisation can be described and assimilated in quite the same way.  This is because there is no objective basis to anything. Certainly, one can, indeed must, learn from constant exposure to others' creative ideas, but does the audition room not serve this purpose well enough ? Is not the actual sound musical bedrock ? Does it really require a lot of analysis ? I might like bits of it and dislike bits of it. I might compliment the poster on bits which strike me as outstanding. I might make a mental note of things to try out myself. What I cannot do is assess it on the sort of objective basis required for discussion because my response is completely subjective.

Now those who create music using theories and structures might conceivably talk about composition by making these things their objective basis for discussion. However, I do not use theories and structures at all, and so I lack even this toe-hold into discussion of composition. If composition were defined as the process of imitating musical structures of the past, then yes, a composition forum would have a clear function and contributions could be assessed on a clear basis akin to the fingering of octaves.

But who wants to produce imitations of music of the past ? I don't know about others here but I certainly don't. That's the sort of thing I used to do as a kid when I was learning chords and so on.

I must say, Matt, your picture of the economic and social domination of music is very depressing. Unfortunately your background implies you know what you are talking about and I have to concede its truth, even from the little experience I have of it.  All I can say is thank goodness I don't have to be part of it and I can play and create exactly as I please. Of course this is yet another reason why I wouldn't fit in to a composers' forum. Indeed, I have been roundly rebuked in quite pompous fashion on such forums for simply stating the truth about myself.

Why all this sourness about what should surely be an activity of immense personal freedom and joy ? It's a mystery to me. Tell me why and then we'll both know.

[mattgreenecomposer]

"Don't most colleges require composition majors to pass a piano proficiency exam or take class piano if they cannot pass?"  -jlh

C'mon.  My dog could pass this exam.

Why all this sourness about what should surely be an activity of immense personal freedom and joy ? It's a mystery to me. Tell me why and then we'll both know. -ted

I'm not sure what you mean?

[Derek]

Matt, I agree with you to a large degree. I'm a member of a large composition forum, and it seems like most people go around on there getting their creativity shattered by some arrogant remark. A friend of mine on said forum tells me they were in a long slump because of negative comments they received on the forum, yet they seek more. I really think that composition forums, probably due to the subjective nature of composition as ted described, invites more opinions, and thus egos, into conversation, than piano playing.

[ted]

I meant exactly what Derek mentioned, Matt, an atmosphere which is contrary to fun, creativity and a desire to help one another. I don't know about anybody else but I play and create music to enjoy it, not to be miserable and argue about it.   

[mattgreenecomposer]

I agree with both you and Derek.  Thats why I dont want to bring it here.

"A friend of mine on a forum tells me they were in a long slump because of negative comments they received on the forum, yet they seek more. I really think that composition forums, probably due to the subjective nature of composition as ted described, invites more opinions, and thus egos, into conversation, than piano playing." -Derek

Yes, and the funny thing is that composition (in general) is  not really all that  subjective at all.  It's more objective than people think.  Great pieces have many many things in common, whatever style they are written in and these things can be measured to some degree. Piano is more cut and dry though.  Obviously Horowitz is a better pianist than me  because of many "concrete" factors that can be measured to any observer.  (speed, accuracy, range of dynamics etc.. the list goes on)
In composition, these concrete factors are not so readily apparent to the average Joe.  Much of it has to do with an emotional response to the observer and all of us are different so a piece will strike us all in different ways.  But we're not THAT different.  We're all subject to basic emotions like fear, love, lust, and it is the ability of a composer to pinpoint these specific emotions that makes him effective or not.  The more specific the better.
I wrote a 10 page paper on this in college (I also have a degree in Psychology) thats why I find this topic so interesting but it's not something I can sum up in a paragraph.
As for your friend, I wouldn't let someones comments intimidate him.  They're probably from some 5th grader posing as a composer on the internet or something.  I ask these people to post their music when I run into a situation like that and they never do!  Proves to you they don't have it.  Thats the beauty of this forum. 

[Derek]

prepare for a mind numbing ramble from the depths of my brain! 

I think I agree with you, but I'd have to put it in different terms to make sure:

"Music has both objectivity and subjectivity in it. There must be something universal about music or certain things like octaves and scales with familiar sounds in them wouldn't be appealing across cultures and to so many millions of people. Therefore, there must be something objectively studiable in music. On the other hand, there are a large number of people who genuinely enjoy things which are not universally loved, such as "atonal" music, death metal, etc. This suggests that although music has a large universal/objective component, it is largely subjective and there are a huge number of tastes and styles within it."

That's my thoughts on the subject summed up in a paragraph. I think subjectivity and objectivity are really intertwined in music. To assume that it is mostly objective would probably make one, as a composer, head towards baroque and classical ideals, and to assume it is mostly subjective would make one, as a composer, head towards extremely free ideals, such as in composition in the 20th century.   Therefore, I think, it is an option whether one wants to apply objectivity or subjectivity to composition. Some people enjoy non-objective, abstract responses from music, some enjoy objective abstract responses, some enjoy purely programmatic responses, and still others enjoy all these things.  That's why so much conflict appears on composer forums, I think.  The objective-obsessed ones and the subjective-obsessed ones, for whatever reason, clash pridefully with one another, because choosing the objective or the subjective in one's own music is, in itself, subjective. If that made any sense at all.

[mcgillcomposer]

Matt,

What you say re: university composition programs is so true. Most of the students couldn't say anything meaningful about compositional craft, even AFTER they complete their degree. The field of composition is packed full of ideological morons and is lacking in talented musicians.

[Derek]

haha, awesome. I'm SO glad I didn't go that route. Heck, I'm glad I didn't go the pro music route overall. I've got some professional musicians amongst my family and friends and I know from them it isn't exactly a bed of roses...