Bosendorfer - technical advice needed

[gerry]

I have a Bosendorfer 225 purchased new in 1969. It was finally showing the inevitable signs of age, so I recently had the key bushings, etc. redone (they bundled the keys and sent them back to someplace in Michegan) and the technician (an excellent highly-recommended person located in the San Francsicso Bay Area and trained at the Bosey facility in Austria) installed the new hammers. He glued them himself rather than get all new hammers since the stems were in fine condition. Overall, I'm really pleased with the resulting feel but the problem I'm having now is that several keys, especially around the middle range, are making a clicking sound when the hammers fall back on their rests. It's particularly annoying when playing rapidly repeated notes (think Toccata from Ravel's "Tombeau"). Is there a technician out there who has any advice as to what could be causing this, what more I should have had done or should do to correct this? As bad as the action had gotten before the work I had done, this noise is something that appeared after this servicing. I didn't have the leather "cushions" replaced so I'm wondering if they have become compacted and that the weight of the new hammers has somehow caused this?

Gerry B

[pianistimo]

*waits for answer, too.

this is a very wild guess from a person who is a far cry from a technician.  some part of the action in the middle of the piano is screwed up.  perhaps the glue he used wasn't enough to keep the hammers in place (after having played them with some force)?  what do they look like?  are they facing all different directions?  this is the problem of the last technician and they should fix it shouldn't they?  do technicians sometimes do things like car mechanics?  fix one thing and break another.

you could have someone else play the piano while you watch the action for possible problems such as the ones you mentioned.  i tend to think that the hammer heads are clicking with a little space that needs filling in with more glue or something.

bob, what do you think?

(i'm just filling in time until you get your problem solved.  kind of like 'car talk' when people call up and make noises that their car is making and the first three answers from the pros are jokes.  the final answer is the correct one).

[gerry]

Pianistimo:
Thanks for your reply. Actually the hammer work is "expert" as in nothing shoddy about it - as you can imagine I wouldn't trust my Bosey to just anyone. As I mentioned I just think it exacerbated a previously existing problem like the little leather pad rests (or whatever their called) being compacted. Interesting that you made the analogy to car mechanics as it is often the case with a car that when you replace an old part with anew one it puts strain on the other old parts and creates new problems. Actually am waiting for my technician to call back and I'm sure he will address the problem but I though I'd toss this out on the forum just to see what others who have had siimilar work done had to say. Thanks again for the reply.

gerry b

[gerry]

Sorry but I realize I need to clarify my question - the clicking noise occurs when I release the key and the hammer falls back completely, not when the hammer falls back in the first rest position while holding the key down.

[daniloperusina]

what could be causing this, what more I should have had done or should do to correct this? As bad as the action had gotten before the work I had done, this noise is something that appeared after this servicing. I didn't have the leather "cushions" replaced so I'm wondering if they have become compacted and that the weight of the new hammers has somehow caused this?

Gerry B

Leather cushions, do you mean the ones catching the hammer when the key is down? They are not involved anymore when the key is released.
What is involved are the repetition lever and the jack. The jack is the one pushing the hammer up, and at rest needs to go back to it's position under the hammer roll. A spring is helping it do that.
The repetition lever is what the hammer is resting on. It also operates with a spring, and returns to it's first position when key is released. The jack and rep lever work together. Something might be wrong with these. But only your technician will be able to diagnose and fix the problem there and then. There are so many parts interacting!

Also, what wears a lot during the years are hammer rolls! Did you let him put in new ones?
Each pin also needs proper bushing and friction. Problems here could also cause clicking sounds.

[gerry]

Thanks for taking the time to reply. My technician will be coming through my neck of the woods ont he 22 of Aug and will address the problem then.

[daniloperusina]

Well, if you have nothing better to do while you wait, release the key reeeaally slowly, and see exactly when the click occurs. If at all at that slow speed. But that could say something..

[gerry]

It's really hard to describe noises in words. The offending click (clunk, thunk - whatever) takes place thusly: If I push the key all the way down sliently then release it quickly on some keys I hear more than the usual low quiet thunk of the hammer falling back - some of the hammers are making more of a wood on wood click. There, that's the best I can do. In the meantime, I'll pull the keyboard and have a looksee. Thanks again for your reqlies.

[daniloperusina]

Gerry, you can check some measurements if you want:

Action in place, measure distance between hammer at rest and string. On your Bösendorfer it should be 46mm. If it's much greater than that, say 50-55mm you could have a problem of:

Distance between hammer shank and hammer rest.
Action out, you'll either see:
*a white cushion of felt under the hammer shank, just before the hammer head
  or
*a long strip of green felt under the hammer shank, just before hammer head

With hammer at rest, there should be a distance of 3mm between the hammer shank and the 'hammer rest' on Bösendorfer. If the shank is touching the felt, it's wrongly adjusted. If the distance is too small, the noise you hear could be the shank bouncing on the felt. It could make some sense, since you have new, heavier, hammers installed, and also explain why the problem wasn't there before.

The measurements are from a reference book I have. They are of course a little bit of give and take, as the technician must make all things cooperate.

If this is the problem, the technician can solve it in a few different ways. Increase the distance by shaving off felt, or raise the hammer. Or, the repetition lever spring needs tightening in order to better resist the load of the falling hammer. However, the spring needs to be really well regulated for another purpose. But if it wasn't checked and adjusted, it could actually be a bit to loose, since you probably have heavier hammers now.

Well, just a few thoughts. I'd be really interested in what you see when you pull the action out!

[gfiore]

 From you description of the work done to your 225, I can only conclude that new hammers were hung, and the old shanks were retained. This is a big no-no on a 38 year old piano. And if this is the case, the tech that hung the hammers should be shot. Hard, worn, old knuckles, will indeed make quite a bit of noise while falling back onto the repetitions after the key is released. I will also conclude that the back rail felt has also not been replaced. Also a big no-no on a 38 year old piano.  Hard, old, and compacted back rail felt will also produce noise(clacking) as the  back ends of the keys return onto the felt.
 On such a high caliber piano no short cuts should be taken when returning an action to it's original factory perfect state. All new Renner parts should have been ordered, assembled, aligned, and traveled onto the action frame. Meaning all new hammer shanks, repetitions, and hammers. In addition to the key rebushing, all new back rail felt,  and felt front rail punchings should be replaced too.  also at this age, the back action(damper underlevers and any felts) should also be checked for wear.

[daniloperusina]

But isn't that too aggressive without knowing what the deal was?
I agree about replacing the knuckles, though, as they are one of the most heavily abused parts of the action.

All new Renner parts should have been ordered, assembled, aligned, and traveled onto the action frame. Meaning all new hammer shanks, repetitions, and hammers.

..adding a lot to the cost. It could still be done, of course, with only the hanging of the hammers needing to be redone.

But still you are right, of course, in how a proper and complete job should be done.

[iumonito]

From you description of the work done to your 225, I can only conclude that new hammers were hung, and the old shanks were retained. This is a big no-no on a 38 year old piano. And if this is the case, the tech that hung the hammers should be shot. Hard, worn, old knuckles, will indeed make quite a bit of noise while falling back onto the repetitions after the key is released. I will also conclude that the back rail felt has also not been replaced. Also a big no-no on a 38 year old piano.  Hard, old, and compacted back rail felt will also produce noise(clacking) as the  back ends of the keys return onto the felt.
 On such a high caliber piano no short cuts should be taken when returning an action to it's original factory perfect state. All new Renner parts should have been ordered, assembled, aligned, and traveled onto the action frame. Meaning all new hammer shanks, repetitions, and hammers. In addition to the key rebushing, all new back rail felt,  and felt front rail punchings should be replaced too.  also at this age, the back action(damper underlevers and any felts) should also be checked for wear.

Couldn't agree more, but the question remains why does such a young piano require such aggresive care.  I would hope unless the piano was suffering conservatory-grade abuse that adustment and voicing should do the trick.

By the way Gerry, since you are having your techinician over, do ask about how your soundboard ribs and bridges are doing.

[daniloperusina]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a concert-grand, in order to stay on top, requires change of hammers, strings etc every 5 years or so.

A home-grand is of course not comparable. But still, 1969-2007 is a very long time.

On a funny note, there was this 100 years old Steinway which the technician swore had still never had any parts replaced. It was less responsive and duller sounding, but was still an amazing instrument, and quickly became my favourite at the conservatoire!

[iumonito]

Different people may disagree, but that sounds like an overly aggressive schedule to me.  I would as much as double that for the hammers and another half for the strings.

Plus, what's being discussed here is actually the action wear.  I would think a properly maintained action should last 50 years at least.

Maybe I don't practice as much as I should. 

I agree of course a home piano (depending on who uses it) may last longer.

[daniloperusina]

Not when it's critical that the piano is at it's greatest. Hammer felt gets compacted where they hit the strings, you file them down, and keep repeating this procedure. After a while there's too little felt left, so you have to replace them.
A concert grand, at venues like Carnegie Hall, are usually retired altogether after ten years. The soundboard is usually considered as being past it's best by then. This is also due to the extra pressure caused by the sheer size of everyhing in these 3 meter-monsters.

[iumonito]

I am not a concert pianist, nor a tech, but keeping a piano at its critical greatest actually requires way more attention than what you are describing, but only in the maintenance and prep side, not in the reconstruction side.  That's why the likes of Zymmerman and Horowitz and now Louis Lortie play their own instruments.

If you file down the hammers, you alter, however minutely, the weight of the hammer and the strike distance to the string, which affects particularly the touch weight/strike ratio relationship from one key to the next.  I would not consider hammer filing an appropriate treatment for a concert instrument,  I know it is done, but it is lame.  For a home instrument, of course, it is not practical to replace the hammers every 3 years (after the one year when the hammers are optimal after enough play and voicing has season them over the first two years).  There filing is a necessity and action regulation has to compensate for the variations in hammer weight and size.

And on the question of soundboards, don't get me started.  I know it is a widespread belief among people with interest in the machine aspects of the piano that there is a fundamental difference between how the belly of a violin and the soundboard of a piano age.  I am curious.  I wonder whether the problem is not so much downbearing, but rather bridge and rib maintenance and voicing, which is an under-developed aspect of the craft at large.  Where are Keith Kerman and Ron Overs when you need them? Keith?  (I suspect we are not in full agreement on this one, so maybe I need some education).

If you are throwing out the soundboard of an old classic piano, I would be glad to explore paying for the shipping costs.  Wood like that is not that common, you know?

[daniloperusina]

There's a wonderful new book, "Piano - The Making Of A Steinway Concert Grand" by James Barron. He follows the construction and preparations of one particular piano, from visiting stocks of Spruce in Canada, to the instrument being installed and played on in various concert halls. It also includes interviews with Henry Z Steinway, Michael Mohr and others. Perhaps someone here has even played on that instrument? It's at the Metropoilitan Museum of Art.

Anyway, it gives particular insights into the requirements of the finest concert instruments. And it's not a question of having the money to pay for a new concert grand every ten years, Steinway loans the instruments to them.

[daniloperusina]

And Horowitz apparently had Franz Mohr regularly installing new hammers, which he immediately had to file down a lot to meet H's requirement of a particularly light touch. Which also meant that they didn't last very long.

[iumonito]

That's different though.  Horowitz hammers would be modified from what is on the shelves to meet a particular design image (even if it was Mohr's modification design to meet Horowitz's artistic image, just like the likes of Keith Kerman, Ron Overs and Del Fandrich do when they modify pianos' original design).

It would be very interesting to get from Mohr not so much the current state of that piano, runied as it was after Steinway got it back and modified it back close to standard design, but rather how Mohr kept it for Volodya.

We are beside the point fo the thread, though.  Apologies to the proud owner of a fine piano, hoping your rebuild experience turns to the best.

[gerry]

Thanks again for all the ongoing information. It's been a real education. It's been interesting adjusting to the remarkable changes in sound, action, etc. as a result and I look forward to the adjustments that will be made over time to make it even better.