Identifying Intervals Aurally

[DenverSop]

Hi!

I teach sightreading/ear training to high school students. In college, I learned to identify intervals by comparing what I heard to songs that I knew. For example, if I heard a P4, I recognized "Here Comes the Bride" and therefore knew it was a P4.

Problem is, I'm finding that my list of songs is becoming rather dated. Many of the students don't know all of the songs that I use to identify intervals.

So, I'm coming to you! What songs did/do you use for identifying ascending & descending intervals??

Thanks in advance!!!!

[Chopins_Fantaisie]

Just the other day I was working on ear training with one of my students. She had to identify whether an interval was a P4, P5, or M6. I guess I haven't really anything to suggest on what songs used to identify the intervals, but "Here Comes the Bride" was used for the 4th, "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star" for the 5th, and "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" for a 6th. (You probably know that, though ) I am curious though - do you have a full list for identifying the intervals, Denver? I'd be interested in seeing it.  

[DenverSop]

I guess I can't call it a FULL list, but here's what I've been working with....

m2 up: Jaws
m2 down: Fur Elise

M2 up: Happy Birthday or Do, a Deer
M2 down: Three Blind Mice or Mary had a little lamb

m3 up: Lullaby, or Somewhere Out There
m3 down: Star-Spangled Banner or Walking on Broken Glass

M3 up: From the Halls of Montezuma or When the Saints Go Marching In
M3 down: Good Night Ladies or Swing Low Sweet Chariot or Beethoven's 5th

P4 up: Here Comes The Bride
P4 down: Eine Kleine Nachtmusik

TT up: Maria or Simpson Themesong
TT down: ?? I hear various parts of Mendelssohn's Elijah, but NONE of my students know that piece!

P5 up: Twinkle Twinkle or Space Odyssey
P5 down: Feelings or Rock Around the Clock

m6 up: Entertainer or Close Every Door (from Joseph & Amazing Tech. Dreamcoat)
m6 down: Love Story

M6 up: My Bonnie or NBC jingle
M6 down: Nobody knows the trouble I've seen

m7 up: There's A Place For Us
m7 down: ?

M7 up: Bali Hai - This one's a stretch because you have to sing through the octave to find the 7th, but it's the best I could come up with. And still, most of my students don't know it.
M7 down:

P8 up: Somewhere over the rainbow
P8 down: ?

[squinchy]

That list is cool! I never really noticed the intervals before.

The only reference I use is the wedding march-It's P4 and P5 for idiots, according to my friend. [Here->comes=P4, All->dressed=P5]

What does TT mean?

[bernhard]

That list is cool! I never really noticed the intervals before.

The only reference I use is the wedding march-It's P4 and P5 for idiots, according to my friend. [Here->comes=P4, All->dressed=P5]

What does TT mean?

TT: TriTone (augmented fourth/diminished fifth)

Yes, cool list! Thanks.

[rlefebvr]

O.K. I know this is the Teachers section, but someone please tell me what the heck you guys are talking about.

"Identifying Intervals Aurally"

What are Intervals anyway. I have no idea what that means.

[bernhard]

O.K. I know this is the Teachers section, but someone please tell me what the heck you guys are talking about.

"Identifying Intervals Aurally"

What are Intervals anyway. I have no idea what that means.

To identify an interval aurally means to identify an interval by ear. That is, you hear the interval and you tell just by listening to it which kind it is.

What are intervals? Oh boy, you opened a can or worms!

I will be very brief (promise!)

1.      Intervals are the foundation of all music.

2.      An interval is the distance between two notes. For instance the distance from C to D is smaller than the distance from C to E.

3.      Intervals are classified according to their “size”. So the interval from C to D is called a second, since there are only two notes involved. The interval from C to E is called a third because there are three notes involved (C, D, E). And so on and so forth.

4.      C to D is a second, and so is E to F. Yet the distance form C to D is clearly bigger than the distance from E to F. (there is no black key between E and F). Threfore from C to D we have a major second (2 semitones), and from E to F (1 semitone) a minor second. Likewise from C to E we have a major third (4 semitones) and from E to G a minor third (3 semitones). There is only one kind of forth, so it is called a “perfect fourth” (C to F – 5 semitones). Likewise there is only one kind of fifth: the perfect fifth (C to G – 6 semitones). Or so we would like it to be. However the six semitone interval (B to F) does exists and it is not a fifth and it is not a fourth, it is a tritone – and in medieval times was considered the most horrible sound: the Devil’s interval. As such it was forbidden by the Church. Nowadays the tritone is called either an augmented fourth or a diminished fifth depending on context. Then you have major sixths (C – A – 9 semitones) and minor sixths (E to C – 8semitones), major sevenths (C to B – 11 semitones) and minor sevenths (D to C - 10 semitones) and finally octaves (12 semitones). You can also have unisons (0 semitones) where the same note is played together (e.g. two pianos playing middle C). This is just a simplified overview and deals only with one octave, so that you get the idea.

5.      Ultimately, all this talk of distances and keys has really no relationship to sound. In terms of sound, what we hear is the ratio between two frequencies. This has some far reaching and unexpected ramifications (like for instance the question of tuning and equal temperament).

6.      Chords can be thought as simultaneous intervals (e.g. a major triad is a major third with a minor third on top, while a minor triad is a minor third with a major third on top). In fact if the two notes of an interval are played together, we call this a “harmonic” interval, and if the notes succeed one another it is called a “melodic” interval.

7.      Intervals being the most basic building blocks of music will define its language at its most basic level: some intervals are dissonant and disagreeable, some are consonant and agreeable. Hence the use of intervals to create tension and resolution in music. Musical context may dramatically change the meaning of an interval though.

This is just the tip of an immense iceberg.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[comme_le_vent]

yeah, but intervals arent the foundation of ALL music.
music for unpitched percussion isnt, and african polyrhythmic drumming isnt.
just had to point out this mistake to make myself feel better.

[DenverSop]

Just to be ornery...

Dr. James McKinney states in his book "The diagnosis and correction of vocal faults"  

   "A musical tone is one in which the sound wave pattern repeats itself regularly; a noise is a sound which does not have a recognizable pattern because of its irregularity and lack of order."

So, by his definition, drumming would be considered "noise," not "music."

Again, just being ornery.  

[bernhard]

Guys, you are not reading carefully.

The unissson is an interval. Drumming is a succession of melodic unissons.

Anyway, if you do not believe that intervals are the foundation of all music, show me an example of music without intervals (interval being a distance between two sounds).

Even 4:33 does not qualify (if you read Cage's own comments you will see that he composed it to show the impossibility of composing it).

Are we still in this topic's subject?

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[allchopin]

As far as political correctness goes (and we know we are ALL about that here at the forums), would you call any two harmonic notes in music an interval, rather than a chord?  Usually, a chord consists of three or more notes, but everyone knows what you are talking about.  *reminisces on 'piece vs song'

[bernhard]

As far as political correctness goes (and we know we are ALL about that here at the forums), would you call any two harmonic notes in music an interval, rather than a chord?  Usually, a chord consists of three or more notes, but everyone knows what you are talking about.  *reminisces on 'piece vs song'

An interval is defined as the distance (or the frequency ratio) between two pitches. If the two notes are played together, we call it a “harmonic”interval. If palyed in succession they are called “melodic intervals”

Intervals have been around since the start of polyphonic music, so their nomenclature and theory is pretty much ironclad.

Intervals are very important in counterpoint and all the theory of counterpoint is based on them.

Chords on the other hand are defined as any number of notes played together. So two notes played together are a chord (and also a harmonic interval). However three notes played together are a chord, but no more an interval. In fact if you play a major triad – CEG for instance – this chord contains three distinct intervals: a major third (CE) a minor third (EG) and a perfect fifth (CG). Tradition however ignores the perfect fifth and say instead that a major triad is composed of two thirds.

Chords are far more recent than intervals and start being used as Harmony replaced counterpoint in the 18th century. Slowly Chord theory replaced interval theory as the basis of music (although they are interrelated). The problem is that chord theory is in no way as universally accepted or ironclad as interval theory. In particular chord naming is a real jungle, partly because pop and jazz musicians being (at least when these musical trends first appeared) largely ignorant of music theory invented their own names for chord (e.g. calling an inverted A minor triad a C6 chord – which has now become accepted usage).

A four note chord (Eg C7: CEGBb) will still consist of intervals, this time the major third (CE), the minor third (EG) and the minor seventh (CBb). It is on account of this last interval that we call CEGBb a seventh chord. Could we have said that CEGBb consists of a major third (CE) a minor third (EG), and another minor third (GBb). Yes, we could. But that is not what people do, so what we have here is a tradition that is now in universal use and therefore one may as well get used to it and learn it.

Although by now triads (major and minor), diminished chords, sevenths, major and minor sevenths, diminished sevenths, suspended chords and sixths are pretty much universal, there is a plethora of chords out there that have no universally accepted names or universally accepted way of naming them. So fake books can be a nightmare until you discover which of the many system around the author of the fake book is using.

Does that make it clearer: intervals - any two notes played together or separately form an interval. Chords - Any number of notes played together form a chord. A chord can be broken down in its component intervals.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[rlefebvr]

Your knowledge of music scares the HE^& out of me, Bernard.
Makes very interested reading. I would say 90 percent of my notes since I have started to keep a journal is from your rants( )

Makes sense to me and I thank you for resonding, although I am at a lost as to what an m2 or m3 is and what they have to do with the songs quoted. I suspect you use these to explain the different type of intervals.

[bernhard]

m2 - minor second - the distance between two adjacet keys (= one semitone) for instance, between E and F or between C anc C#. Now how con you recognise this "by ear"? One way is to associate it with a piece of well known music.

In this case, the suggestion given was Fur Elise. Now if you hear in your mind the first two notes of Fur Elise, you have a descending minor third (E-D#).

So that was what that (very good) list was all about: A way to remember what each interval sounds like by thinking of the first two notes of well known tunes (m- minor, M- major - P - perfect and TT - Tritone). Now get a book on harmony and learn about the intervals. You will be glad you did!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

In this case, the suggestion given was Fur Elise. Now if you hear in your mind the first two notes of Fur Elise, you have a descending minor third (E-D#).

Sorry, I mean minor second.

[OlderGuy]

For major intervals, I think you can simply sing (mentally) a (major) scale to yourself to match the second note (do-re-mi-fa....)
For the minor intervals this is harder.
  Peter

[Lee]

Your knowledge of music scares the HE^& out of me, Bernard.
quote]


People's LACK of knowledge scares the whatnots out of me - This stuff is like grade 5 theory!  Why is it that you can play the piano, but you don't know something as simple as intervals and chords.  Hey, I'm not trying to put you down, seriously, I'm, just curious.  I've been reading a lot of comments about some amazing pieces being played, but then there's this huge VOID when it comes to theory.

I guess I should have put this is the students part.  But it's also a question for teachers.  WHAT are you teaching if its not how music works?  I'd shreik like a little girl if my teacher DIDNT know this stuff!  

[Lee]

In particular chord naming is a real jungle, partly because pop and jazz musicians being (at least when these musical trends first appeared) largely ignorant of music theory invented their own names for chord (e.g. calling an inverted A minor triad a C6 chord – which has now become accepted usage).

C6 is not an inverted A minor chord.  The bass note would still require a C, and the chord consists of C E G and A.   'A' being the 6th degree, therefore C6.   Play it without the G and it's Am, 1st inversion.   To get the 'feel' within a jazz piece, - dissonance, you need to play the G and A.   There's no G in an inverted Am chord.

[Lee]

yeah, but intervals arent the foundation of ALL music.
music for unpitched percussion isnt, and african polyrhythmic drumming isnt.
just had to point out this mistake to make myself feel better.

You know even your local drummer TUNES his drum set.  
Even if using one drum you can make the timbre higher or lower depending on the tension of the skin.

[rlefebvr]

Your knowledge of music scares the HE^& out of me, Bernard.
quote]


People's LACK of knowledge scares the whatnots out of me - This stuff is like grade 5 theory!  Why is it that you can play the piano, but you don't know something as simple as intervals and chords.  

No insult, I have been asking myself the same question for a couple of months now.
Trouble with a lot of teachers is they never teach you music, just to play the notes. 2 years of guitar, 2 years of piano under 5 teachers and not one has ever taught me chords. Luckily, my new teacher is different. First course and we start with the principal of chords and their relation to scales and how scales are actually made up.( also something no one has ever bothered to teach me, although I never cared enough to ask before.

Of course I know what a Chord is and the basic of a triad, but why is it made up that way. So important to know why you are doing something..
The basic of Intervals I knew, but I did not know such a thing had a name to it or that it could actually be taught.

As far as grade 5 theory, I don't consider myself a grade five, but more of a grade 3 or 4 depending on the piece, although I truly believe this stuff should be taught as soon as the student can read his notes and that should be inside of first 3 months.

Too many teachers leave the music out of the music class and all you end up with is people who can read sheetmusic, but can't hear or understand the music they are playing, something I have been complaining about since I have started playing music. I am on my way of rectifying that hopefully now.

[DenverSop]

For teaching theory to my students, I use the John Thompson Notespeller, Scalespeller and Chordspeller.   I supplement with my own exercises and exercises I print from www.practicespot.com.    

These might be useful resources for someone who wants to develop this knowledge more on one's own.

[bernhard]

C6 is not an inverted A minor chord.  The bass note would still require a C, and the chord consists of C E G and A.   'A' being the 6th degree, therefore C6.   Play it without the G and it's Am, 1st inversion.   To get the 'feel' within a jazz piece, - dissonance, you need to play the G and A.   There's no G in an inverted Am chord.

You are right.

What I meant to say what that the C6 chord is an inverted A minor seventh chord.

Anyway, I was just pointing out that interval classification and nomenclature is far more standardized and universally accepted than chord classification and nomenclature.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Bob]

Speaking of hearing intervals aurally...

Does the m7 from "There's a Place for Us," a V7 really sound the same as an m7 built on another scale degree, such as 1 - b7?

In other words, doesn't the position of the interval in relation to the tonic "color" the sound too?

I've heard the intervals-of-a-song criticized for throwing your ears off because it includes the function of those notes in that song.  For example, I see a C to a Bb on the page.  If I start thinking of "There's a Place.." then wouldn't I be hearing a V7?  (F Major).  It's possible that the piece could have a im7 chord which would be a huge difference in aural color.  These are arguments for learning solfege I've heard.


Any thoughts?

[DenverSop]

Hi Bob,

Well, I don't have any evidence to either side, but I can definitely say that learning to identify intervals aurally was a breeze as soon as I paired them with songs.  If I wasn't allowed to use the songs, I don't know how I'd do it.    And when it comes to a m7, I just haven't found any other song that starts that way.   Something is better than nothing, I think.  BUT, if you can think of other songs for the 7ths - both major and minor, up and down, BY ALL MEANS, share the wealth!  Those are the hardest ones for my students to grasp because they can't put songs with them as easily.

Ellie

[joeltr888]

I don't mean to spoil anyone's fun, but I have to warn against the use of popular song melodies as a means of interval id. The primary reason for learning to hear intervals is so that one can more effectively dictate melodies or pick up music by ear. Relating each interval to a song not only introduces unnecessary steps in the hearing process, it divorces your ear from the tonality of a given line. A simple example:

Say you think "here comes the bride" every time you try and identify a P4. We hear the first two notes of that melody as being scale degree 5 going to 8. That's all well and good, but say you're trying to dictate any other melody with a P4 in it, only the melody is 2^ to 5^. Assuming that you can instantaneously recognize the P4 using "here comes the bride" (which is impossible) you'd be off to good a start. The problem is that you've subconsciously heard 5^ to 8^, not 2^ to 5^. If the melody then proceeded down to 4^, your ear would be thoroughly confused because you were expecting 7^ (a half step below) not 4^ (whole step below). Of course if your ear were well-trained in the song method, you might be able to twice break your ear from the tonal relationship and hear the descending major second as another song, but as I mentioned before you're just adding more pointless steps.

In simpler terms, only use the song method as a means for first hearing the interval, and even then only in moderation. The ultimate goal is to pre-hear every interval around a given note instantaneously... and well... nobody ever said relative pitch was easy.

[CW]

I have tried to use songs as a learning tool, but find that in the end it just takes too long for a student to go through the list of songs in their head and pick out the right one.
In light of this, I prefer to teach interval recognition through singing.  For example, I get students to sing through the scale notes to determine intervals and this has worked much faster than the song method.
I have found that a student's ability to sing scales etc has also had positive implications for other areas of aural testing etc.