Religion

[wotgoplunk]

Your opinion doesn't count as proof to me. I will maintain an Agnostic position on it until you can prove to me beyond reasonable doubt that you actually did see 1/3 of the stars disappear.

You know, constellations occasionally move out of sight because of the Earth's tilt, plus the rotation.

And occasionally they are obscured by clouds

[prometheus]

if the universe is expanding -why are the constellations exactly as they were thousands of years ago.

Because stars aren't dots on the firmament of heaven just 10 kilometer into the sky.

What we see is exactly as predicted.

[ahinton]

wotogoplunk, do you ever look up at the sky?  i have.  i don't need a scientist to tell me what i see.

But Susan, have you thought that you may need an optician to identify what you don't see? And what about other factors that may obscure your view of "the stars", such as light and other pollution, cloud formations, the tilt of the earth at any given moment, etc.? About a year ago I went out at around midnight during a full moon and looked up at a cloudless sky in a part of the Charente in France where light pollution is almost non-existent; I admit to not being an habitual stargazer but I must also say that I have never before or since observed so many stars so clearly at any one viewing and, naturally, as my eyes become increasingly accustomed to what I did see, I became aware of being able to see more and more of them. It was a truly extraordinary sight and in no sense suggestive of mass stellar disappearance of the kind of which you write (without any scentific corroboration).

Best,

Alistair

[jlh]

You do know that the closest star is 41.5 trillion km away? So think how long it takes light to reach us. Even the sun we see as it was 8 million years ago.

Well, actually the sun is 93,000,000 miles away.
Light travels at 186,000 miles/sec, so we see the sun as it was about 8.333 minutes ago, not 8 million years ago... 

[maul]

rofl. wotgoplunk's credibility is now officially nonexistent.

[prometheus]

To see a star as it was 8 million years ago it needs to be 8 million light years away.

Pretty easy calculation.


He must have made a mind lapse error.

[wotgoplunk]

Well, actually the sun is 93,000,000 miles away.
Light travels at 186,000 miles/sec, so we see the sun as it was about 8.333 minutes ago, not 8 million years ago... 

Lol 

I don't make typos much, but when I do they're bad : P

Alpha Centauri I was meaning, I forgot about our sun (Which was extremely stupid of me). And the other bit was a typo.

[jlh]

Lol 

I don't make typos much, but when I do they're bad : P

Alpha Centauri I was meaning, I forgot about our sun (Which was extremely stupid of me). And the other bit was a typo.

HAHA yeah I know it was a typo!  Still though, we had how many responses before someone saw how off you were? 

If you're gonna make a typo, best make it a bad one! lol

 

[ahinton]

I do not in any sense seek to usurp the vital rτle of our goodly Nils here, but I cannot help but speculate on the possibilties that might arise from the merging of this thread with the one about the Games Women Play; our resident femme religieuse Susan is clearly a noted contributor to both and so may be the one best placed to appreciate the analogical relationship between on the one hand Religion and Games Women Play and on the other hand pole dancing and Bible reading...

Best,

Alistair

[soliloquy]

Ridiculous thread.


By the way, while not reading this crap in its entirety, of all the posts that actually had anything at all to do with the original topic, I did not see a single one in opposition of making a seperate board for religion.  So the question must be asked, why does Nils care so little?

[mike_lang]

Ridiculous thread.


By the way, while not reading this crap in its entirety, of all the posts that actually had anything at all to do with the original topic, I did not see a single one in opposition of making a separate board for religion.  So the question must be asked, why does Nils care so little?

Because this is the religion board... :-)

[pianistimo]

peace bruthus.  don't bring pole dancing into this again, alistair.  must i remind you that i neither have a pole nor know how to use one properly as my husband first alluded to the fact that he fantasized about one - and then would not let me take a step out the door to find a pole-dance teacher.  therefore - i must resort - if i wanted to know - to a book.  which in my estimation is like learning piano from a book.  how much help is that?  i would say the pole-dancing idea is quite stagnant right now.  also, the only pole in the house is covered with paint and vents radon from the basement. 

anyways - to lighten the mood here - i must ask soliloquy why - if he doesn't find religion interesting - that he posts requesting the topic of religion to variously either be moved, eliminated, or otherwise hopelessly vacated to some unobtuse area of piano forum.  i think the most unobtuse was actually in the place that it was.  by 'bumping' the thread - i see that we have more than one hip jerk reactionist.

btw, the most hip jerking thing i have ever done is open the front door with a side bump. 

i almost forgot - cloud cover is indeed a problem with star gazing - but also, light pollution, as alistair mentioned.  now - the inspired Word of God might not have been understood completely by it's writers back in the time - as they had no pollution to explain.  but, it certainly could explain nowdays why 1/3 of the stars would not shine their light and why the moon and sun would be dark at Jesus return.  also, i found out today from my hubby that russia has devised a 'vaccum bomb' and bomb stuffs could easily cover the sun or moon.  although, God himself could simply make them dark at His will.

as i see it - the main differences we have here are faith vs. science.  but, i do not feel they are at odds.  natural science is simply the design of God.

[mike_lang]

some unobtuse area of piano forum.  i think the most unobtuse was actually in the place that it was. 

Alistair!  Do something about this...

[wotgoplunk]

I do not in any sense seek to usurp the vital rτle of our goodly Nils here, but I cannot help but speculate on the possibilties that might arise from the merging of this thread with the one about the Games Women Play; our resident femme religieuse Susan is clearly a noted contributor to both and so may be the one best placed to appreciate the analogical relationship between on the one hand Religion and Games Women Play and on the other hand pole dancing and Bible reading...

Best,

Alistair

Have you ever heard of the concept of Christian porn? It's quite the rage apparently. Have a google.

[wotgoplunk]

as i see it - the main differences we have here are faith vs. science.  but, i do not feel they are at odds.  natural science is simply the design of God.

Do you deny mitosis?

[pianistimo]

mitosis is impossible for science to replicate - but it can explain it.  the cells divide, yes.  but how?  this is not just a simple question.  what causes the very FIRST cell to divide.  that little instruction book it has.  but, what activates the instructions?  God, imo.

proof of creation is also not just in the largest things in the universe - but the smallest living and non-living things and their organization and detail.  the mandelbrot set continues infinitely either way.

[wotgoplunk]

Would you really like the long scientific explanation, or would it be pointless for me to bother?

[mike_lang]

mitosis is impossible for science to replicate - but it can explain it.  the cells divide, yes.  but how?  this is not just a simple question.  what causes the very FIRST cell to divide.  that little instruction book it has.  but, what activates the instructions?  God, imo.

I.e., Who (or what, if you prefer) is the Prime Mover?  Who is the First Principle, the Efficient Cause, the Cause without Cause?

[pianistimo]

if you've ever felt a life in your belly - you wouldn't bother - because you know that sperm and egg grows into a living being far before it is born.  that is what 'quickening' is.  showing that a 'living being' is alive.  how this truly happens is a mystery and no science will ever explain it with 1300000000000 pages of drivel.

until it can be replicated - it is an unknown force - and as Michael pointed out a 'moving' force.  giving life by His Spirit.  it 'moved' upon the surface of the waters in genesis.

btw, i am still listening though because i never fully understood science to the depth others seem to take it.  i just find it sort of funny that other scientists really doubt a bunch of things stephen hawking says because he can't prove his theories.  therefore - they stay theories.  also, i find the name 'pontifical academy of science' quite revolting.  this is because nobody can pontificate science, can they?  there is always more to be learned.  nobody can 'play God.'  stephen went to this school of science and apparently became more interested in the pontificating.  thus, his absolute refusal to hear anything that would place science in the hands of faith.  i wish he would hold out a more truthful figure of optomism to scientists by merely saying 'we don't know everything' - and stop at the point where he literally can go no further.  instead - he lies beyond that point.  that makes some of his books more like harry potter to me.

[wotgoplunk]

Well anyway, brief scientific explanation as to what causes mitosis: Basically there is a chemical, that when active will begin mitosis. This chemical acts somewhat like a clock. Once it has had sufficient growth time, it "asks" the clock whether mitosis should begin. Clock says yes, chromatin duplicates, more chemicals are produced to stimulate the centrioles, actin and myocin begin to be produced, and mitosis starts. Clock says no, time goes by and it "asks" again.

Technically the tiniest of cells are living. However they are not conscious.

They have done mitosis in prokaryotic organisms, and it can clearly be observed.

Are you talking about M-Theory in your latest post?

[pianistimo]

nobody has done mitosis!  it happens on it's own.  this is rubbish.

do you know how i know.  because there is only ONE GOD.  you cannot create life if you kill yourself and put yourself back together and defibrilate yourself.

not even frankenstinian prokaryotics are possible yet.  unless you are speaking of computer viruses and worms.  but, they are not technically alive.

merely messing with what God has already made - this mitosis with prokaryotics.

and about stephen hawking.  i don't doubt he is very smart - but he's also very dumb at the same time because he doesn't admit what he doesn't know.  instead - he pontificates.  even other scientists are disturbed by this.

[wotgoplunk]

They can grow stem cells, so obviously they can induce mitosis!

Yes, but polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons can 

[pianistimo]

gas is gas.

[wotgoplunk]

gas is gas.

Actually, they're usually liquids or solids

Please research before bashing.

[prometheus]

Pianistimo, stf u about science.

And don't lie.

[ahinton]

peace bruthus.  don't bring pole dancing into this again, alistair.  must i remind you that i neither have a pole nor know how to use one properly as my husband first alluded to the fact that he fantasized about one - and then would not let me take a step out the door to find a pole-dance teacher.  therefore - i must resort - if i wanted to know - to a book.

Oh, come on, now, Susan - it's always good for a wind-up, as your entire paragraph has demonstrated to perfection - and we know the kind of book to which you usually resort, since you mention it so often.

i would say the pole-dancing idea is quite stagnant right now.

I admit that stagnant pole-dancing must be somehwat - er - oxymoronic...

also, the only pole in the house is covered with paint and vents radon from the basement.

Well, in that case, I'd certainly counsel you not to wrap your body lasciviously around it, for health and safety reasons. I did not know that you were in a high radon area; we also have one in UK, in Cornwall (not far from those Isles of Scilly).

anyways - to lighten the mood here - i must ask soliloquy why - if he doesn't find religion interesting - that he posts requesting the topic of religion to variously either be moved, eliminated, or otherwise hopelessly vacated to some unobtuse area of piano forum.  i think the most unobtuse was actually in the place that it was.  by 'bumping' the thread - i see that we have more than one hip jerk reactionist.

That's "lightening the mood here", is it? You could have fooled me...

btw, the most hip jerking thing i have ever done is open the front door with a side bump. 

Maybe that's because you acquired your pole-dancing techniques from a book (no, not THAT book)...

i almost forgot - cloud cover is indeed a problem with star gazing - but also, light pollution, as alistair mentioned.  now - the inspired Word of God might not have been understood completely by it's writers back in the time - as they had no pollution to explain.  but, it certainly could explain nowdays why 1/3 of the stars would not shine their light and why the moon and sun would be dark at Jesus return.  also, i found out today from my hubby that russia has devised a 'vaccum bomb' and bomb stuffs could easily cover the sun or moon.  although, God himself could simply make them dark at His will.

(...yawn...)

as i see it - the main differences we have here are faith vs. science.  but, i do not feel they are at odds.  natural science is simply the design of God.

I'm by no means sure about the last bit here, but I do agree with you that the notion of pitching faith in opposition to science as though the two things ae mutually exclusive is a potentially dangerous and almost always unhelpful one.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Alistair!  Do something about this...

[mike_lang]

Speechless?

[ahinton]

if you've ever felt a life in your belly

A large number of us haven't, Susan - for very simple and basic biological reasons...

- you wouldn't bother - because you know that sperm and egg grows into a living being far before it is born.  that is what 'quickening' is.  showing that a 'living being' is alive.  how this truly happens is a mystery and no science will ever explain it with 1300000000000 pages of drivel.

It is not a mystery at all, especially nowadays. I won't reiterate any of the arguments about the extent to which an unborn baby is a "living and sentient being" at any given time during its mother-to-be's pregnancy, as this has been amply aired in the abortion thread already; what I will do, however, is wonder whether "1300000000000 pages of drivel" is something with which you might be especially familiar...

until it can be replicated - it is an unknown force - and as Michael pointed out a 'moving' force.  giving life by His Spirit.  it 'moved' upon the surface of the waters in genesis.

Sorry; what are you talking about now?

btw, i am still listening though because i never fully understood science to the depth others seem to take it.

We'd noticed - so do keep listening...

  i just find it sort of funny that other scientists really doubt a bunch of things stephen hawking says because he can't prove his theories.  therefore - they stay theories.  also, i find the name 'pontifical academy of science' quite revolting.  this is because nobody can pontificate science, can they?  there is always more to be learned.

Of course gthere is; this is why things thought to be facts at one time might sometimes get disproved by better science later.

nobody can 'play God.'

Including God Himself, perhaps...

stephen went to this school of science and apparently became more interested in the pontificating.  thus, his absolute refusal to hear anything that would place science in the hands of faith.  i wish he would hold out a more truthful figure of optomism to scientists by merely saying 'we don't know everything' - and stop at the point where he literally can go no further.  instead - he lies beyond that point.  that makes some of his books more like harry potter to me.

Stephen Hawking's work analogous to that of J K Rowling; hmmm... Any scientist worthy of the name is what you might call a doubting Thomas, which in truth is indicative not of any kind of undermining spirit but of a permanently enquiring mind.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Speechless?

No. What I had written there was "What CAN I do about it?!" but, for some unaccountable reason, it did not upload correctly. Anyway, now you know!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

gas is gas.

If by that you mean that hot air is hot air, I'll go along with you there...

Best,

Alistair

[mike_lang]

If by that you mean that hot air is hot air, I'll go along with you there...

Best,

Alistair

Bien dit, Alexandre.

[ahinton]

Bien dit, Alexandre.

Merci, Michel - although I now realise that, when stating that I would "go along" with this, I did not of course mean that I would take this to the lengths of going along with Susan in a hot air balloon (and, in any case, pole-dancing in an airborne hot-air balloon would almost certainly be far more dangerous even than doing it around a pole that "is covered with paint and vents radon from the basement")...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

i am quite interested in archeology and the bible and it's a toss up between that and piano. 

You are only interested in archeology that you claim prooves the Bible, as previous posts of yours have demonstrated.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

michael - you have a lot of patience already. 

He certainly has.

I am afraid that he might end up as your next victim. Driven insane with trying to budge an unmovable object and end up as a gibbering wreck in a nut house.

This is what happens to most people that enter into a "debate" with you.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

no science will ever explain it with 1300000000000 pages of drivel.

Well, you have come close to that figure.

[pianistimo]

if i am such a 'nutcase' - how come noone has disproven what i have said.  all i was saying is that the term 'pope' - as referring to the early church - wasn't even used!  the term bishop and elder maybe.

did you know that the term was actually given to 'pope's = 'vicarius filii dei' or (in the place of the Son of God) wayyy after that time.  the title was first bestowed upon the pope in the eighth century as a sort of expression of 'vicar of Christ' by the roman system.  it was a donation of Constantine (although proven to be a forged document by Otto III).  here's what happened - the document was supposed to help pope Sylvester I gain a sort of emperorship as well as spiritual leadership to Rome, Italy AND the western roman empire.  the Eastern empire would still be constantines and thus ruled from 'constantinople.'

dante alighieri in his 'divine comedy' sought to expose things as they were and also mentions this forged document.  it was to help the 'pope' gain POWER.  it's all about power, baby.

did you know revelations mentions that the beast power will be ruled by a false prophet and that the 'number of his name' is the very same 666 that people joke about.  well, add up the latin numbers to the terms 'vicarius filii dei' and what do you get?  hmmm.  just odd - i'd say.

conspiracy theory?  well, to find out if something is true sometimes takes many years.  things that have been hidden or secret always come to light, though.  as i see it - people tend to joke and laugh about what they are unable to comprehend.  we can't see spirit - but we see it working around us.  what causes history to go a certain way.  why were the true christians driven underground?  persecuted and finally let out of prison by constantine  (the ones who survived persecution) as the vaudois or waldenses and fled to the alps?  they were variously persecuted in the name of Jesus Christ whilst others who accepted the roman system which was both pagan and christian combined thrived. 

whose bones are under st. peter's basilica.  if they are undoubtedly peter's - then we should have no qualms about doing dna tests to see whose they are.  this was only allowed once in the history and no real results could be given as it was before the type of testing we have today.  were the bones of peter actually the bones of simon magus peter?  whilst peter was imprisoned - did another peter take over the reigns of the church?  why would peter's bones stay in rome if jewish persons were always buried in jewish burial blots (thus the return of his bones to jerusalem).

[prometheus]

Because no one cares.

[G.W.K]

Because no one cares.

Hear hear!

G.W.K

[pianistimo]

you won't care until it happens again.  then you will care (esp if you are christian). 

https://dante.ilt.columbia.edu/books/polit_vis/pvc2.html

when religion and politics and policies unite (and jurisdictions become confused - such as with jerusalem) it makes for a very interesting andelluvian type return to what was ages before.  noone would believe it could happen because they don't realize the power that religions have in the world.  controlling masses of people.  that is why hitler was interested to make deals with a certain pope.

why is the current pope the only religious leader to influence the UN?  why is he allowed to address the UN?  what gives him this power?  the ability to influence a lot of people.

the bible warns that we are not to accept the mark of the beast - nor the number of his name.  now if the number represents a name - and that name is acting as the 'vicar of Christ' or stand in - he is not representing peter but Christ himself!  and alternately 'the Father.' 

[G.W.K]

you won't care until it happens again.  then you will care (esp if you are christian). 

That won't affect me then.

G.W.K

[pianistimo]

not until God starts effecting a true 'one world order' according to a different system.  not based on roman law or roman systems that mimic empirical rome.  this is variously called in the bible - the milenium or thousand year reign of Christ over this earth.  that he will be - as handel says 'King, Counsellor, the Mighty God, Prince of Peace....'

[G.W.K]

You never give up do you? I'm an atheist! I (personally) don't believe in God.

G.W.K

[pianistimo]

as an american - i was first interested as a child about freedom.  the wild west.  things like that.  i read a lot about the early pioneers.  i wondered why they were so driven to do what they did.  then, i heard about 'manifest destiny' and how abrahams children were given blessings and promise in exchange for spreading the gospel to the entire world as a witness.  now, we can see that happened.  also, that the blessings are taken away in our age for disobedience to the law and prophets. 

so - we have this dillemma of science vs religion (i don't think they are at odds).  we have some saying - this one world order will be a good thing.  btw, i think stephen hawking has convinced a lot of people not to take the bible seriously as miracles cannot be explained.  to make christians look like fools.  but if we are fools for Christ - then they will be the fools at the return of Jesus Christ.  they will have lost their inheritance.

the age in which we live is very deciding.  we know for a fact that NAFTA is allowing this world order to exist simultaneously with a 'pretend -defend the border.'  our borders are open to NAFTA throughout the entire north and south americas.  it's part of 'the deal.'  is the deal talked about?  no.  because not everyone would agree.  only certain people agree and the agenda is slowly implemented without many people's knowledge.

either you are FOR a one world order or you are against.  if you enlarge europe by buying the 'mark' or euro - you are working towards a system that will ultimately rule the world temporarily.

[thalbergmad]

if i am such a 'nutcase' - how come noone has disproven what i have said. 

As Prometheus says. "nobody cares".

Eventually, nobody will be bothered to debate with you as you are totally blinkered and inflexible.

I was driven mad in the past by debating with you and can no longer be bothered. Prometheus has given up, Marik was driven almost to suicide and now Michael Langois is probably already receiving counselling. This is your method though, you baffle people with senseless crap and then claim victory when they give up.

Your latest posts demonstrate that you have reached a new level of drivel that has actually exceeded what you have written in the past.

I feel sorry for your next "victim".

Thal

[G.W.K]

LOL

G.W.K

[pianistimo]

freedom of speech is a right over here.  i don't think it is even listed as a right (excepting those in total agreement with limited rights) in the Human Right's Act.  when your rights are taken away, thal - you'll remember me.

noone cares what happens in government, either - until it personally affects them.  then they say 'what the heck!  when did this happen?'

[G.W.K]

Freedom of speech is a right here too. I agree with Thalbergmad however, you do constantly drivel rubbish. You are the only member here that has spent the most time here. Give it a rest please?

G.W.K

[pianistimo]

why?  don't you care who rules over you?  do you want it to be like imperial rome.  or does noone care?

btw, thal started the 'religion' thread - not me!  a sort of advertisement.

[thalbergmad]

 btw, i think stephen hawking has convinced a lot of people not to take the bible seriously as miracles cannot be explained. 

Well, you could say it is a miracle that he is still alive. Perhaps though, he is not too over the moon about suffering from a terrible incurable condition that your loving God has inflicted upon him.

Is this his punishment for showing millions of people that God is not required to sustain the Universe?

Thal