Religion

[jlh]

The uniqueness of the topic of religion on an internet forum from EVERY other topic (even politics) is that it is debated over and over and no matter how much logic either side has presented in any individual discussion NO side will budge an inch.  It is the proverbial unstoppable projectile coming into contact with the unmoveable wall.  They clash and no one wins -- but everyone looks foolish for trying to convince everyone else of their ideas.

Or maybe I have it all wrong?  hmm... this thread is 10 pages long and unless I missed something, everyone still holds their initial views, at least fundamentally. 

This is why I VERY RARELY will engage in any kind of internet debate on religion. 

[pianistimo]

can't believe i put that in the wrong thread.  thalbergmad and marik have to suffer until they personally do me in.  in which case, i'll be light years ahead of them then.

[mike_lang]

The uniqueness of the topic of religion on an internet forum from EVERY other topic (even politics) is that it is debated over and over -- but everyone looks foolish for trying to convince everyone else of their ideas.

But I like arguing and looking foolish for not being convinced of others' ideas about my religion...

Best,
ML

[pianistimo]

it's like people who ask for advice from a cleaning expert - and then telling them 'i'd never do that!'  (you know - 'scrub with the toothbrush, put the light fixtures in the dishwasher).  now, i'm not saying that true religion is that complicated - but there are elements that even the saints of the bible wondered about.  can you imagine moses looking at God first before he threw his staff on the floor in front of pharoah.  if nothing happened - it would look like a case of parkinsons. 

[wotgoplunk]

it's like people who ask for advice from a cleaning expert - and then telling them 'i'd never do that!'  (you know - 'scrub with the toothbrush, put the light fixtures in the dishwasher).  now, i'm not saying that true religion is that complicated - but there are elements that even the saints of the bible wondered about.  can you imagine moses looking at God first before he threw his staff on the floor in front of pharoah.  if nothing happened - it would look like a case of parkinsons. 

Same thing, religions reversed.

[pianistimo]

and yet - the bible says that we will be judged by our own words.  that means - for those who don't believe but the possibility is still there that they might be judged after death - that they should walk carefully in their time on earth.  rational means that one has considered the percentage that the pendelum would sway one side or the other.  science has no answers to 'why are we here.'  what if it is to 'love God and love your neighbor as yourself.'  upon those two things the entire law is based.  if this is true -t he entire planet is in trouble and greatly needs the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

[wotgoplunk]

  science has no answers to 'why are we here.'

Ah, ze miracles of chance. Given infinite time, probability is meaningless.

[wotgoplunk]

Pianistimo, if I said I were to believe in Celestial Teapotism you would call me a nutcase.

Now what if Celestial Teapotism was followed by 2 billion people? Taught in schools? Big gatherings to worship the Teapot? Books about the Teapot? Your parents believed in the Teapot? You would be called a nutcase for not believing it

[jlh]

Ah, ze miracles of chance. Given infinite time, probability is meaningless.

lol I would like to contribute one small thing to this discussion, since I recently have become aware of it and I think it's hilarious. 

Remember the whole monkeys, typwriters and Shakespeare scenario Thomas Huxley proposed?  That given six monkeys that would live forever, six typewriters that never would wear out, and an unlimited supply of paper and ink, these monkeys eventually would type the works of Shakespeare...

Lecturers and students from the University of Plymouth wanted to test the theory and did a month long experiment to find out what would happen... here's the story:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/news_features/2003/monkey_words.shtml

HAHA I would've liked to see some of the footage of the monkeys trashing the typwriters!

[ahinton]

can't believe i put that in the wrong thread.  thalbergmad and marik have to suffer until they personally do me in.  in which case, i'll be light years ahead of them then.  when i told marik his wife might 'do him in' - i didn't literally mean choke him to death or anything.  i mean drop little hints here and there.  you know - finally convince him on his death bed.  death bed conversions are ok, too. 

What's all this stuff about people doing other people in? I don't get it! In any case, own reference was not at all clear. And please don't ever try to convert my deathbed into anything, will you?

Best,

Alistair

[prometheus]

i don't think you belong in america

We had already established that you belong in either Saudi Arabia or Iran.

[pianistimo]

how about instead of making up teapot analogies - you first consider how remote the chance that anything should live in the entire universe.  how meticulous God must have been to create an environment for the smallest to largest living things and sustain them for soooo long.  what are the chances of that?  how remote is the idea that water came from a big bang - when there's only slight bits of ice on other planets and entire oceans on ours?  what chance in a zillion is being just the right distance from the sun?

everyone talks on here that they've taken this science class or that - but do they understand odds at all?  can anyone create life?  if not - why do they dismiss the ultimate life-giver and make an analogy to a teapot?  could a teapot create anything.  i feel that the teapot analogy is like calling your teacher a pebble.  when in reality we are just bits of dust.  how great is God?  great enough to not only create and sustain our planet - but the other planets AND their orbits and moons - the stars and all their constellations (and make them constant and set in their places - so that when our world rotates and orbits - that we have a pattern).  i think if you consider patterns alone - that would prove God exists.  how could patterns come from a random explosion?  try an experiment of making anything 'bang' and cause a pattern to radiate from it (that is not part of the natural physics excepting how particles work completely on their own). 

who created the idea that the earth should have a crust - and that tectonics should provide relief for our earth like a pressure cooker.  and who could create something in the midst of nothing?  how can the precise elements have evolved - if the same elements have been around since the beginning of the earth.  it is seen in the elements of the universe that God uses simple methods in complex ways to create many things - in specific patterns.  what about the mandelbrot set?  could a teapot or any created 'god' do this?  created from stone, imagination, or ancient story?

so - if we are here to love God and love our neighbor as ourself - which is a VERY simple request...why is it is so hard?  if we are so smart - our world should have been peaceful from the time it was made to now.  God is so complex in knowledge that we cannot find the ends of the universe.

[m]

thalbergmad and marik have to suffer until they personally do me in. 

Hey Thal,

Not sure about you, but I'd rather suffer for the rest of my life than do her in...
but may be it is already little bit more than people would want to know... .

[m]

BTW, Pianistimo,

Important question, but only "yes" or "no" reply, OK?:

Do you watch televangelist chanel?

[ronde_des_sylphes]

BTW, Pianistimo,

Important question, but only "yes" or "no" reply, OK?:

Do you watch televangelist chanel?

She is the televangelist channel 

[pianistimo]

not lately.  just as with governments - televangelists can be caught up in their own words and be hypocritical.  but, Jesus Christ is constant.  if some of the words they say are true and some are not - then the words that are not are incorrect.  i like to watch programs which show scripture and backgrounds behind it.  so you can read for yourself what the bible says.  it speaks for itself. 

occasionally i watch to see what the news is in the middle east - but also like reuters news service.  to get it from reuters means that it is not processed already as much and that i can process it for myself.

televangelists are not wrong in themselves - but some come from a position of being either too conservative or too liberal in the texts they choose to read or deliver.  for instance, the bible says that a woman should not be in a position of authority over a man.  so, if a woman is a televangelist - she is preaching to a man.  also, the very scripture that one reads should be compared to the originals (as we do with music) to see if the interpretation is correct.  we now have the dead sea scrolls to compare the words to and make them accurate.  some verses have been omitted and some have been added.

on this forum, i feel that we are all peers and that nobody is in a position of teaching as one would be in televangelizing.  the bible says that the best preaching of a woman is to lead a quiet life, in dignity (or something like that).  so if that is true - then why attempt to stress oneself out by taking a man's job?  the bible makes lives so much less complicated.  if we are supposed to take care of children, and our own famillies needs by job or taking care of what is already there - then that is also preaching a 'gospel.'

also, it gives a foundation of what a church is about.  Christ always spoke of doing His Father's will.  and, the analogy is also made of Christ as the husband of the bride (the church).  He always cares for it.  if this is how husband's should be - then they want to take the stress off their wives, and their wives to respect them and their thoughts.  in this way - there is peace also.  if everyone is a teacher - nobody listens.

today, this is backwards.  some women have shorter hair than men.  they speak louder.  they become unfeminized.  that creates some sexual problems.  and the list goes on.  some men become feminized because too many women in their life didn't let them mature in the way they were meant to.  these are my personal views and what i understand from reading the bible.  if there is an order to creation - there is an order to the church and to the family.

some of the smallest principles of the bible seem to be the key that unlocks some understanding about which churches are truly preaching the gospel.

[thalbergmad]

Blah blah jesus god crap drivel rubbish blah gospel bible trash blah blah chronicles genesis apostles blah blah bible crap.

Rubbish blah blah bible exodus moses blah kings blah crap rubbish bible jesus god.

Rant rave iran jews blah bible bible gospel peter. Pole dancing bible crap rant blah moses aaron chronicles psalms iraq blah muslims PA crap rant bible blah.

Jews hussein blah blah rubbish drivel bible bible crap moron jews exodus revelations rant blah drivel crap bible. Arminhedija iran iraq israel blah blah bible jesus apostles bible crap rant faint.

Crap rant bible bible jews iran kings pslams jesus god bible rant rant blah crap rant exodus moses commandments rant genesis rant blah god jesus aaron apostles rant blah blah bible crap.

Blah blah rant bible jesus god iran jews israel rant crap crap jesus god jews.

Average pianistimo post.

Thal

[mephisto]

Blah blah jesus god crap drivel rubbish blah gospel bible trash blah blah chronicles genesis apostles blah blah bible crap.

Rubbish blah blah bible exodus moses blah kings blah crap rubbish bible jesus god.

Rant rave iran jews blah bible bible gospel peter. Pole dancing bible crap rant blah moses aaron chronicles psalms iraq blah muslims PA crap rant bible blah.

Jews hussein blah blah rubbish drivel bible bible crap moron jews exodus revelations rant blah drivel crap bible. Arminhedija iran iraq israel blah blah bible jesus apostles bible crap rant faint.

Crap rant bible bible jews iran kings pslams jesus god bible rant rant blah crap rant exodus moses commandments rant genesis rant blah god jesus aaron apostles rant blah blah bible crap.

Blah blah rant bible jesus god iran jews israel rant crap crap jesus god jews.

Average pianistimo post.

Thal

4th funniest post ever!

[pianistimo]

one issue - 'saved by faith' - can be decieving.  some say - once you learn the gospel all you need to do is just be thankful.  that is not true according to the bible.  I john 3:7 'little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.'  now, practicing - doesn't mean perfection.  but, it's attempting to do what the law says with the intention of also loving others.  i don't think gentiles have to become jews - because paul said that whatever the church cleansed - it was alright.  but that they should abstain from eating food offerred to idols and not eat things with blood in it.  today, not being so familiar with these food restrictions - we would say - to abstain from sexual immorality (which the food offerred to idols was politely saying) and witchcraft - or the study of satan.  a house divided falls.  you can't serve two masters.

btw, thal - if you don't want to be on this thread - then why do you come on?  if you are not interested - why are you always here?  perhaps you are driven to come here?  by what purpose?  the same purpose you started the thread?  to make religion 'out.'  NOT A FREEDOM?  this is ridiculous for a person from a free country.  do you care about freedom?  i get the feeling that many people on this forum actually PREFER to be told what to do  (by education, news flashes, etc).  they then repeat the information over and over so it sounds like truth.  truth actually stays constant.  you can't change it.  'anything but piano?'  this is anything but piano.

[thalbergmad]

you can't serve two masters.

I think Pete Sampras rather disproves this.

Thal

[ahinton]

Blah blah jesus god crap drivel rubbish blah gospel bible trash blah blah chronicles genesis apostles blah blah bible crap.

Rubbish blah blah bible exodus moses blah kings blah crap rubbish bible jesus god.

Rant rave iran jews blah bible bible gospel peter. Pole dancing bible crap rant blah moses aaron chronicles psalms iraq blah muslims PA crap rant bible blah.

Jews hussein blah blah rubbish drivel bible bible crap moron jews exodus revelations rant blah drivel crap bible.

This has surely got to be your longest post EVER...

Arminhedija

Who? What? Ah, you mean "Ah - me dinner jacket"! OK. It's just the wey wot yew spels them, Thal - abit confewzing wen one looks at it for the furst thyme - pardonnez-mwa...

iran iraq israel blah blah bible jesus apostles bible crap rant faint.

I (and, let's face it, each of those three countries that you mention begin with that letter in our transliteration, do they not?!) most appreciate the last word here - or at least would do were it only possible to do so after reading a certain amount of this stuff...

Crap rant bible bible jews iran kings pslams

Er - wait a minute - who is "p" and who or what is he/she "slamming"?

jesus god bible rant rant blah crap rant exodus moses commandments rant genesis rant blah god jesus aaron apostles rant blah blah bible crap.

Blah blah rant bible jesus god iran jews israel rant crap crap jesus god jews.

Average pianistimo post.

I think that you made your point quite abit earlier in this most copious (for you) post, actually.

But let's be fair here. I have a number of Iranian friends who, whilst they may well be disspirited were they to read some of this stuff, nevertheless do live in their country and have been subjected in recent times to a certain effect of the Ahmadinejad rιgime which is the result of so potent a fear of the potential and actual effects of certain Western "classical" music that its practice and performance has come under fire from that rιgime to the extent that those subject to the said rιgime would be wise of dire necessity have nothing whatsoever to do with it other than between consenting adults in private. I find that kind of thing disturbing and worrying but nevertheless at the same time fascinating.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

why are you always here? 

Because i am a miserable sinner and i want to be saved.

Also, i like to take the piss out of maniacs.

Apart from that, i do not know why i am here as my presence serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever. Infact my presence on the whole goddam forum is not really required.

I am a worm.

Thal

[pianistimo]

i don't think all iranians are evil.  i think some of their leaders are.  pure evil.  it's not a dislike of western music only.  it's that because of our moral deterioration - they feel they have the right to kill us.  that it is a divine right.  i suppose what goes around - comes around.  and, there is always something equalizing in world politics.  perhaps we will be done in - but not by them.  by the bond they have established for peace in israel - the UN will do us in - and divide israel equitably to their liking for the palestinians.  in return - they keep oil supplies going to the UN.

just read your message thal - and am shocked.  i do not think you are a worm.  however, when a country such as iran openly holds anti-american rallies and burns effigies of bush and the us flag - i would say that the leadership is not exactly what you would want coming to speak at an american university.  THAT is worm behavior.  also, they are currently fighting us in iraq along with syria.  they are bungled warriors who's only chance of success hinges on the UN.  why did we let them meet.  this is tragedy in the making.  should we let them plot in our own country?

[ahinton]

i don't think all iranians are evil.

I should ****** hope not! You're suppose to be a Christian, after all...

i think some of their leaders are.  pure evil.

Isn't "pure evil" an oxymoron?...

it's not a dislike of western music only.  it's that because of our moral deterioration - they feel they have the right to kill us.  that it is a divine right.  i suppose what goes around - comes around.  and, there is always something equalizing in world politics.  perhaps we will be done in - but not by them.  by the bond they have established for peace in israel - the UN will do us in - and divide israel equitably to their liking for the palestinians.  in return - they keep oil supplies going to the UN.

The one bit of real sense here is your reference to oil - this is what your country's present government is after in its activities - it doesn't give a drying duck about Islam or anything else in that geographical area...

just read your message thal - and am shocked.  i do not think you are a worm.  however, when a country such as iran openly holds anti-american rallies and burns effigies of bush and the us flag - i would say that the leadership is not exactly what you would want coming to speak at an american university.  THAT is worm behavior.  also, they are currently fighting us in iraq along with syria.  they are bungled warriors who's only chance of success hinges on the UN.  why did we let them meet.  this is tragedy in the making.  should we let them plot in our own country?

And are they any better than the Bushian war-mongerers? Not abit of it! I've less than no patience with either.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

however, when a country such as iran openly holds anti-american rallies and burns effigies of bush and the us flag - i would say that the leadership is not exactly what you would want coming to speak at an american university. 

Bush burns Countries not flags.

Is that not worse?

Thal

[pianistimo]

terrorist training camps in afganistan and iraq.  iraq to afganistan -afghanistan to iraq and syria.  connection?  yes. weapons found.  yes.  plans to bomb this and that?  yes.  so if they are so innocent - why did they fight to hide everything they had?  perhaps israel was the agenda?  saddam hussein would have loved to put out israel.

should the usa not give a whit about israel?  i don't think so.  we are fighting also for israel.

people say 'oil only.'  well - if we are paying what we are for oil - i'd think that is not the case totally.  we are paying for a war which is going on much longer - and most of the oil refineries got completely messed up in iraq didn't they?  what did that cost to fix?  nobody is getting the 'better end of the stick.'  besides - we still don't control any oil.

if president bush did only one thing correct in the war - it was saving israel from saddam hussein and giving iraqis and kurds and people who were oppressed freedom.  God will bless this act - and it may be the final charitable one to israel before the UN takes over.

terrorists always act innocent - but that is before they bomb you.

[thalbergmad]

You are fighting for Oil.

Terrorism is sometimes the only weapon people have.

Afgans & Iraqis that have been killed in their thousands by your trigger happy tambo banging Texan, do not have bombers.

Bush is the most dangerous man on the planet. A man who claims God is behind him is even more dangerous.

It will be someone like you that triggers World War 3. A deranged religious maniac.

Thal

[pianistimo]

?  are you truly british and you are now muslim?  are all your constituents muslim now?  are you for middle-eastern ways - over british ways.  or are you just playing a part so you look good to your intellectual friends.  it'll look kinda stupid later.

do you value your country's history?  i suppose you bash your own as well?

if britain fought almost as long and hard as forces from usa - then you should have wayy lower gas prices.  we don't own the oil.  get that in your brain.

have you noticed that President Bush rarely, if ever, discusses religion.  the only thing intellectuasl dislike is that israel still exists.

[mike_lang]

are you now muslim?  are all your constituents muslim now or are you just playing a part so you look good to your stupid middle-eastern friends.  it'll look intellectual later.

do you value the oil?  get that in your brain.

I think he is just rather annoyed by the two of you (yourself and Bush.)  But then, he's not alone...

Best,
ML

[ronde_des_sylphes]

the only thing intellectuasl dislike is that israel still exists.

!!!
Unbelievable.

I'm sure if Oscar Wilde was alive today, he'd be saying "There's no sin except the continuing existence of Israel"  Then again, I suppose he's irrelevant and evil, as he was homosexual.

[ahinton]

If I may risk making things even worse here (albeit wishing to do nothing of the sort) by pouring OIL, of all things, on the presently troubled waters of this thread, I might like to report that, despite the statutory attitude in Iran of late towards Western music, it has just come to my attention that the Osnabrόck Symphony Orchestra has recently become the first Western "classical" ensemble to perform in Iran since the 1979 revolution; with its female members attired in deference to the Islamic dress code, the orchestra evidently gave a concert including Brahms's Fourth Symphony as part of a cultural exchange between Germany and Iran that last year saw the Tehran Symphony Orchestra (which I must confess I had thought had been disbanded under the present diktats in Iran) perform in Osnabrόck. State radio, TV and newpapers remain forbidden to broadcast / write about Western "classical" music, yet this event was still permitted to happen. When one looks at the crazy routing of all things to do with Western "classical" music in the aftermath of the 1979 revolution in Iran and then the subsequent dilution of this hard-nosed attitude followed by Ahmadinejad's clampdown followed by this, one can perhaps begin to realise that what goes around comes around, fortunately - even in Iran as it is currently "administered". I don't think that the climate in Iran is yet quite suited to the possibility of Jonathan Powell giving a Sorabji recital to include Djami, Gulistan or The Garden of Iran (from Sorabji's Symphonic Variations), but...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

?  are you truly british and you are now muslim?  are all your constituents muslim now?  are you for middle-eastern ways - over british ways.  or are you just playing a part so you look good to your intellectual friends.  it'll look kinda stupid later.

do you value your country's history?  i suppose you bash your own as well?

if britain fought almost as long and hard as forces from usa - then you should have wayy lower gas prices.  we don't own the oil.  get that in your brain.

Just because i am British and proud of it, does not mean i am not capable of seeing the errors of our ways and to understand the feelings and situations of others.

This is one of your many problems. You are so blinkered and single tracked that you only see the American point of view. Your feeble mind cannot think outside the box as your programming will not allow you to do so.

Meeting and talking to Muslims has opened my eyes a bit to the effects that my Governments actions can have on other people. A year ago, i admit that i thought all Muslims were terrorists and should be deported. But after meeting these people and listeneing to them, i am now prepared to admit that i was way off the mark and my opinions were as bigoted as yours are.

I do believe it is important as a human to have the balls to admit that you are wrong. This is a quality you do not seem to posses.

If Christianity produces fanatical trolls like yourself, i want nothing to do with it.

Your comment on gas prices clearly illustrates your ever increasing stupidity.

Thal

[pianistimo]

i have never called immigrants trash.  you have.  you bash them with relish and then side with them?  you are very strange.  all i have spoken about are GOVERNMENTS and LEADERS.  not the average person who is just trying to make a living.  also, i have sided with those who were innocent at guantanamo and i believe started a rant about it before anyone else. and, for the record - believe that Allah and God are the same one God.  so - who is calling who what?

alistair mentioned that the prices of things in britain compared to us are almost double.  if he is to be believed, then your gas prices are also.  this was mentioned several times.  should i take you all at your word?

[wotgoplunk]

how about instead of making up teapot analogies - you first consider how remote the chance that anything should live in the entire universe.  how meticulous God must have been to create an environment for the smallest to largest living things and sustain them for soooo long.  what are the chances of that?  how remote is the idea that water came from a big bang - when there's only slight bits of ice on other planets and entire oceans on ours?  what chance in a zillion is being just the right distance from the sun?

No, answer my Teapot analogy. Again, it doesn't matter what the chances are, GIVEN INFINITE TIME! Even if it is small. Out of all the "zillions" of planets, surely one must have the right qualities for life, and we happen to be living on it.

everyone talks on here that they've taken this science class or that - but do they understand odds at all? -Insert junk here-  how could patterns come from a random explosion?  try an experiment of making anything 'bang' and cause a pattern to radiate from it (that is not part of the natural physics excepting how particles work completely on their own).

You don't understand odds, you can't grasp that infinite time makes probability meaningless. The Big Bang != an actual Bang. Please take a physics course.

so - if we are here to love God and love our neighbor as ourself - which is a VERY simple request...why is it is so hard?  if we are so smart - our world should have been peaceful from the time it was made to now.

Damn religion, always causing so much conflict, doesn't it? Imagine if we were all Buddhist, Jainist, Hindu or Humanist.

 

God is so complex in knowledge that we cannot find the ends of the universe.

Um...you see, that would be because there are no ends to the Universe.

[pianistimo]

only God is infinite.  we can see that because we have lifespans.  so do various things like carbon-14.

[thalbergmad]

i have never called immigrants trash.  you have.  you bash them with relish and then side with them?  you are very strange.

What crap is this, I bash ILLEGAL immigrants. I never said anything about you calling them trash. Anyway, my previous post was about MUSLIMS, not IMMIGRANTS.

Many Muslims have been in England for years and are as British as i am.

I am not siding with anyone, but unlike you i am prepared to listen to others apart from my own Govenment, in order to form my opinions.

That is why you are a bigoted narrow minded pea brain.

Thal

[wotgoplunk]

only God is infinite.  we can see that because we have lifespans.  so do various things like carbon-14.

a) The Universe is infinite as per Hubble's law.
b) The Universe is not biotic.
c) Carbon-14 is not used in radiometric dating, it measures living things.

[thalbergmad]

only God is infinite. 

There is one more thing that is infinate.

The daily trash that spews out of your backside onto this forum.

Thal

[pianistimo]

well, where did it begin the motion?  where did the 'big bang' get up the gumption?  that actually disproves the big bang.  you lose.

the redshift in light coming from distant galaxies isn't proportional to their distance.  ask any scientist today if that was proven true.  how about discovery of spirals?

[mike_lang]

hubble's law - a body in motion stays in motion (hey, i remembered from physics class).

Isn't that Newton's first law?

In any case, however, we all do have our theories as to the [C]ause of the Big Bang, and I believe that you and I agree on that.

Best,
ML

[wotgoplunk]

hubble's law - a body in motion stays in motion (hey, i remembered from physics class).  well, where did it begin the motion?  where did the 'big bang' get up the gumption?  that actually disproves the big bang.  you lose.

You remembered wrong or your physics teacher was drunk at the time. Redshift is proportional to the distance of galaxies; that's what Hubble's Law is.

You are thinking of inertia. Which doesn't do anything to the argument as it applies to closed systems only.

EDIT: Thank you Michael

You have yet to refute my arguments for the Big Bang, actually. Or my refutations for your refutations on evolution. You appear to be avoiding it

[wotgoplunk]

\the redshift in light coming from distant galaxies isn't proportional to their distance.  ask any scientist today if that was proven true.  how about discovery of spirals?

It wouldn't be a bloody law if it wasn't proven, would it?

There's a very straightforward mathematical equation: v=H_oD, where _o is Hubble's constant.

I can give you the proof, but you'd never understand it without a physics degree. (Or a teacher with a physics degree spending three lunch hours explaining it to you!)

[mike_lang]

EDIT: Thank you Michael

Certainly.

You have yet to refute my arguments for the Big Bang, actually. Or my refutations for your refutations on evolution. You appear to be avoiding it

I don't mean to impose my opinions on others of the forum, nor do I think it possible to quite do so, but I do not believe that the Big Bang, Evolution, and God the Creator exclude one another.  Perhaps I am unclear on the definitions of the first two?

Best,
ML

[wotgoplunk]

I don't mean to impose my opinions on others of the forum, nor do I think it possible to quite do so, but I do not believe that the Big Bang, Evolution, and God the Creator exclude one another.  Perhaps I am unclear on the definitions of the first two?

Best,
ML

Typically they wouldn't. But you'd have to be a very liberal Christian, relying on loose interpretations of the Bible. If God set off the Big Bang however, we encounter the "Contingency on Spacetime" paradox, documented HERE.

They are not mutually exclusive, but you'd really be pushing it 

[ahinton]

hubble's law - a body in motion stays in motion (hey, i remembered from physics class).

Also sprach Pianotreet's resident pole-dancer!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

alistair mentioned that the prices of things in britain compared to us are almost double.  if he is to be believed, then your gas prices are also.  this was mentioned several times.  should i take you all at your word?

I also wrote a paragraph in which I referred to both Ahmadinejad and Brahms (which I admit is a first for me); you did not respond to that, however - or at least you have yet to do so even having (presumably) read it...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

but, hubble was thinking linearly.  no cosmologists think that way anymore.  also, what holds the universe together.  if it had nothing hold it apart - it would turn into a fireball if it expanded more - popping like a balloon.  perhaps it will?  rev. 21 'and i saw a new heaven and new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away.'  also, II peter 3:7 'but the present heavens and earth by His word are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgement and destruction....'

another thing is that hubble even reflected on his own work with skepticism.  he said that the only general criterion of great distances is the apparent faintness which REQUIRES one determine a nebulae to be stationary or receeding.  how do you determine that?  that determines the answer!  and, if it is mostly by visual aid that we determine this information - of space between nebulae as 'measured' - does that in any way determine a specific size of the universe?  where does he get this measurement from ?

[m]

what holds the universe together. 

As far as I know it is gravitation... unless Pianistimo invented some new physics law and somehow I missed it.

[pianistimo]

that's my point!  if there is something (gravity) holding it together - then we have a problem attempting to say that more mass will be contained.

the fact our universe has not turned into a fireball already is a miracle isn't it?

what is dark matter?  we know it holds and spaces things apart from each other - but it doesn't only have one function does it?  i mean it does hold things similarly to gravity but it is not gravity alone.  how can you explain that?  i don't really know much about all this - but i've heard that it also has the capability to 'invert' or something.  to lose as well as gain gravity?  something like that?  a sort of shape shifting.  now- why does this not affect our galaxy so much - because our stars and planets have stayed constant for as long as we've been here.  they are not farther apart.  our calendar and time would have been affected.

[ahinton]

but, hubble was thinking linearly.  no cosmologists think that way anymore.  also, what holds the universe together.  if it had nothing hold it apart - it would turn into a fireball if it expanded more - popping like a balloon.  perhaps it will?  rev. 21 'and i saw a new heaven and new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away.'  also, II peter 3:7 'but the present heavens and earth by His word are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgement and destruction....'

another thing is that hubble even reflected on his own work with skepticism.  he said that the only general criterion of great distances is the apparent faintness which REQUIRES one determine a nebulae to be stationary or receeding.  how do you determine that?  that determines the answer!  and, if it is mostly by visual aid that we determine this information - of space between nebulae as 'measured' - does that in any way determine a specific size of the universe?  where does he get this measurement from ?

Still no response to my post from Saintly Sister Susan the Selective...

Bst,

Alistair