Mahlerian Piano Music?

[dlu]

Are there any composers who wrote music for the piano that is stylistically Mahlerian? If you need me to elaborate just let me know.
DLu

[retrouvailles]

Mahler has a piano quartet. Only the 1st movement and part of the 2nd movement were finished though. Alfred Schnittke completed the 2nd movt, but I'm not familiar with his completion. The quintet is a bit of an early piece and has some awkward piano writing, but it's in his style.

Aside from that, I can't think of anyone who wrote in a "Mahlerian" style. Please do elaborate.

[cmg]

I can't even imagine "Mahlerian style" outside of the context of a large, post-Romantic orchestra.  Whether bombastic, titanic, epic or intimate, the effects are achieved through virtuosic orchestration saturated with color. 

Maybe "Pictures at an Exhibition," perhaps?  But it lacks the intense navel-gazing of Mahler's greatest works.  Ravel's masterpieces certainly have the "color," but the spiritual depth?  Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms have the spiritual depth, but the color?  Dunno. 

Good question.  So what's your definition of "Mahlerian style?"

[dlu]

I've always loved Mahler and I've wanted to get better acquantined with his music. I want to get more involved in his music than simply listening. With composers who have written for the piano, I usually just play their piano music to do this. Maybe Mahler's music is just so complex that it simply takes a large group of people for it to be convincing. I've wanted to come across a composer (who wrote for the piano) that was/is a master manipulator of the tonal system; someone who could convey overwhelming emotions; music that is tragic and unharnissed and full of drama.

How about Britten?

DLu

[furtwaengler]

(Too long...I'm sorry! I meant only to mention Busoni )

I must say, dlu, I share your love for Mahler, and your need to be better acquainted with his music. I have the scores of his songs and symphonies, and at least 30+ recordings and performances of each symphony, including nearly 70 of the 6th Symphony (!), and still there is this wall, and this constant begging desire that I approach it with a baton and an orchestra...alas a "need," at this point, I quite honestly know not how to fill.

I've wanted to come across a composer (who wrote for the piano) that was/is a master manipulator of the tonal system; someone who could convey overwhelming emotions; music that is tragic and unharnissed and full of drama.

For me, the answer is Ferruccio Busoni, whose pianistic legend has sadly placed his wealth of compositional talent in an unfair shadow. I was reading through the Elegies today and there is an obvious Mahlerian influence, especially in All'italia which is very close in language to some of Mahler's Wunderhorn songs...the almost manic play on the major-minor progressions and the emotional language...The mood swings produced are a Mahler finger print. This small etching of influence is not to take a way from Busoni's fantastically original sound-world, as anyone who has experience with the operas, the elegies, the Fantasia contrappuntistica, etc. very well knows.

Incidentally, Busoni performed with Mahler's orchestras (or at least the Philharmonic Society of New York), and the last concert Mahler conducted included the premiere of Busoni's Berceuse elegiaque, which is of course, the orchestration of the 7th Elegy; this originally piano composition is the seed that blossomed into this orchestral vision - as unique and beautiful a work as has been penned by man (and I mean that! Completely transcendent). Have a look! You can stand up for his compositions which desperately need to be performed and remembered!

Also, do not neglect the so called, Second Viennese School, Schoenberg, Berg and Webern. They were born out of the vast romanticism of Wagner, Bruckner and Mahler (and I'll include Brahms!). A little study shows their great respect for Mahler in particular...Schoenberg's writings, Berg's claim that "There are only two 6th Symphonies...Beethoven's and Mahler's..." and that the 6th was the first symphony of a new era. This does leave you with only a few options, and on paper these options may seem the ascetic opposite of Mahler, but they are highly concentrated and an inward answer to Mahler's outward language (I'm not going to try to work that out...). Of the three, Berg is the closest, that leaves you with that Op. 1 sonata (a masterpiece!) and a chamber concerto, if you wish to be so involved.   

How about Britten?

Both Britten and Shostakovich were famously fond of Mahler, though both fall well short of the type of musical complexity Mahler's music displays. Let that simplicity come as refreshment to your mind, as there is much to love and experience. Britten inherits the same usage of folk song and common elements (not banality!) which Mahler inherited from Schubert. I'm afraid I cannot speak with any depth on any solo piano pieces Britten may have written, as I'm much more familiar with the larger orcherstral works and the opera's, but there is a piano concerto which is lean and energetic with a neoclassical tilt, and do find some singers to go there some of his songs! You'll find singers love singing them, and you'll love playing them, and will be much better for the collaboration.

Shostakovich, of course has two sonatas, two sets of preludes, ala Chopin...ala Bach (preludes and fugues), which speak for themselves. Shostakovich has in his works, little hidden tributes to composers he's loved and been influenced by, such as Bizet's Carmen in the 5th Symphony, Berg's Violin Concerto and Beethoven's Moonlight sonata in the Viola Sonata, etc. and I think you'll find many small, if indefinable illusions to Mahler also. The conception of the Viola Sonata itself, may elude to Mahler's 9th Symphony! 

On this note, back in February I was fortunate enough to play an atypical, but very rewarding recital with a cellist. We had started making plans in October, at which point she offered a 30 minute slot in the recital all to myself (a bit rare!). So the program was as follows: Vivaldi Concert in G minor for two cellos, Shostakovich's Cello Sonata, and Beethoven's Op. 111 Piano Sonata. Now, sometimes in working on certain pieces of music, what might be a universal constant can hit you in different ways...seeing things through the eyes of other things, whether they have much to do with each other at all - It's quite fascinating, and in working with the Shosty Cello Sonata, moments from Mahler's 7th Symphony often crept in my mind (especially in the first movement's second theme). Now in this case, probably a coincidence relating to a familiarity with the Mahler 7th, and the phenomenon of the above universal constant.

But the Beethoven brought something much more revealing - and here is a point... you can travel backwards in time, as well as forwards, i.e. searching for things which brought about Mahler (or think of how amazing the comparison between, works of other composers, such as the astounding shared nature of the harmonic mountains in the developement of Schubert's G major Sonata, and the slow movement of Bruckner's 8th Symphony!). In practicing the trills which close Beethoven's op. 111, I was overwhelmed with this deja vu, that I'd tasted this feeling before. Indeed it was the "Ewiger" of Das Lied von der Erde on the tip of my tongue, and it is a startling similarity...that holding on and seeping out. Even more amazing is the discovery of Mahler's own experience with Op. 111 as written by Fritz Loerh:

"He could never have given an account of how he achieved what he did; every thought of technical difficulty was utterly cancelled out; all was disembodied, purely contemplative, passionately and spiritually concentrated on all that, without conscious physical contact, passed from the keys into his being. In a way all his own, comprehending it with the energy and accomplishment of genius, bringing out every nuance, every shade of expression, he caused the music to ring out with all the force with which it had gushed forth from the soul of its creator. In Beethoven's Sonata Op. 111 (No. 32), for instance, the storm at the beginning broke out in a terrible maestoso, shatteringly intense, with a wild ferocity such as I have never heard again; and similarly the finale faded out, pure, utterly luminous, in loveliest beauty, softly and softlier still, from closest touch with this earth out into eternity."

   

As well as the knowledge of Mahler's quoting and eluding to Beethoven's Op. 135 in his 3rd Symphony, and Op. 27 no. 1 in the 4th Symphony. Add to this the possible illusion to the first movement, Op. 111 in the build up and march of the finale of Mahler's 2nd Symphony!

This could go on and on, and looking up, it appears it has, and I'm sorry I've written so much, at least for the sake of my current exhaustion (which somehow lends itself to on and on writing...hm). I hope at least some of this is helpful...Beethoven, Schubert leading to Mahler; Busoni, Britten, Shostakovich taking from Mahler, etc, with no end.

Ah....good night, or morning or whatever it is!

[pianistimo]

i disagree.  mahler was clearly attempting to outdo beethoven with his symphony of a thousand.  the piano concerto of busoni is an attempt to eclecticize random things together - whereas mahler thought in one unified whole.  just like beethoven.  the only composer after mahler would be leonard bernstein who could so aptly bring many varied subtlties into some kind of unification.

[daniloperusina]

Didn't Strauss write some piano music? Didn't Gould record some? And I remember hearing a piano sonata by Sibelius many years ago that impressed me. Maybe it could be what you're looking for? Is anyone more familiar with this music?

[cmg]

[quote author=dlu link=topic=26127.msg298128#msg298128 date=1185506753
 I've wanted to come across a composer (who wrote for the piano) that was/is a master manipulator of the tonal system; someone who could convey overwhelming emotions; music that is tragic and unharnissed and full of drama.


DLu

Based on this post, I think there are many composers who have achieved this Mahlerian intensity in isolated works here and there.  I agree that Busoni is a very strong candidate.  Beethoven, of course, in Op. 111 just about outdoes everyone!

I think the Dukas Sonata has an epic sweep to it, for example.  Dutilleux's Sonata, as well.  Shostakovich's Preludes and Fugues have an accumulative progression of power, complexity, profundity that, taken as a whole, have symphonic sweep to them. 

The Brahms F minor Sonata is about as enormous as things get and is packed with expressive power.  Max Reger, certainly, in his variations on Telemann and Bach.  And what about the composers of the so-called "New Complexity" school?  Sorabji, Hinton, etc.


Richard Strauss's piano works, if I remember correctly, are rather early essays in his compositional career and don't come close to the power of his tone poems and operas.  (Now, there's genius for you.)

Mahler was rather unique in his abilty to combine the sublime with the ridiculous.  I think that constant juxtaposition in his work gives it the defining Mahlerian sound.  In many ways, I don't think there's a greater piece of music than his "unfinished" Tenth symphony. 

[dnephi]

Liszt's use of color is similar to Mahler's use of orchestral color.  Mahler's form feels weak much of the time and the quality of the music is not as consistent as Brahms.

Brahms' sonatas have been called the pianistic equivalent of Bruckner and Mahler Symphonies, having the same limitations of form that those symphonies have.

The Liszt Sonata is a huge form, intricate, complex, ingenius, and emotionally intense.  It's notnearly as long as a Mahler Symphony, but comparable.

Perhaps the Liszt S139 Etudes would count.  Bound together thematically, with a large-scale tonal form and exploiting the keyboard to its limit, if played, it would last between an hour and an hour and fifteen minutes, about the length of a short Mahler Symphony.

Liszt's transcriptions of the Beethoven Symphonies certainly would work, as well.  The 9th is perhaps the greatest transcription ever made. 
Busoni's solo piano transcription of the Fantasia and Fugue on Ad Nos Salutarem Undam, perhaps. 
The Godowsky Transcriptions of the the Bach Cello Suites as wholes.
Tausig transcriptions of some Beethoven String Quartets.

Reger's Variations and Fugues come to mind, but they take a long time to get used to.  The Telemann variations are more lighthearted and surprisingly beautiful, while the Bach are more serious and intense.

[pianistimo]

bernstein understood mahler the best, therefore could compose in his style.
https://www.leonardbernstein.com/studio/element2.asp?id=378

morbid preoccupation with death is lacking in the others - but completely there in west side story.

bernstein conducted a concert at the tearing down of the berlin wall in 1989.

agreed with all of you, technically - and especially cmg and dnephi about the various elements of what makes mahler - mahler.  the reason liszt sonatas 'fit' is that liszt was also one of those 'death obsessed' individuals.   

brahms is in a completely different category in my mind - but at the same time i can see what you are saying very plainly.  perhaps for him - it was less 'death' emoting and more 'depression' stimulating.  but, brahms always had a 'hopeful' element to his music, too.  that was completely lacking in mahler.  bernstein mentions shostakovich.  i would tend to gravitate to him, also - as a follower of the mahlerian style.

[dnephi]

Does anyone else find Pianistimo's discussion of death and Bernstein completely confusing?

[pianistimo]

BEETHOVEN, LISZT, WAGNER, MAHLER, SHOSTAKOVICH =scotch on the rocks

btw, bernstein knew mahler was part jewish.  that's why he also related to him.  phyrigian mode and all that.

bernstein of all the conductors who conducted mahler knew what he was about.  DEATH.  ok.  he understood what the 20 and 21st centuries were going to be like.  it's like we have wagner imitating the vulcan gods - but mahler completely combining the ideas with modern warfare or his own heart arythmia.

https://history.sandiego.edu/gen/st/~stark/page1b.html

https://www.mahlerarchives.net/archives/amentaM9.pdf

[pita bread]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Alkan.

[dnephi]

hahaha da KANcerto?

[cmg]

Does anyone else find Pianistimo's discussion of death and Bernstein completely confusing?

Just a tad, but you gotta love her!

Alkan, pita bread.  Yes.  Especially the "Grande Sonate: les quatre ages."

[dlu]

Thanks everyone! I wish I had time to address each one of your replies seperately.

So, we have:

Berg Sonata
Schoenberg
Webern Variations
Sibelius Sonata
Dukas Sonata
Liszt Sonata In b
Liszt Transcriptions of Wagner (I really want to explore these)
Alkan
Busoni
Late Beethoven
Early Strauss
Shostakovich
Britten

...

DLu

[pianistimo]

fantastic variations (from don quixote)  by leonard bernstein

oops that was composed by richard strauss and conducted by leonard bernstein

ok variation vii in particular.  'ein wenig ruhiger als vorher.'

and the overture to candide by bernstein.  he can link these small motives into a huge thing that coheres.

[thalbergmad]

Its a shame that Havergal Brian did not compose a great deal for the piano.

I am gradually listening to his Gothic Symphony, which some have likened to Mahler. He did write his great E flat double fugue for the piano whilst composing this symphony, but i have not heard this yet.

I will leave this discussion to the experts. I know little of the 20th Century.

Thal

[ted]

A little out of context in this thread, but yes Thal, I like Brian too, especially his late stuff when he was in his eighties and nineties. Dozens of fleeting ideas all kaleidoscopically crowding in on one another. It's quite unlike anything else in music. Like looking at a macrocosmos through the wrong end of a telescope, or a populous city viewed from the nineteenth floor, with everything mapped onto everything else. Extraordinary music and an extraordinary man.

[jpowell]

Are there any composers who wrote music for the piano that is stylistically Mahlerian? If you need me to elaborate just let me know.
DLu

Ignaz Friedman wrote a transcription of the minuet from Mahler's 3rd Symphony, but apart from that, you'll have to look to composers like Joseph Marx (who in many ways is the closest), Franz Schmidt (who only really wrote the delightful Romanze for a two handed pianist), Wilhelm Grosz (earlier pieces), Felix Petyrek (earlier pieces), the Berg Sonata, Uray, original pieces of Friedman, some Godowsky even, Bruckner's Erinnerung, perhaps some Dohnanyi, Stojowski, earlier pieces of Rathaus, etc., the earlier of the Schoenberg fragments, perhaps even some Jarnach, Krenek etc even though these are pushing it a bit.

I don't get much joy from the Strauss pieces perhaps because they were written when he was a child, but the transcriptions by Grainger, Godowsky and Sorabji go some way to addressing this deficiency. And Korngold, of course, Siegried Karg-Elert, Reger, Reznicek, Zemlinsky, Suk and Szymanowski all have many Jugend-Stil moments, too, and most of these admired Mahler (and, in the case of Suk, Mahler him).

[cloches_de_geneve]

Schubert's late (piano) music evokes an atmosphere akin to Bruckner's and Mahler's. beethoven is overrated as a precursors of romantic and especially late romantic music. The music of Bruckner, Mahler, Dvorak (and arguably Liszt, Brahms and Tschaikovsky as well) would be unthinkable without Schubert. No wonder all these composers loved him dearly.