Technique

[tengstrand]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking for good questions on techique for a seminar on August 6, could you post one here if you do have one? I had a q. about the octave glissandos in Waldstein Sonata (that's a tricky one) that's great, but I need more...even if you have the answer!

Thanks!

Here's where the seminar will be at:

[tengstrand]

OK...I'm going to rephrase this:

In your opinion, which technical problems are the most common among advanced students?

I have my views on this, but I discovered this forum is full of very knowledgable people and I'm really curious what your thoughts are on above question.

[invictious]

In your opinion, which technical problems are the most common among advanced students?

Everything. Pianists come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. You can't exactly pinpoint several technical problems which are common, because it would be a fallible generalization and lead to false conclusions.

As you said, advanced students, that means they have been playing for a quite a period of time. Since they have been playing for some time, depending on the way in which they are 'raised', ie grew up with Czerny, or grew up with Mozart, Bach, Miss. Texas. Different composers compose with inherently different styles requiring different technique and approach, and through the process of becoming an 'advanced student', they will have weaknesses and strengths according to their teachers.

So now, you wish you were raised with Rachmaninoff :p

[tengstrand]

Well, all that is true, but still, I think there can generalizations made, knowing that these are generalizations with the flaws that comes with it. It's not that damn complicated. I was a jury member in the Cleveland Competition two years ago, and while the musical presentation was incredibly diverse, the technical aspects were easier to see.

[daniloperusina]

In your opinion, which technical problems are the most common among advanced students?

In my opinion, it's the abitility of playing with colour.
Two examples: Schumann's Träumeri, the very first chord in bar one, which must be played so that the sustained melody is not overpowered. How many people do not destroy the piece already there?

Chopin Ballade nr 1: The opening, so many people get stiff here and can't seem to give it any sort of shape at all. And the left hand accompaniment to the theme, which must be so carefully voiced and phrased.

Most advanced students that I've heard have less problems with fast scales, arpeggios, octaves etc.

You yourself is a prime example of a suberb pianist in this sence, not only being a technical virtuoso of the highest order, but also extremely sensitive. You should teach us this sensitivity!

Two more basic questions, the octave trills in moonlight mvt 3, and how to not get exhausted in Waldstein mvt 3, the 8 bars of descending 8th notes at the beginning of the prestissimo section, just before the ff.

[fnork]

"how to not get exhausted in Waldstein mvt 3", that's a good question A troublesome part you didn't mention, daniloperusina, is the sixteenth-triplets in both hands (ending on a G dominant) for two pages right before the 'prestissimo' part, I've always found that rather awkward to play... on the other hand, I'm sure most people don't notice if the two hands are not totally together. (otherwise, add lots of pedal, hehe  ) I hope the octave glissando question gets answered by the way, I tried fingering it with two hands instead but it's not the best solution - however I never understood how to play octave glissandos.


Per, we haven't met but I intended to come to your course in helsingborg (I'm studying in Stockholm at the moment) - however some other things came in between and I just couldn't make it this year. I hope I will be able to come next year instead. It's great that you are going to post all of the masterclasses on youtube, that's a pretty good substitute for me! About the technique seminar, I will have to think a while about some questions I would like to ask - I'll try to post them later today. The opening right hand figurations of "Ondine" from Gaspard de la nuit might be of interrest for some pianists I'm sure - had trouble with that while learning the piece last fall... I'll post more things later.

Martin

[tengstrand]

Those are great issues to bring up, thanks a lot! It is certainly good to be able to prepare and do some pre-thinking to answer questions like the ones on the Waldstein and Ondine. And the question of color we will certainly bring up! All too often, teachers just speak about colors as a matter of hearing them, not how to actually acquire them.

Thanks guys!
Per

[daniloperusina]

"how to not get exhausted in Waldstein mvt 3", that's a good question A troublesome part you didn't mention, daniloperusina, is the sixteenth-triplets in both hands (ending on a G dominant) for two pages right before the 'prestissimo' part, I've always found that rather awkward to play...

That's true! Personally I've had sort of less trouble with them in general, but the last three bars, right hand playing Dmajor arpeggio: D-F#-D-A-F#-A, with fourth finger on D, I never have enough strength left for them! I would certainly like to rely less on a generous use of pedal there... 
The whole movement is indeed beyond the difficulty of arpeggios, trills and octave glissandos, it is also about stamina!

[daniloperusina]

Perhaps you need to be introduced!

If I'm doing the wrong thing now, I'll use the 'modify' button..

I quote from memory, so much could be wrong:

Mr Tengstrand made his official debut at age 12, playing Mozart Concerto nr 21 with Malmö Symphony Orhcestra.
He continued his studies in France, winning medals and awards.
He made acclaimed debuts with Concertgebouw Orchestra among others very early, and has since appeared regularly as a concerto soloist and recitalist at the worlds leading music centres, with all the major orchestras. His first CD, with Brahms sonata nr 3, Chopin Ballade nr 4, and works by Cage, received rave reviews when it was released in Sweden in the early '90s. He won the gold medal at the Cleveland Piano Competition in 1997.

[fnork]

Those are great issues to bring up, thanks a lot! It is certainly good to be able to prepare and do some pre-thinking to answer questions like the ones on the Waldstein and Ondine. And the question of color we will certainly bring up! All too often, teachers just speak about colors as a matter of hearing them, not how to actually acquire them.

Thanks guys!
Per

I totally agree about colours, it's being talked about a lot but not HOW to do it.
And by the way, speaking of Ondine I'm learning Scarbo at the moment - would be interresting to hear something about how to do some of those lightening-speed arpeggios (for instance right after the opening "modere", where the "vif" starts, and also in the 2-3 pages before "un peu retenu" - the first FF climax - hope you know where I mean), because the technique seems to be pretty different from doing just normal-speed arpeggios.

[fnork]

Another thought...

Most of us students know that there are lots of different ways of practicing a passage - you can play with high fingers, in different rhythms, you can practice forte or piano, staccato or legato - and in performance you won't do any of those things of course but it helps to get the pieces to performance standard - hopefully! The only problem for many pianists is that there are so many different ways to practice these things that it's sometimes hard to know exactly WHAT is going to help - it's of course a matter of experimenting, but admittedly we all have wasted hours of valuable practice time by practicing something in a bad way. So what I would like answered (and it's probably a hard question, I know..) is if it's possible to set down any "rules" for when you should practice with ie high fingers, and when it helps to practice with different rhythms etc. I'm sure students would find it enlightening to know WHY it helps to practice in these ways too. Or who knows, maybe you think it's BAD to practice in rhythms - if so, it would be interresting to know why one shouldn't do it. Well, you get the idea..

[invictious]

As you can see here already, generalizations CANNOT be made. You would have to address each technique separately and exclusively. if you made a blunt generalization, you'd look like a fool (I know someone who did, damn..)

Also, Mr. Tengstrand, you can also utilize examples from simpler pieces in the advanced repertoire, you don't have to go to Waldstein, because not many people would have played it.
The pathetique on the other hand, although still a high level, more people would have played it. You can talk about the left hand tremolos, wrist staccato, tone color and shaping etcetc

[pianistimo]

i never played measures 465-475 as a glissando at all.  perhaps i wasn't playing as prestissimo as possible?  but, i like the one handed octave playing because then you don't have to suddenly play the rh chords as though you are doing some sort of magic trick.  you just play the chords in the rh whilst you are octaving in the lh.

is there some secret to doing a glissando with one hand.  can you slip on some kind of guitar plucking triangle apparatus on your thumb and pinky for this effect?  i don't know - but it seems that giving coherence to the entire waldstein is an even more daunting challenge. (although, i am all ears about how to play this glissando with one hand.  bending thumb, i assume.  and sliding pinky.  i shall try it at the next possible chance).

being a sort of classical romantic instead of romantic classicist - i like to hear repeats of ideas at basically the same tempo.  i heard a rendition of the ninth symphony once that made me want to puke.  it started wayyy too slow and never 'went anywhere.'  it was just one big undigested meal.  of course, one can play too fast, too, and then really mess up voicing.

perhaps we should discern between correct aesthetics for the time period in which the piece was composed - and variations on aesthetics that some pianists just assume is perfectly alright but which messes with the audiences mind.  for some, like myself, might even cause an audience or jury member to plug their ears with disgust.  you know, mangling tempos and not keeping anything 'relative' to anything.

[pianistimo]

carrying on with the topic of technique, though - i was wondering if various composers actually had discussed their own techniques at length and perhaps would make the playing of their pieces much easier.  i know, for a fact, that some fingering is much better than others in chopin and liszt and therefore makes the technique more possible.

i've wondered also about technique and the size of one's hands.  i heard about a smaller piano that was being manufactured for people with smaller hands and how much it helped one woman play chopin as she had always dreamed.  the only problem is that if you have played a regulation (regular sized) keyboard for 20 some odd years - it might be harder to play a smaller piano after that and guess jumps and all. 

i've always considered technique an element that came with having a varied repertoire.  perhaps i DO link it to various composer's own technques and what they were attempting to do.  for instance, playing brahms is very different than chopin - so you learn how to finger-pedal and things like that.  overuse of pedal is something that should be eliminated from all advanced techniques. 

in fact - if i were to take a seminar - i would want it soley on pedalling as it seems the deficit of most teachers.  i mean, you can read books (such as york bowen's) but an actual class and hearing the different ways and ideas to use pedal would greatly improve many pianists technique.  i feel very fortunate to have had several teachers that helped with this problem - and yet, i am open to learning more.  one thing i learned was that 'spot' where dampening happens and to hover around it and not lift the foot completely off the pedal.  perhaps this is intermediate stuff - but, i've seen a few advanced students pedal terribly.  quick changes don't have to be obvious and the very slight action of the foot is much preferred to slap tapping.

[m]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking for good questions on techique for a seminar on August 6, could you post one here if you do have one? I had a q. about the octave glissandos in Waldstein Sonata (that's a tricky one) that's great, but I need more...even if you have the answer!

Thanks!

Here's where the seminar will be at:

It is a great promo clip--good luck with the seminar!

Are you looking for more specific questions (like how to practice L.H. so one would be able to play var.2 from Brahms-Paganini the same tempo as var.1, or how to learn to play Chopin Op.10/2 straight after Op.10/1 ), or more generic--something like how to develope, let's say, control and relaxation in double notes or octaves, or for example something like: "How to understand both, Chopin's and Liszt's definition of  technique as an art of sound?"

Too bad, everybody knows exact answers to these questions .

Best, M

[piano32]

As you can see here already, generalizations CANNOT be made. You would have to address each technique separately and exclusively. if you made a blunt generalization, you'd look like a fool (I know someone who did, damn..)

Also, Mr. Tengstrand, you can also utilize examples from simpler pieces in the advanced repertoire, you don't have to go to Waldstein, because not many people would have played it.
The pathetique on the other hand, although still a high level, more people would have played it. You can talk about the left hand tremolos, wrist staccato, tone color and shaping etcetc

Yes Marik, it's true that the ANSWERS should not be generalized, then one really looks like a fool. But the problems can to a certain degree be more common than not, and that's more what I meant. One thing teachers tend not to take into account enough is that every pianists has different hands (size, mobility etc.) and solutions has to be in accordance with the shape of the student's hands. We will talk about that, since it's overlooked too much (I have seen a teacher with huge hands trying to have a petite asian with small hands using his fingerings, etc). And in a way, that is a general technical problem: how do I know what solution is best for my hands? There will also be a guy who is a piano teacher AND a doctor, and I hope to bring some good info on anatomical stuff when it comes to piano playing. In sports, they know these things a LOT better than we tend to do.
THANKS for everybody's input, it's great! Keep writing guys, I'm learning a lot here.

[piano32]

in fact - if i were to take a seminar - i would want it soley on pedalling as it seems the deficit of most teachers. 

My teacher at the Paris Conservatory, Dominique Merlet, used to have a seminar on pedalling, he was fantastic with that. He gave us excercises to train the foot just as we would have excercises for arms and hands.

[m]

Yes Marik, it's true that the ANSWERS should not be generalized, then one really looks like a fool.

Dear Piano32,

I am afraid to disappoint you, but I did not say that ANSWERS should not be generalized--it was Invictious.

On the other hand, why they should not be generalized? It is true there are many individual factors, like hand size and shape, motorical and coordination differences, etc., and individual approach is ESSENTIAL in piano teaching; but in the core, technique has certain rules, which applicable to any technical figurations, or any person... well... there are always  exceptions, but those exceptions are only to support the rule.

Even though if somebody does not play Waldstein, the same principles of octave glissandi (which BTW, very much overlooked. Not many even experienced teachers know how to teach them.) will be applicable to those found in Brahms-Paganini or Mephisto Waltz (should one chose to play it with one hand). Moreover, the same principles will be applicable to ANY double note glisses--Alborada del Grazioso, Paganini-Liszt no.5, etc, regardless of hand size, or construction.

Likewise, in a global understanding, would not the idea of technique as a tool of musical expression be equally applicable to either Bach, Chopin, or Schoenberg?
Wouldn't it ultimately answer the question of "technique is an art of sound"?

Best, M

[m1469]

On the other hand, why they should not be generalized? It is true there are many individual factors, like hand size and shape, motorical and coordination differences, etc., and individual approach is ESSENTIAL in piano teaching; but in the core, technique has certain rules, which applicable to any technical figurations, or any person...

Best, M

Even for a monkey ? 

Anyway, there are principles to movement/motions I guess 

[m]

Even for a monkey ? 

Monkey is a person

[m1469]

Monkey is a person

Oh, yes.  Why, that is precisely the moral of the message .

*finger points to the moon* ... "oh what a lovely finger"

[piano32]

 

[tengstrand]

I am afraid to disappoint you, but I did not say that ANSWERS should not be generalized--it was Invictious.

Likewise, in a global understanding, would not the idea of technique as a tool of musical expression be equally applicable to either Bach, Chopin, or Schoenberg?
Wouldn't it ultimately answer the question of "technique is an art of sound"?

Marik, sorry, I was answering Invictious! To answer your question from before, I think it's good to have both specific technical spots which poses problems (in general, haha) and the discussion on why and for what reason we try to get good techique (playing fast just being a small part of it).

Of course it is a tool of musical expression, otherwise technique is completely pointless...but I have some ideas about how to work on "techique as an art of sound" that some might not agree with. I'll  talk about that and we'll see the respons.

The Q. of some rules in technique that works for all - I think those are connected with how our body and hand is built. That's why I'm curiuos on the input of the teacher&doctor.

Thanks a lot for input (I hope your signature quote does not apply to me, haha)

All best!
Per

[jlh]

Oh, yes.  Why, that is precisely the moral of the message .

*finger points to the moon* ... "oh what a lovely finger"

 

[daniloperusina]

  who is actually piano32 and who is tengstrand?

I mean, piano32 answers tengstrand's messages, then tengstrand refers to piano32 as I, and before all this piano32 refers to tengstrand in third person in another thread: "I will listen to how Tengstrand plays that"

Maybe it's a sign of genius

I mean, Glenn Gould used to interview himself...

[m]

who is actually piano32 and who is tengstrand?

Don't worry, they just share a computer.
What has happened is that Piano32 forgot to logout and Tengstrand came and stole Piano32's message, leaving a  smiley, instead.

Since they seem to be good friends, it is no biggie, and it is great to see them here, both 

[daniloperusina]

No....you miss the point...
Look up the thread where I got that quotation from....
Then you'll see!

 

[m]

No....you miss the point...
Look up the thread where I got that quotation from....
Then you'll see!

 

Which thread?
In any case, it doesn't matter. Even if assume that both of them are the same person, as you seem to imply, still I don't see ANY contradiction.
I clearly see if somebody would ask: "How to play Chopin Op.25/6?", there is no doubt I'd answer: "Let me listen to how Marik plays that"...

... and modestly look at my shoes 

[m1469]

Oh, I just don't stand a chance with all of these brilliant minds around me ... I'm so confused  -- I can't even *imagine* what is going on 

[daniloperusina]

jeeez...both of you would make lousy detectives 

piano32 is tengstrand!

And if you read the thread, here in performance, called "Liszt Sonata"...get it?

It's quite funny actually!

[m1469]

*climbs into steam roller*

[m]

jeeez...both of you would make lousy detectives 

piano32 is tengstrand!

And if you read the thread, here in performance, called "Liszt Sonata"...get it?

I knew it long ago, just prefer things stated in a subtle way...

*modestly look at my shoes*

P.S. In any case warm welcome to both!

[ramseytheii]

OMG, did he really post a link to his own Youtube video pretending to be someone else?

Walter Ramsey

[daniloperusina]

The presence of piano32 here, in any shape or form, can only be beneficial for everyone.
I just don't get this 'pretending to be someone else'
I have mixed feelings about that.
It's a bit funny
It's a bit not so funny

 

[m]

What is the problem?

If I understand correctly he is a Scandinavian. Culturally, people's from that region from my experience (mind you, I am married to one), have very different sense of self promotion and might feel very uncomfortable to do it directly. Creating another character is a very natural way of getting out of this situation.

In any case, what does it matter?!!!, esp. considering that Mr.  Tengstrand is an excellent pianist, who only in a few posts said more than some members in 10.000+.

People, don't be smarties, take a chance to learn from somebody who knows a thing or two about piano!!!

Haha! Listen to his Liszt Sonata (BTW Piano32, thank you for pointing it out  )! Do you really believe he's got more to learn from you than you from him?


Best regards, M

[m1469]

People, don't be smarties, take a chance to learn from somebody who knows a thing or two about piano!!!

Haha! Listen to his Liszt Sonata (BTW Piano32, thank you for pointing it out  )! Do you really believe he's got more to learn from you than you from him?


Best regards, M

Who are you talking to, exactly ?    Anyway, I am happy to learn and did indeed watch the video ... very helpful for me, thanks for posting it Tengstrand, and thanks for pointing it out Piano32 .

[tengstrand]

Hello everyone,

I see that people got confused, I will sort things out here:

I, myself put my video up on YouTube, and my friend who is logged in as piano32 put it up here. I suggested it, so there is not a huge difference from me doing it myself. If you like, yes, I promoted my own video. Yesterday I was using his computer and mistakenly answered questions here from his login since he had it on automatic login. When I saw this, I tried to change it, but it would only let me change the last one, so I put a smile in there and wrote the whole thing again in my name. I apologize to everyone for the messup, I feel totally stupid!

And yes, we Scandinavians are terribly shy when it comes to promote ourselves. Why is that?

And now, to finish, I would LOVE to promote a video on YouTube with myself: we made this video for Swedish Television, and worked 25 hours straight, since the budget didn't allow 2 days of work. When you see the woman eating a cake, you know what she is eating? Shaving foam! It was 4am and no real cakes with cream could be found...

Warmest regards to everyone,
Per

[tengstrand]

PS...I don't like the way I play the last note in the Liszt Sonata at all! That, I had nothing to do with.

[daniloperusina]

Thanks for explaining!
And whenever you have the time, keep posting your videos and recordings, they are jewels!
Open self-promotion is perfectly alright, imo it's what this place is about!

Warm greetings!
Danilo

[jlh]

And now, to finish, I would LOVE to promote a video on YouTube with myself: we made this video for Swedish Television, and worked 25 hours straight, since the budget didn't allow 2 days of work. When you see the woman eating a cake, you know what she is eating? Shaving foam! It was 4am and no real cakes with cream could be found...

Well done on the vid!  I found your interpretation refreshing, after hearing countless half-baked performances of it.

Shaving cream?  Nice!  That would explain the look on the woman's face while biting into it!  And then the man stops her from finishing it, as if he knows it's shaving cream and is thinking, "no way are you eating THAT!"

Bravo!
Josh

[thalberg]

Well, it's not August 6th yet....are you still looking for questions?

1.  My most burning question:  how does one do the repeated note in Alborada del Grazioso?  I can't do it!!!

2.  Pianists talk about using a "pushing finger" or "pulling finger."  I've heard Veda Kaplinski advocates the pushing finger, at least much of the time.  I almost exclusively push, yet someone like my friend Elizabeth Schumann almost exclusively pulls.  What do you think about the issue?

3.  Olga Radosavljevich at the Cleveland Institute got an excellent tone quality from her students by talking about a technique called "playing up."  She refused to tell me about it, claiming it was her secret.  I saw it mentioned in a book once, though. Do you know anything about it?

4.  Among advanced pianists, moving the fingers is often not a problem; sound quality tends to be the  problem.  I struggle with a "heavy" sound.  How do I lighten it?  Another friend of mine has rather weak fingers and his tones don't have much of a "center."  What can one do to achieve good sound?

5.  Burning question:  So many recordings of Beethoven and Schubert (Murray Perahia, Richard Goode, Artur Schnabel) have such variable rhythms.  Things speed up and slow down all over the place, yet it sounds good. How does one deal with rhythm and tempo in these cases?

6.  Another one -- Chopin 3rd scherzo.  In the trio section, all professional recordings are totally out of rhythm.  What are they really doing?

(you may choose any questions you like and discard the rest)

[pianistimo]

very talented - but those shoes?  scandinavian - i suppose? 

i like your light touch.  my teacher likes to play flimsy pianos like yours.  it just makes the fast notes come out better.  but, the only problem is - how did you make it come out so well on the other clip - with a totally different piano with a much more 'deep tone' kind of sound - like thalberg mentioned.  do you practice both ways.  light and dark so to speak?  it's very hard sometimes for pianists to go from a light actioned to heavy actioned piano.  so - do you think always practicing on a heavy actioned piano is a good idea - or do you just mostly ditch them?  i was fairly disinterested at steinway hall to see any piano that didn't have a fairly stiff action - but then - i realized none of the performing artists seem to want to perform on them.  you just use them for practice pianos?  the stiff action ones? 


 

[ramseytheii]

Wonderful questions!  I know this is intended for the masterclass usage, but I thought I could give some information which may be helpful or at least interesting.

2.  Pianists talk about using a "pushing finger" or "pulling finger."  I've heard Veda Kaplinski advocates the pushing finger, at least much of the time.  I almost exclusively push, yet someone like my friend Elizabeth Schumann almost exclusively pulls.  What do you think about the issue?

Both should be thought of as types of touch, and neither is exclusive.  One time I heard Mitsuko Uchida speak, and she made the pushing motion, saying, we often hear to play by pulling out, but you play just as often pushing in. 

While the two touches have varying uses, it's useful to think of them in places which might be described as typical: in the last movement of Beethoven's op.111, in the long melodies in nontuplets in the high register, the "pulling" touch, or as I like to call it, "stroking the cat," others call it "dusting the piano," (in fact that was how Beethoven's touch was referred to) is necessary for the right atmospheric sound.  In the first movement, Maestoso, the "pushing" touch, or as I like to call it, "perpetual motion," (because the energy that goes forward is rebounded and starts again, like tetherball) is necessary for all the chords to avoid heaviness and to control the dynamic, especially in the diminuendi.

I think in general, piano playing is never totally vertical, or totally horizontal: when you move horizontally, you really move in arcs; when you have to play "vertically," you also play in arcs, but from forward to back.

Although these are highly specialised forms of touch, children can learn them from early on, particularly in staccato playing.

3.  Olga Radosavljevich at the Cleveland Institute got an excellent tone quality from her students by talking about a technique called "playing up."  She refused to tell me about it, claiming it was her secret.  I saw it mentioned in a book once, though. Do you know anything about it?

I think there is never one answer to tone quality, and if she gets results from a personal method, they are nothing that noone else can get as well.  Actually, I've heard some of her students and it seems to me they play very choppily, and without refined melodic line?  But not as extensive contact as you must have had.

I suspect her words may have something to do with following-through on the sound; tone-quality is immediately improved when pianist stops playing vertically, up-down up-down, and starts playing 3-dimensionally.  This allows for concentration of energy; refinement of touch in longer phrases; and air into the rhythm. 

Martha Argerich in an interview describes the experience of playing piano as playing from below the keys, upward.  It's never an image that worked for me, but maybe you will find it interesting.

4.  Among advanced pianists, moving the fingers is often not a problem; sound quality tends to be the  problem.  I struggle with a "heavy" sound.  How do I lighten it?  Another friend of mine has rather weak fingers and his tones don't have much of a "center."  What can one do to achieve good sound?

For me, the essence of good sound comes from polyphonic playing, and those who agree include Neuhaus, Godowsky, and Cherkassky.  By polyphonic playing, I don't mean just Bach fugues, but I mean approaching every piece of music from the standpoint as achieving the maximum variety of sound.  As soon as we pay the closest attention not to quality in general but the quality of varying sonority, the sound quality improves.

Take a look for instance at one difficult example, the second movement of Beethoven op.31 no.2 .  An extraordinary refinement is required to achieve the balance between the registers, because he composed this piece according to the individual sonority of the registers.  The LH often has chords that span an octave; for instance, F - E^b-G^b, that have to sound polyphonically: the low F is one register, one instrument, and the upper third is another.

I approach all music like this, without exception, even such seemingly uncomplicated pieces as Chopin op.10 no.1 and op.25 no.12.  Sound quality does not come from a general treatment of the piano, but from work on diversity of sound.  In other words, there is no unspecific sound quality, and it is all relative to what is heard around it.

5.  Burning question:  So many recordings of Beethoven and Schuberg (Murray Perahia, Richard Goode, Artur Schnabel) have such variable rhythms.  Things speed up and slow down all over the place, yet it sounds good. How does one deal with rhythm and tempo in these cases?

I remember an interview with Barenboim where he claimed that because of the dissolution of the "traditional" tonal harmony, students now play more mechanically because they don't feel naturally the tension between chords.  I think this is slightly ridiculous, because traditional harmony is taught much more thoroughly in conservatories than modern techniques, and also because popular music, which is inescapable in our society, is still based on those simple harmonic relationships.

But in his thought is the answer to your question: they are playing so freely because they are stretching or contracting the tension between large harmonic movement, at least that is my opinion (except in the case of Schnabel who did have a rushing problem at times - though other times intentional).  The tempo variations come from the inner experience of the large structure.  What a ridiculous platitude I just wrote.  Well, you know what I mean!


Walter Ramsey

[thalberg]

Wow, Walter!  What a fascinating response.  You're very knowledgeable.  This is funny to me, because I've spent so much time on the non-piano board I never really got to know you as a musician!  A good lesson to me to stay on task and remember why I'm here.  I'd like to hear about your musical background sometime......I'm also curious how you came to  hear Olga's students play.  Many of them do have flaws, as you have heard, but that is only because they don't practice.  In my time with her, she had about 4 students who actually had talent and practiced, and they sounded unbelievable.  She's the sort of person where the more a student can take, the more she can give.

Hmm trying to think of more questions for Tengstrand's master class.....

1.  How to play chords....I've heard them taught as a wrist snap, also taught with an outward motion of the elbow, and also with a forward thrust of the arm.  Which way is the best?

2.  Abbey Whiteside talks about improving sound quality with a slight outward rotation of the humerus....what do you think?

3.  You could explain how to do rotation in passages such as broken octaves (i.e. transition beethoven op2 no 3)

4.  Also, Olga used to talk about "managing your weight at the instrument" and gave lots of instructions for how to use the top arm and upper body.  Perhaps you could discuss that.

I know the answers to a lot of these questions....just thought they may further help the class.  Okay, that's 10 questions total from me....enough I hope? 

[prongated]

...I have a burning one, having failed to record Chopin 10/1 last night and busted my RH in the process...

I have read about teachers who claim to be able to teach all of Chopin's Etudes up to speed in a month or less (2 weeks even). Obviously some/lots of work are put in it, but what interests me is the following:

1. No case of tendonitis
2. (curiously?) one of the teachers said (in a subtle manner) that when one learns/practises the etude(s) slowly, one would be learning the wrong hand movements etc. i.e. it'd be ineffective; wrong approach etc. etc.

...opinions?

[ramseytheii]

...I have a burning one, having failed to record Chopin 10/1 last night and busted my RH in the process...

I have read about teachers who claim to be able to teach all of Chopin's Etudes up to speed in a month or less (2 weeks even). Obviously some/lots of work are put in it, but what interests me is the following:

1. No case of tendonitis
2. (curiously?) one of the teachers said (in a subtle manner) that when one learns/practises the etude(s) slowly, one would be learning the wrong hand movements etc. i.e. it'd be ineffective; wrong approach etc. etc.

...opinions?

Speaking of op.10 no.1, I promised a long time ago I would post something indicating how it can be practiced polyphonically (ie for sound quality).  This way of practicing has the unbeatable advantage also of relaxing your entire hand, which normally - but not always - is tense due to trying to play every note at equal weight. 

When we can take away some of the physical intensity, and replace it with musical purpose, we often find that technique falls into place.  So here I post the first long phrase of Chopin's etude as I would practice it.

You will notice that the way I've notated it is not the only way possible, but it is just one of a myriad ways, only to indicate the nature of what I'm recommending.  I'm posting this etude in particular, because I think it is one which is most often taught in a purely physical way, which I abhor and reject almost completely. 

There was a post on this very pianoforum, a while back, where a person actually went to the trouble of trying to describe the position (as if such a thing existed) of the wrist on every note.  Such a thought process seems to me worse than Chinese water torture.

I've added slurs occasionally only to clarify voice-leading.  The most important thing to remember is that the accents only refer to melodic patterns - each of the large notes is to be played melodically, and with a different sonority than the small notes.  This is how I would practice this etude.

I repeat because it is extremely important: this exercise only works if the large, accented notes are played melodically.

I would be interested to hear people's comments (or complaints).

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

Sorry, there was a mistake in the file (D-flat should read D-sharp).  Here's the corrected version

Walter Ramsey

[prongated]

...interesting...to me, it feels like you are highlighting many of the pattern changes in the RH in that process. Thing is, will it be effective when played up to speed?

[ramseytheii]

...interesting...to me, it feels like you are highlighting many of the pattern changes in the RH in that process. Thing is, will it be effective when played up to speed?

Practicing should not always be up to speed!  And slow practicing should be essentially creative.

Walter Ramsey

[cmg]

Well, I'm either a genius or a complete dunce (who's missing the entire point of your etude insight) but is there any other way to practice and perform this piece?  Highlighting melody and voice leading (as you've indicated in your notation) is what transmutes its purely "etude status" into truly, great music.

Plus, the damned thing becomes playable and you don't nod off when you're practicing it!

Thanks, claude.