Piano Forum logo
November 18, 2017, 06:41:38 AM *
   Forum Home   Help Search  


Recommended Book: Keyboard Interpretation

This inspiring standard work is an introduction to the interpretation of keyboard music discussing musical types and forms, tempo, phrasing and articulation, fingering, rhythmic conventions, the “tones” or modes, ornamentation, pianists’ problems, and editors’ problems. Read more >>

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Biggest Jerk Pianist  (Read 9543 times)
thalberg
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 1949


« on: July 28, 2007, 09:50:22 PM »

Which famous pianist do you think was the biggest jerk in real life?

(I'll vote perhaps Gould because he was arrogant and weird and sued Steinway for one of their employees tapping him on the shoulder.)
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
daniloperusina
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 475


« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2007, 10:05:14 PM »

Pogorelich for his first visit to the Steinway basement NY, entering, not even looking at their chief concert technician Franz Moor, and dropping his jacket on the floor, meaning 'pick it up..servant'
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
opus10no2
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 2138


« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2007, 10:11:51 PM »

Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
mikey6
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 1403


« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2007, 12:54:31 AM »

Kissin seems like an arrogant prig, but dunno, could be........because......he can't..........talk.......at a .....normal......rate......
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

Never look at the trombones. You'll only encourage them.
Richard Strauss
invictious
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 1033


« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2007, 03:36:49 AM »

(I'll vote perhaps Gould because he was arrogant and weird and sued Steinway for one of their employees tapping him on the shoulder.)

He WHAT? Tell me about it

'lawl' at opus
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

Bach - Partita No.2
Scriabin - Etude 8/12
Debussy - L'isle Joyeuse
Liszt - Un Sospiro

Goal:
Prokofiev - Toccata

>LISTEN<
ramseytheii
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 2515


« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2007, 02:49:30 AM »



Who is this?  I think this picture is intended for people with dirty-sock fetish.  Such a thing exists!  A lot of male pop stars are trained to interact with the media in such a way that suggests neither hetero- nor homo-sexualism; that way they attract the most people as fans.  I think this picture is going a bit too far in trying to attract new fans amongst foot fetishists...?

Walter Ramsey
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
thalberg
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 1949


« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2007, 08:41:05 AM »

He WHAT? Tell me about it

'lawl' at opus

Well, I've heard two versions of the story.  One is that a Steinway employee shook his hand.  The other is that the Steinway employee patted him on the shoulder.  It's in Franz Mohr's book ,"My Life With The Great Pianists."  Anyway, it was just a litttle pat--couldn't hurt a fly.  Gould claimed the employee had 'hurt' him, and sued, and WON, for something like $300,000 dollars (this was more than thirty years ago).  Steinway was mad at him.

Because they were mad at him, they didn't rebuild his piano properly years later, and he was devastated and played Yamahas for the end of his life.  I don't know why he chose Yamahas--I hate them.  Why not Bluthners or Steingrabers or Bechsteins or Masons?  So many better choices.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
thalberg
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 1949


« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2007, 08:51:04 AM »

Another funny one about Gould.

Barbra Streisand loved Gould, and he was a fan of hers.  Once she walked in on one of his recording sessions--Beethoven Emperor with Stokowski I think--and said she just wanted to say hi.  The two had never met.  He just stared at her in silence.  She finally said "I'm Barbra Streisand."  And he just said, "I know."

Hmph.....no wonder he never dated.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
daniloperusina
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 475


« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2007, 05:06:53 PM »

And one more:

Gould was filming with Menuhin. They were supposed to play Shoenberg, and have 'impromptu discussions' about the piece while they were rehearsing. Only thing was that Gould was neuroticly obsessed about being in control, so he had made an exact script, including Menuhin's answers. Menuhin, tounge-in-cheek, decided to pull a prank and during the filming made a completely different answer, whereupon Gould's face make the most horrible twists of panic.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
jabbz
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 272


« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2007, 05:38:12 PM »

Remember, Gould probably had autism or anyothersuch variant. This is even more probably considering the extent of the man genius. I personally don't much like DaWhale, or Lang Lang, but thats just me.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
ramseytheii
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 2515


« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2007, 02:35:09 AM »

Remember, Gould probably had autism or anyothersuch variant. This is even more probably considering the extent of the man genius. I personally don't much like DaWhale, or Lang Lang, but thats just me.

I can't ever see the description of jerk fitting a person who donated his entire estate, including decades of royalties, to the Humane Society.  Over-sensitive perhaps, in regards to the Steinway lawsuit.  And isn't Lang Lang one of the most friendly pianists?

I haven't yet met a famous pianist, who if they seem unpleasant, only puts on an outer shell of curmudgeondom, because they are approached by so many insipid people.

Walter Ramsey
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
jabbz
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 272


« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2007, 09:41:52 AM »

I imagine Lang Lang is probably very friendly, but I think musically he's a jerk. Amazing fingers however!

Gould was definitely over sensitive, but as you said, very generous.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
etudes
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 812


« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2007, 11:49:12 AM »

I imagine Lang Lang is probably very friendly, but I think musically he's a jerk. Amazing fingers however!

Gould was definitely over sensitive, but as you said, very generous.
da DONGAH is very friendly....I can tell that,met him at several occasions and he was always friendly  Cool even he was tired like pigs after prokofiev 3rd concerto
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

Piano = my life
My life = piano
jacobwynn
PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 29


« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2007, 05:47:00 PM »

Leonard Bernstein

A really horrible arrogant insulting (pardon-my-french).
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

Last thing he said: "Play Bach for me".
jakev2.0
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 809


« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2007, 01:16:53 AM »

Gould was obsessive about his health. He apparently injured his spine as a child, and his parents were protective of him. The whole thing about him having Asperger's is completely  unproven/unprovable. Gould was a good soul.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
soliloquy
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 1464


« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2007, 06:43:57 PM »

Who is this?  I think this picture is intended for people with dirty-sock fetish.  Such a thing exists!  A lot of male pop stars are trained to interact with the media in such a way that suggests neither hetero- nor homo-sexualism; that way they attract the most people as fans.  I think this picture is going a bit too far in trying to attract new fans amongst foot fetishists...?

Walter Ramsey


It's mei-ting sun, and yes he's a douche.  Gotta look at Leslie Howard and Cyprien Katsaris for biggest *** pianists.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
houseofblackleaves
PS Silver Member
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 205


« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2007, 09:19:20 PM »

lol.

I just saw Mei-Ting live at a music festival in Minneapolis not too long ago.  You can HEAR the arrogance in his playing!  It's SO GREAT.

Regardless, I think that being a ego-maniac is better than being a stiff-ego-maniac that spends his/her time enslaving government officials, conspiring against Aflak and prowling the streets eating children.

XD
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
gerry
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 658


« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2007, 12:32:13 AM »

lol.

Regardless, I think that being a ego-maniac is better than being a stiff-ego-maniac that spends his/her time enslaving government officials, conspiring against Aflak and prowling the streets eating children.

XD

 Huh
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

Durch alle Töne tönet
Im bunten Erdentraum
Ein leiser Ton gezogen
Für den, der heimlich lauschet.
jakev2.0
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 809


« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2007, 07:22:01 PM »

Keith Jarrett is a very unpleasant human being.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
pmz310
PS Silver Member
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 153


« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2008, 04:10:13 PM »

I say Vladimir Horowitz haha
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

"Lets put a smile on that face of yours" -Heath Ledger
communist
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 1100


« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2008, 11:54:28 PM »

mark f**sman
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

"The stock markets go up and down, Bach only goes up"

-Vladimir Feltsman
mattgreenecomposer
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 267


« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2008, 01:24:09 AM »

Ive heard Yefim Bronfman is a real douche, but man that guy can play!
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

Download free sheet music at mattgreenecomposer.com
quasimodo
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 880


« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2008, 02:23:09 PM »

I've heard Andras Schiff was a total ass...
He's also the pianist I dislike the most in Bach.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

" On ne joue pas du piano avec deux mains : on joue avec dix doigts. Chaque doigt doit ętre une voix qui chante"

Samson François
learner of liszt
PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 74


« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2008, 09:40:01 PM »

Richard Kastle. End of story.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

"My age… I cannot remember it, it keeps changing every year!"
~Bernhard
"Why should I go to anyone's funeral? They won't go to mine!"
~Learner of Liszt
healdie
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 475


« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2008, 03:55:05 PM »

[quote author=thalberg link=topic=26169.msg298614#msg298614 date=1185659422

(I'll vote perhaps Gould because he was arrogant and weird and sued Steinway for one of their employees tapping him on the shoulder.)
[/quote]

I have Aspergers Syndrome and i am often considered by those around me to be selfish, arrogant and wierd and cannot abide poeple touching me it makes me physically angry, i was considered strange as a child when at nursery i would not let my mother hug me and when she did i would scream
i still won't

so if Gould di have Aspergers this could be a result of that
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

"Talent is hitting a target no one else can hit, Genius is hitting a target no one else can see"

A. Schopenhauer

Florestan
lc604
PS Silver Member
Newbie
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2009, 07:35:25 AM »

Well, I've heard two versions of the story.  One is that a Steinway employee shook his hand.  The other is that the Steinway employee patted him on the shoulder.  It's in Franz Mohr's book ,"My Life With The Great Pianists."  Anyway, it was just a litttle pat--couldn't hurt a fly.  Gould claimed the employee had 'hurt' him, and sued, and WON, for something like $300,000 dollars (this was more than thirty years ago).  Steinway was mad at him.

Because they were mad at him, they didn't rebuild his piano properly years later, and he was devastated and played Yamahas for the end of his life.  I don't know why he chose Yamahas--I hate them.  Why not Bluthners or Steingrabers or Bechsteins or Masons?  So many better choices.

Well despite what happened at Steinway, Gould's last piano which is a Yamaha Grand is still in working order at the lobby of Roy Thompson Hall in Toronto if anybody is interested in seeing it in person.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
communist
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 1100


« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2009, 11:53:38 AM »

Which famous pianist do you think was the biggest jerk in real life?

(I'll vote perhaps Gould because he was arrogant and weird and sued Steinway for one of their employees tapping him on the shoulder.)

He was arrogant? please explain, and what does it matter if he was 'weird'? does that justify him being a jerk?

My vote goes to Vladimir Feltsman, he is a great pianist but he is incredibly condescending.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

"The stock markets go up and down, Bach only goes up"

-Vladimir Feltsman
Karli
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 1626


« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2009, 08:39:18 PM »

.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
communist
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 1100


« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2009, 08:57:54 PM »

Oh ?



That was just an immature joke.



How so ?


*pulls up a chair, sits at the table with a bottle of warm vodka and drinks to the bottom ... *  Wink

Whenever he gives a masterclass and he is demonstrating a section, he plays through 3 minutes of the piece with no need of doing so. he also tries to act cool, I saw him perform live and after he finished a piece he made a hand motion as if he was wiping sweat of his head.

Great pianist though.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

"The stock markets go up and down, Bach only goes up"

-Vladimir Feltsman
Karli
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 1626


« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2009, 09:13:25 PM »

.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
communist
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 1100


« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2009, 09:17:11 PM »

Does it mean that the joke will soon mature and perhaps become funny ?



I was probably 'obliterated' (drunk) when I said that.

Do you think you would ever wish to hide, communist ?

Huh?
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

"The stock markets go up and down, Bach only goes up"

-Vladimir Feltsman
Karli
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 1626


« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2009, 09:21:41 PM »

.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
pianowolfi
PS Gold Member
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5655


« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2009, 07:10:11 PM »

Oh ?

How so ?


*pulls up a chair, sits at the table with a bottle of warm vodka and drinks to the bottom ... *  Wink

*same here, but with vodka on ice*


Argh I hate this thread  Angry
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
gyzzzmo
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 2210


« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2009, 07:18:02 PM »

Gould wins for me. He also gets my 'most overrated pianist' award.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

1+1=11
pianowolfi
PS Gold Member
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5655


« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2009, 09:24:09 PM »


Argh I hate this thread  Angry

Gould wins for me. He also gets my 'most overrated pianist' award.

Q.E.D.  Roll Eyes
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
weissenberg2
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 579


« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2009, 09:46:30 PM »

Q.E.D.  Roll Eyes

HuhHuh??
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

"A true friend is one who likes you despite your achievements." - Arnold Bennett
pianowolfi
PS Gold Member
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5655


« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2009, 09:57:12 PM »

HuhHuh??

Quod erat demonstrandum=which was to be demonstrated.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
weissenberg2
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 579


« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2009, 01:02:11 AM »

Why exactly are people calling Gould a jerk?


Lugansky seems like a douche bag.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

"A true friend is one who likes you despite your achievements." - Arnold Bennett
antichrist
PS Silver Member
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 165


« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2009, 12:22:26 PM »

Gould for his Chopin-Bach Sonata no.3
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
samjohnson
PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 37


« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2009, 05:03:22 PM »

Gould for his Chopin-Bach Sonata no.3

I know!  The way he plays that, it seems as though he is trying to insult and degrade the music, as if to say "see, it's not really that good!"

Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
john11inc
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 550


« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2009, 04:21:02 AM »

Katsaris, Aimard, Jarrett, Richter.


Also, randomly, Hamelin's now ex-wife, Jodi Applebaum.  I got in a confrontation with her to the extent that, by the end of it, she was threatening to call the police.  She's a serious cunt.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

If this work is so threatening, it is not because it's simply strange, but competent, rigorously argued and carrying conviction.

-Jacques Derrida


http://www.youtube.com/user/john11inch
samjohnson
PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 37


« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2009, 05:24:35 AM »

Katsaris, Aimard, Jarrett, Richter.


Also, randomly, Hamelin's now ex-wife, Jodi Applebaum.  I got in a confrontation with her to the extent that, by the end of it, she was threatening to call the police.  She's a serious cunt.

Given what I know about the parties involved, perhaps she would be more justified making the same remark about you.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
retrouvailles
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 2851


« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2009, 05:25:49 AM »

Also, randomly, Hamelin's now ex-wife, Jodi Applebaum.  I got in a confrontation with her to the extent that, by the end of it, she was threatening to call the police.  She's a serious cunt.

Wow, interesting. How did you meet her? She isn't a pianist, btw. She's a vocalist.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
tea cup
PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 84


« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2009, 05:42:33 AM »

Katsaris, Aimard, Jarrett, Richter.


Also, randomly, Hamelin's now ex-wife, Jodi Applebaum.  I got in a confrontation with her to the extent that, by the end of it, she was threatening to call the police.  She's a serious cunt.

Why Richter? He seems terribly nice, judging from the "notebooks and conversations" and the documentary.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged
gep
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 701


« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2009, 08:29:31 AM »

Also, randomly, Hamelin's now ex-wife, Jodi Applebaum.  I got in a confrontation with her to the extent that, by the end of it, she was threatening to call the police.  She's a serious cunt.
Considering the bits I've seen from you or any of your incarnations insofar as I have found out to be you too (it's a bit hard to follow up on the "kicked out once more, got back on another name",  even if I desired to do so), I'd say she must be a very placid person to just threaten to call merely the police.... To be called a cunt by someone like you must be coinsidered a compliment to her personality...
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

In the long run, any words about music are less important than the music. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not worth talking to (Shostakovich)
gyzzzmo
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 2210


« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2009, 11:40:07 AM »

Katsaris, Aimard, Jarrett, Richter.


Also, randomly, Hamelin's now ex-wife, Jodi Applebaum.  I got in a confrontation with her to the extent that, by the end of it, she was threatening to call the police.  She's a serious cunt.

I dont know about her ofcourse, but seeing your way of replying and behaviour, she might actually have had a good reason to call the police.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

1+1=11
john11inc
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 550


« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2009, 11:51:33 AM »

Wow, interesting. How did you meet her? She isn't a pianist, btw. She's a vocalist.

This was a couple years ago.  Another section of Roslavets' Sonata No. 6 had been discovered at that time and I informed Hamelin via e-mail, and he told me he really wanted to see it.  Although suddenly when I tried to respond the e-mail I had been talking to him before was now sending back "mailer daemon", so I called him up at his Philadelphia residence, and she answered the phone.  She kept asking me a bunch of weird questions about how I knew him, why I wanted to talk to him, all this sorta stuff, so I was like, "w/e, just give me your fax number."  She refused, being some paranoid pregnant dog, so I tried to call back later, hoping he would answer the phone, but it was her again, and she threw a psycho fit for calling them back, telling me to never call again and if I did she'd call the police and all this garbage D:  It was pretty funny; Ryan was on the line at the time.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

If this work is so threatening, it is not because it's simply strange, but competent, rigorously argued and carrying conviction.

-Jacques Derrida


http://www.youtube.com/user/john11inch
gep
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 701


« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2009, 01:12:53 PM »

At least I'm happy that another bit of Roslavets has been found, both he and Mossolov suffered greatly under the Socialshit Realism disaster. If one compares the later works of either with their earlier ones one can only get sad, even when those later works aren't bad. Compare Roslavets' Violin Concerti with his early Chamber Symphony, or Mosolov's Symphony in E with his early Piano Sonatas or Piano Trio's.
That said, a piece like Mosolov's Turkmenian Nights (apparently an "ethnic" piece trying to please the power that were) in the right hands can be an exhillarating experience, as I recently found out to my pleasure.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

In the long run, any words about music are less important than the music. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not worth talking to (Shostakovich)
furtwaengler
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 1323


« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2009, 05:30:43 PM »

Wow. Being famous must be great! You have no privacy, and people who have no experience with you make definitive statements on your character...It's a dream! 
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

Don't let anyone know where you tie your goat.
john11inc
PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 550


« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2009, 08:10:56 AM »

Wow. Being famous must be great! You have no privacy, and people who have no experience with you make definitive statements on your character...It's a dream! 

I have experience with everyone I listed except Richter, and Richter is pretty much widely acknowledged as a douche.
Do you find this post useful? Yes / No
Logged

If this work is so threatening, it is not because it's simply strange, but competent, rigorously argued and carrying conviction.

-Jacques Derrida


http://www.youtube.com/user/john11inch
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Print  


Need more info or help?


Search pianostreet.com - the web's largest resource of information about piano playing:



 
Jump to:  


Most popular classical piano composers:
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!

o