competitions are rigged?

[lau]

My teacher was talking about how a lot of competitions already have a pre-determind winner range before anybody even starts to play. I think he said something about like who their teacher is and something about politics being involved or something. this seems very unfair. I'm pretty sure this explains why I didn't make it into the state fair talent show and i auditioned the past 2 years.

[mikey6]

:cough: Kammerling :cough:

[prongated]

...state fair talent show? Doesn't sound like a piano competition

[prongated]

:cough: Kammerling :cough:

:cough: Vardi :cough:

[lau]

i don't get the cough jokes. are they even jokes? are they piano competitions that are cheap??

[etudes]

i don't get the cough jokes. are they even jokes? are they piano competitions that are cheap??

those are the name of famous (mafia) prof. Karl Heinz Kämmerling and Arie Vardi
you can put Dorenski,Soriano,Paleczni as well..

[amelialw]

it depends which piano competition and where. The competitions here in canada aren't like that.

And you have to face the facts that certainly those famous teachers have better students who play excellently,this is so common.

[pianistimo]

at least you don't die.  look at what happened in the indy 500.   i'm not saying it was rigge d- but - whew!  you just make one wrong move and everyone goes with you.  what if...when you find out you're losing (now, don't take this the wrong way) you pour gasoline around the stage and ...  nevermind.  it's not that important.  there's always another competition (which might take up the second life savings - after you spent the first on the first competition).

as i see it - compete with yourself.  you'll always be satisfied that way - if you hold high enough standards for yourself.  and, look what happens sometimes to the winners.  they become complacent and the second and third place winners start passing them up in real life. real life is much more important than 2 weeks somewhere in russia.  (or is it)?  i want to just ATTEND the tchaikovsky competition.  once in my life.  can someone just take me along?  the van cliburn is too predictable.

ps you gotta know barry douglas had to be pretty convincing to those russians to let the prize go to him.

[opus10no2]

You don't say.

[pianistimo]

tell us more about the 'mafia.'  we want to know more.

[counterpoint]

tell us more about the 'mafia.'  we want to know more.

agreed 

[prongated]

Soriano

...really? I know he doesn't teach much these days and quite often baulk out of masterclasses/festivals...and (on a sidenote) he's an amazing pianist (and teacher)...he's coming to Australia to adjudicate in the Lev Vlassenko competition...he's also giving a recital, which I'm very interested to attend...

I know of a student of his who was very successful in international piano competitions, but...he is good...deserves to win them. That is not to say the others in those competitions don't, but there are just so many good pianists out there that picking the winner often (must) comes down to judges' discretion, preference, etc. (and sometimes powerplay).

...so, is he really...?

[mikey6]

Lev Vlassenko competition.

Another one

[lagin]

it depends which piano competition and where. The competitions here in canada aren't like that.

And you have to face the facts that certainly those famous teachers have better students who play excellently,this is so common.

I certainly beg to differ there!  About them not being like that in Canada, I mean. 

[prongated]

Another one

...oh yeah...year 2003 really showed that up...check out how many students of the Vlassenkos there were in the 1st round, then compare with 2nd round...I think that's the only year where none of the Vlassenkos were in the jury...but of course, they still did the pre-selections...

[thalberg]

A friend of mine who studied with an extremely famous teacher told me that her teacher pulled strings to get her into Van Cliburn.  She also said that the jury calls her teacher before they announce results.

A friend was also at the Chopin competition in Warsaw and said it was so political it was crazy.  They gave a bunch of people scores of zero out of a hundred.  Seriously, who deserves a 0/100?  One girl who got a zero gave a gorgeous performance and only missed 2 notes in the whole first round.

[thalberg]

:cough: Vardi :cough:

I have another friend who studied with Vardi.  He liked Vardi, said he was nice.  And an amazing teacher.

[mikey6]

I've heard good things about Vardi - I tried to get a lesson with him, I was told he was in Salzburg but no one knew of him!

[prongated]

They gave a bunch of people scores of zero out of a hundred. Seriously, who deserves a 0/100? One girl who got a zero gave a gorgeous performance and only missed 2 notes in the whole first round.

...did the jury have to show to the audience how many marks they give to each contestants in the Chopin? I'd imagine they'd be more inclined to use their head a bit more if they had to...

I have another friend who studied with Vardi. He liked Vardi, said he was nice. And an amazing teacher.

...yup yup...IMO he stands as one of the very best teachers in the world in existence today. Consequently, you have to be ready for that. What I've heard is that he's away quite often and he won't hear the same piece for more than a lesson. So essentially, unless you're up to doing piano at an artist level, Vardi is not a good choice of teacher - but then, he'd probably not take that person anyway haha ><

[counterpoint]

he won't hear the same piece for more than a lesson.

And that's what you call "one of the very best teachers in the world"...?     

[Kassaa]

_{Aill meek joe an offer joe kant refjoes}

[faulty_damper]

A friend was also at the Chopin competition in Warsaw and said it was so political it was crazy.  They gave a bunch of people scores of zero out of a hundred.  Seriously, who deserves a 0/100?  One girl who got a zero gave a gorgeous performance and only missed 2 notes in the whole first round.

Because it's scored this way, this gaurantees that those with 0 do not go to the next round.  Scoring low is actually quite common.  Jury members probably found these pianists to be the most original in their music making and thus found them most offensive to the written text - they were eliminated first.  This leads to quite interesting results as you will often have pianists who undeservingly go on to the next round with mediocre performances only so the jury would eliminate them in the next round.  But how do you whittle down 90 participants to 12?

[counterpoint]

Because it's scored this way, this gaurantees that those with 0 do not go to the next round.  Scoring low is actually quite common.  Jury members probably found these pianists to be the most original in their music making and thus found them most offensive to the written text - they were eliminated first.  This leads to quite interesting results as you will often have pianists who undeservingly go on to the next round with mediocre performances only so the jury would eliminate them in the next round.  But how do you whittle down 90 participants to 12?

That's interesting!

So you say, the best (=most interesting) candidates are disqualified first... 

Pogorelich was one of them!

[Kassaa]

That's interesting!

So you say, the best (=most interesting) candidates are disqualified first... 

Pogorelich was one of them!

Reason for the most interesting to leave first is because often you either love them or hate them, and the more boring pianists can't really do anything wrong so they get to the next round.

[soliloquy]

Chopin Competition operates on an entirely different field of idiocy.  Anyone who has an even mildly original or personal interpretation will most-likely be disqualified.  They look for only note-perfect, right-off-the-page MIDI performances.  Slight tempo variations, tw or three wrong notes in a round, gone.

[mikey6]

And that's what you call "one of the very best teachers in the world"...?     

Same with Chris Elton - once you reach a certain level, the teacher tells you what's wrong with it and you're expected to fix it - problem?

[thalberg]

Same with Chris Elton - once you reach a certain level, the teacher tells you what's wrong with it and you're expected to fix it - problem?

This friend who studied with Vardi said he didn't even bring something in for Vardi to hear it until he himself had done everything he could with it--memorized and as polished as possible.  There were no weekly lessons.  When something was ready, he called and scheduled a lesson.  I like that idea--so many of my weekly lessons were a waste, I thought.

[lau]

that's a good idea..

[counterpoint]

Same with Chris Elton - once you reach a certain level, the teacher tells you what's wrong with it and you're expected to fix it - problem?

It's very arrogant against the student, it's arrogant against the music, and it's arrogant against the composer. But if people like to be treated like that - it's their problem, not mine. 

You can't fix a musical interpretation like you would fix a washing machine.

[mikey6]

It's very arrogant against the student, it's arrogant against the music, and it's arrogant against the composer. But if people like to be treated like that - it's their problem, not mine. 

You can't fix a musical interpretation like you would fix a washing machine.

How? If you're at an advanced enough stage in your career, and the teacher has told you what to fix....ok, work at, what's the problem? How is it anyone else's problem? They are the ones that have accepted that's how some teachers teach, otherwise they would change.

[faulty_damper]

How? If you're at an advanced enough stage in your career, and the teacher has told you what to fix....ok, work at, what's the problem? How is it anyone else's problem? They are the ones that have accepted that's how some teachers teach, otherwise they would change.

This is funny.  So who were the teachers who taught this student to get to such a level to be accepted by this "excellent" teacher when clearly this superb teacher doesn't actually teach how to play the piano...?

One mindset that should addressed is the social connection of having relationships with those who have influence.  In many cases, it doesn't matter if this teacher is actually a good piano teacher or not (usually not) - it just matters that he or she is highly regarded within his community that can exert influence.  Just being this teacher's student clearly opens up doors that would normally be hidden and when you consider how competitive it is in the competition circuit, you must not ignore the facts that famous teachers exert a great amount of influence especially if these teachers are career jury members.

[prongated]

This is funny. So who were the teachers who taught this student to get to such a level to be accepted by this "excellent" teacher when clearly this superb teacher doesn't actually teach how to play the piano...?

...exactly. Many can teach how to play the piano very well. Barely anyone can lead those students to become an outstanding musician.

Vardi is one of those who shows the final stepping stones toward becoming a professional musician. Consequently, you have to be ready for it. If you're not, he won't be of help.

...it's a bit hard to describe such experience unless you are around that position yourself, or have known anyone who are there.

[sharon_f]

THIS POST HAS BEEN REVISED.

**** SEE POST BELOW*************


I sat in on a masterclass of (name withheld)  last year.

Most of the class was "about him". He did quite a lot of playing and reminiscing and was very charming and amusing. However, I don't think any of the students actually played more that a page or two. He seemed to like the pretty female students the most.
 
And, for some unknown reason, he absolutely destroyed one of the best players there. I don't think he let the kid play more than 2 measures and went on and on about how he needed to do Brahms exercises for his technique. (It was quite ugly.)

*******SEE MY POST BELOW**********************

 

[amelialw]

but sometimes teachers pick on the best students intentionally

[ultraviolet]

I sat in on a masterclass of Vardi's last year.

Most of the class was "about him". He did quite a lot of playing and reminiscing and was very charming and amusing. However, I don't think any of the students actually played more that a page or two. He seemed to like the pretty female students the most.
 
And, for some unknown reason, he absolutely destroyed one of the best players there. I don't think he let the kid play more than 2 measures and went on and on about how he needed to do Brahms exercises for his technique. (It was quite ugly.
 

Oh that poor student!!  How could a famous person use their talent and renown to hurt someone?  Besides, it never ceases to amaze me how many people haven't gotten control of their libido by the time they start teaching.  It should be a prerequisite--part of the job interview "do you treat attractive students better?"  "could you ever see yourself coming on to a student?"  Seriously, I wish they could detect that in a urine test or something.

[sharon_f]

Sh*****t!!!!! I am so sorry and I apologize to everyone on this forum for my absolutely mindless post.

I guess it must be this terrible cold I have and all the medication I've been taking, but I did not mean Ari Vardi when I was writing my post. I have never attended a masterclass by Mr. Vardi and I have only heard wonderful things of him. The pianist I was referring to has a name very, very similar to his and now that I'm thinking of it...I really should not be mentioning names at all.

So apologies to everyone here and most especially to Mr. Vardi.

(I would have deleted my post in full, but since it was quoted I realized I should explain myself instead.)

Once again, mea culpa, mea culpa.

[maxy]

it depends which piano competition and where. The competitions here in canada aren't like that.

And you have to face the facts that certainly those famous teachers have better students who play excellently,this is so common.

 

The competitions in Canada not like that?

you may have been lucky so far, but hell, it's no better in Canada than anywhere else.

[amelialw]

but so far the students who i've heard play who have won really deserve to win...
I myself have never been in a competition, my 1st on will be in nov

[lau]

i am so proud of this topic. these side conversations really got it going.

[prongated]

i am so proud of this topic. these side conversations really got it going.

...and then there were no more...

...or maybe this can be the hotspot for competition ranting? e.g. the Lev Vlassenko competition has reached the semifinal stage. With the exception of the two non-Aus/NZ judges (and remembering this is predomonantly only for Aus/NZ pianists), the rest of the jury members have students in the competition (except Gerard Willems with just 1).

...so who got through to the semis? Of course.

[ilikepie]

but so far the students who i've heard play who have won really deserve to win...
I myself have never been in a competition, my 1st on will be in nov

What kind of competition is it? Is it a local festival something something competition, or like a selection for the nationals or something? Just curious as I also live in Canada.

[furtwaengler]

I just read this on an email list...

Sviatoslav Richter was a juror for a particular competition. His marking was quite bizarre according to his fellow jurors. If he liked the competitor, he would give him/her a "100". If not, he would record "0". This, of course, played havoc with the general marking scheme! After being consulted and reprimanded for this, Richter proceeded to give *everyone* a "40".

[prongated]

I just read this on an email list...

...sounds quite similar to Charles Rosen's...so I suppose it's just the way it is with international competitions of such standing...