Future of aging pianist . . .

[alzado]

I'm 66 now and still take a weekly half-hour lesson.

My teacher has asked me about my goals.  As far as improvement goes, I sometimes think my best goal is just to hang onto whatever capability I currently have.  It seems unreasonable to get that much better -- I am just not sure I have the physical capability for it.  For one thing -- speed.  I am not too great on fast runs now, and expect I will not be improving in this arena. 

Some marginal improvement might be possible . . . I DO think I read sheet music quite a bit better than I did a couple of years ago, probably because "practice makes perfect" and you "use it or you lose it."

My hands, eyes, and noodle are still pretty good.  I suspect that playing a grand an hour a day does a lot for the hands (and arms, of course), and for the noodle.  My former teacher said that lots of piano keeps arthritis at bay. 

Anyone else who is "on the downhill leg" have any comments on goals?

Artur Rubinstein kept playing well into his 80's.  Ditto for Schnabel and others.  How do they do it?

[knabe31]

I too, am an older pianist. I started lessons again about 1.5 yrs ago after a long break (30 years). At this point in life I am not looking to become a concert pianist but, do love the classics and want to play them to the best of my ability. I guess the only one that can define that is me!! I take a weekly lesson from a wonderful teacher and she has helped me discover things in the music that I never knew were there. It has been a true awakening for me and my playing has improved  tremendously over the last year or so. I am enjoying the lessons and the practice and plan on continuing as long as physically and mentally possible. I guess my best advice is to enjoy what you are doing for yourself and keep going!!!!!!!!!

[ted]

I think we must keep purposefully active, both mentally and physically, inside and outside of our music. I am sixty, and my playing apparatus, including velocity, is still improving. Indeed, I have experienced what amounts to a sort of retarded adolescence of virtuosity and creativity. With age there comes also more serenity, individuation and clarity of purpose. We know who we are. We do not have to bother with competing, doing as we are told, proving ourselves or pleasing people any more, and can direct our energies solely in those directions which provide the greatest internal reward.

Personally I wouldn't give breathing space to the notion that you are incapable of improvement. For a start, it is setting an unconscious directive, and unconscious directives tend to become conscious realities. If you set a memetic imperative in your mind about being on a "downhill leg", or convince yourself that "it seems unreasonable to get much better " (Why ?) ,then that is precisely where you will go. Unless you have some underlying medical issue, I see no reason why your finger dexterity should deteriorate. Have you tried pushing the speed a bit ? As long as you feel no actual pain or other injury in consequence, there is absolutely no reason to cease pushing boundaries. 

How do you know that your supposed inability to play fast is correlated to your age at all ? Why couldn't it be that you have simply inculcated some minor actions over the years whose cumulative effect has been to impede velocity ? That happens to younger pianists. From what I read on forums and elsewhere, thousands of young players have much worse problems and injuries. It is easy to blame anything on one's age regardless of whether or not a connection exists.

[ahinton]

I know that it's not quite the same thing as playing, but if Elliott Carter can step up his creative output to the almost alarming extent that he has done since completing his Horn Concerto earlier this year, as he approaches the age of 99, then where's the problem for the rest of us?...

Best,

Alistair

[faulty_damper]

I'm 66 now and still take a weekly half-hour lesson.

My teacher has asked me about my goals.  As far as improvement goes, I sometimes think my best goal is just to hang onto whatever capability I currently have.  It seems unreasonable to get that much better -- I am just not sure I have the physical capability for it.  For one thing -- speed.  I am not too great on fast runs now, and expect I will not be improving in this arena. 

Speed is an issue with musicular development and conditioning.  At your age, your body probably isn't  putting out as much growth hormones as it used to when you were younger.  These hormones are absolutely necessary as you won't develop necessary muscular conditioning without it. 
Speed is also an issue with the nerves.  It's quite possible that your nerves aren't as conditioned to play fast because you haven't been playing fast.  Most instrumentalists don't start out with the required nerves or muscular ability; they must spend time to develop it.

Also, playing the piano isn't very physically strenuous.  By late age, I think most pianists would still have most of their ability as when they were young.  The exeptions to this would be the pianists who had a less than perfect technique like many pasts pianists but they usually injured themselves and thus ended their careers.

[penguinlover]

I am an older pianist too, I am in my fifties.  I find that I am improving, but that is due to my increased practice time now that the kids are in college.  I would love to take lessons again, maybe not regular ones, just  "coaching sessions" to check my technique and to weed out any bad habits I may have developed.  I am sure I have picked up some by not being accountable to a teacher.  Anyway, I hope to continue to improve.  I know I will never become a concert pianist, but I would like to become as good as I can get.  I love teaching the piano too, so I must continue to learn in order to be the best teacher I can be.

[alzado]

One good thing about taking a short lesson every week is that it requires the student to have "piece X" prepared by  . . .  say, Monday at 4:00 p.m.

Knowing the lesson is fast coming up and that the material is still a bit rough around the edges  . . .  these considerations drive more focused practice.

I had no lessons for about 6 weeks due to a teacher's illness.  After about three weeks of this downtime, while I continued to play, the effort was haphazard and unfocused, with nothing really brought to any level of polish. 

I am all for gifted piano teachers, don't get me wrong.  But even a mediocre teacher can be a sharp critic, and can drive the student to put in the practice time in a focused way.

For the reasons I've given, I would encourage penguinlover to try signing up for a few lessons . . . .

Thanks for the replies -- best to all --

[gerry]

Interesting thread here. I'm 63 and since I retired have been able to spend many hours per day at the piano. I stopped formal lessons after college and went on to an unrelated business career. However I kept my technique alive and improving over the years by practicing sporadically and working on new pieces plus I have always had accompaniment gigs. Because I was an early bloomer (played remarkable well as a child) I took it for granted and didn't apply myself diligently as a youth and developed lazy technique habits to get around difficult passages, etc. I find now that I'm retired, I'm spending 4-5 hours at the piano mostly at night and am so mentally focused on correct fingering, revisiting Czerny, etc. that I'm improving leaps and bounds. There simply is no comparison between how I played 2 years ago and now. The only drawback is that I look back and regret that I didn't apply myself as diligently in my youth - I just didn't have that competitive nature among other things. But I have to look at it realistically, we mature in different ways and I just wasn't mentally ready at that time to put the importance on technique that I am able to do now. Believe me when I say, barring any serious  physical limitations, it is entirely possible for senior citizens to improve in every way but it won't happen casually - you have to devote several hours a day if you're serious about improving. I'm playing things easily now I simply couldn't get my hands around a few years ago. The only problem that comes with age is a sense of isolation - I play my heart out but there's no one to hear (the tree that falls in the forest). At this point I would dearly love an advanced ear to hear and observe me periodically but where are the teachers of merit that take on a 63-year-old?

[lazlo]

Just think of Mieczysław Horszowski who was performing until shortly before his death at about 101. Made some of the greatest recordings ever of mozart and chopin when he was in his late 90's.

[penguinlover]

Man Gerry,  you've described my life (minus a few years).  I hope to keep improving.  I think any teacher worth their salt will take on a senior citizen (boy that hurts to say).  Maybe try a local Jr. College.  I am going to look at a music director of a local church.  I know she majored in piano at the university.  Hopefully she won't charge me my entire salary for a lesson or two.

[alzado]

Gerry writes, The only problem that comes with age is a sense of isolation - I play my heart out but there's no one to hear

------------

Get a cat.  Our two cats are wonderful listeners.  The little gray cat, especially.

She perches on the back of the sofa and listens without distraction.  She will stay there as long as I keep playing.

Cats have much better hearing than we do anyway.  So wake up!

[gerry]

Gerry writes, The only problem that comes with age is a sense of isolation - I play my heart out but there's no one to hear

------------

Get a cat.  Our two cats are wonderful listeners.  The little gray cat, especially.

She perches on the back of the sofa and listens without distraction.  She will stay there as long as I keep playing.

Cats have much better hearing than we do anyway.  So wake up!

I have a precious little Maine Coon cat who's favorite perch is on the lid of the grand. Not quite sure what you mean by "wake up"

[gerry]

Rubio - he listens but is unable to make any helpful suggestions beyond hopping off and fleeing in terror.

[sassafras]

At 54 and on disability I have 8 cats (I live on a 235 acre farm) and have improved my playing until recent injury and pain in right hand, forearm and shoulder. I play a lot better now than I did in April, after about 400 hours of practice....maybe too much practice and work on velocity caused the current pain???

[thalberg]

Though you are a senior citizen, there are concrete technical things you can learn that will improve your technique through wisdom even more than through physical effort.  That sort of improvement is great.  Get some technique books off amazon.  You will love it.

[ramseytheii]

The pianists that played into their octogenarian years, like Rubinstein or Cherkassky (two shining examples) had distilled their techniques to the absolute minimum of movement.  Cherkassky in particular could still, in his eighties, give a concert at the Proms of the Prokofiev 2nd and Rachmaninoff 3rd in one concert.  Rubinstein probably could have played like he was when he was a bit younger had he not gone blind.

I think essentially, they were able to condense through a lifetime of experience the amount of movement necessary, they cut out everything extra, and they kept their minds sharp through different ways - performance, speaking in different languages, word puzzles, studying music, whatever else they did.

Perhaps not too much emphasis in thsi situation should be placed on goals.  I wouldn't, if I were you, say that you give up attempting to improve, or even put limits on yourself; but I would try the utmost to find the joy in the search to improvement.

Walter Ramsey

[rachfan]

Hi alzado,

The topic you raise is very interesting to me, so this will be a longer response.

I'm approaching 63, so empathize with your concerns.  A brief background: In my first 10 years of study in my youth, I was fortunate to work with an excellent teacher, a graduate of New England Conservatory of Music, and student of Miklos Schwalb, David Barnett, and Albion Metcalf.  I got all the fundamentals from her and a good start on repertoire.  Back then I also attained the Paderewski Gold Medal, was a finalist in a regional competition, and did a senior solo recital.  So I showed some promise in my early years. 

But once I was at university though, aside from doing a few small recitals for friends, some accompaning, squeezing in some music courses outside of my major, and attending Tanglewood concerts in the summers, I did very little with piano during those four years.  After graduation, I entered the corporate world and was in the traces there for 40 years. 

My three degrees are not in music.  My only music credential is a high school diploma from the National Guild of Piano Teachers.  That's it.  In retrospect, I wish I had attended conservatory, but I lacked confidence in myself and my capabilities as a kid, so made a more practical decision to go into something less risky and more remunerative.  When I was around 30 I bought a used Steinway M (5'7"), but just played around with it in the most undiciplined manner imaginable. Piano wise, that was a wasted decade.

Then when I was around 40, I sold the 1924 Steinway, bought the new and larger Baldwin and studied for another 7 years with a wonderful artist-teacher with a Master's in Piano Performance from Boston University, and who was a long-time student of Anthony di Bonaventura.  I learned many fine points from him in performance art, explored repertoire of my choosing, and had many spirited discussions on interpretation.  So all of my training was through private study only.  Of course, the primary purpose of piano teachers is to teach the student to teach himself, and those two wonderful teachers succeeded on that score.  So now I study completely on my own.  I'd probably benefit from an occasional session with a piano coach, but have not sought one out, although there are several excellent ones in my area.

Like you, I'm not the greatest with velocity, and certainly no speed demon.  With me, it has nothing to do with age.  As a kid, when I played fast music, it was always a battle for control and evenness for me.  What I've simply done is focus instead on the lyrical side of the repertoire rather than works in very fast tempo.  While I'm fairly well-rounded, I study what I wish to (for me, mostly Romantic, Impressionistic, and Neo-Romantic music mostly).  Given the vastness of the piano literature, if you live to be 95, life is way too short.  So if I don't play Bach anymore or modern music, it doesn't keep me awake at night.   

Do I worry about aging interfering physically with my piano playing?  Not too much, although I gravitate more to miniatures and character pieces now rather than "atheletic" works.  I do take good care of myself--take vitimins, watch my diet, do four-mile walks in good weather, press weights in cold weather, and get routine screening tests on the medical side.  Learning music during practice is also an excellent activity for keeping the brain highly engaged, which helps avoid dementia, ha-ha!  I'm sure I probably have the same degree of osteoarthritis as others my age.  It's no fun to get older.

Although I've never mentioned it before in these forums, I have tenosynovitis (trigger finger) in the 5th finger of my right hand--the most important finger in playing the piano.  I've had two cortisone shots in the finger in the past, but don't dare to get more, as it can damage the tendon.  The real solution is surgery--which I keep putting off.  This makes it harder for me to voice the tops of sequential melodic chords, for example.  That handicap notwithstanding, I plan on refining my pianistic art, such as it is, as long as I can.

For me it's very important to look to the future too.  I just had my 1983 Baldwin L grand (6'3") partially rebuilt, and love the result--so now it should take me into my 90s as I see it.  Also, I keep at hand a repertoire "to do", and chip away at that.  Unfortunately, my wife of 40 years dislikes piano, practicing, and serious music, so my practice time is probably much more limited than yours.   To compensate, my practice routine (when she's away doing errands) is very planned and efficient.  My "warm-up" is all scales major and minor in the circle of fifths, or sometimes the arpeggios.  I try to have a difficult piece paired with an easier one as a counterbalance.  I avoid works over 10 pages, as I simply cannot do them justice with my limited practice time.  During practice I listen carefully to everything I do, mentally comparing it with my musical intent, do intensive work with problem sections, and consciously develop my interpretation as I move forward with a piece.  I seldom listen to recordings, preferring to produce my own sound and distinctive renditions on which I can put my own stamp. 

alzado, if you're interested, you might go to the first page of the Audition Room here at PianoStreet.  Look for the Bortkiewicz Impromptu Op. 24, No. 3, "Eros" played by RachFan (me).  This is an athletic bravura piece that I posted and updated recently.  From the first time I heard it, I loved it and couldn't resist learning it, which I did quickly.  Will power is everything in overcoming difficulties, including those of aging.  If nothing else, this performance shows that when it comes to playing piano, we seniors can still "get it together".  As I say, I generally do short character pieces, but some of the members here want to hear me do a difficult piece once in a while, so this is my current effort.

I say, alzado, continue learning, practicing, and enjoying playing piano.  I know it is very central to my life as an avocation and brings me unceasing joy, and I'm quite sure it is exactly the same with you.  I hope some of this has been helpful.

   

[penguinlover]

rachfan, you're amazing!

[rachfan]

Thanks, penguin!

Probably most amazing in my wordiness  !  But, yes, I deeply believe that piano, as an avocation, can be of great importance and a source of happiness and well-being to those of us who are older.

[penguinlover]

me too

[marina]

interesting thread - I am 61 and just did grade 7 AMEB and
have begun working on grade 8 and why wouldn't I? what else
is an old lady to do who lives in the australian bush

there is no doubt that the added incentive to work up to the
standard required for an exam really summons up undiscovered
resources.   ok I won't ever play liszt's transcendental etudes but
I surely do appreciate listening to "real' pianists playing
such virtuosic pieces because of my studies......never ever give up -
it's a privilege to have access to the wonderful music left to us by
the masters

[gyzzzmo]

Future of aging pianists... They die, some slowly, some quickly...




But seriously.., pianists can keep playing quite long if they dont get wrist problems or reumatic issues etc. And what they cant accomplish in quantity (of notes) they usually make up with the quality

gyzzzmo

[penguinlover]

Man, I sure hope you are right.