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Poll

Whose first movement do you prefer?

kd
4 (57.1%)
rallestar
0 (0%)
Both
0 (0%)
None, I play it better!
3 (42.9%)

Total Members Voted: 7

DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II (Read 4707 times)

Offline kd

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DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
« on: August 15, 2007, 10:04:01 AM »
I'm not fully satisfied with this, but I entered a duel and obey the Wolfi's rule, so here it comes...

EDIT: now we have two versions of the 1st movement. I've created a poll. Share your opinions and vote!

Important notice: A poster who chooses the option 'I play it better' agrees to post his own performance of the 1st movement  :)

piano sheet music of Sonata 1


Offline counterpoint

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Re: DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
«Reply #1 on: August 15, 2007, 10:29:06 AM »
Wow, that sounds funny!  :D

I like it very much. The sound of the piano fits perfectly to piece.
The sharp accents are really cool. I never heard it played like that, but I'm quite sure, Beethoven had played it this way  :D
If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline rallestar

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Re: DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
«Reply #2 on: August 15, 2007, 10:34:03 AM »
I'm surprised you took the 2nd repeat! I don't intend to in my recording. I like your playing, although it's more "accented" than mine. As for the 2nd movement well - I'll surely lose, and I'm quite embarrased about the state it's in right now.

I'll record and upload later today.

Add a poll to the topic btw  :)

Offline furtwaengler

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Re: DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
«Reply #3 on: August 15, 2007, 11:39:15 AM »
I'm surprised you took the 2nd repeat! I don't intend to in my recording.

Oh, my friend, the second repeats in early Beethoven can be quite revealing in the right hands. I learned this especially from that delightful collaboration between Miklos Perenyi and Andras Schiff in Beethoven's cello sonatas on ECM...a marvelous achievement. It was the 2nd Cello Sonata which thrilled me so, in this regard.

Perhaps when you post, I'll comment on this "duel."  :D :)
Don't let anyone know where you tie your goat.

Offline schubertiad

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Re: DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
«Reply #4 on: August 15, 2007, 06:07:15 PM »
I've just listened to the first movement, but kudos for making the deadline! How long did you spend on it? I'll wait till both recordings are in before giving my Ģ0.02...
“To achieve great things, two things are needed; a plan, and not quite enough time.” Leonard Bernstein

Offline rallestar

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Re: DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
«Reply #5 on: August 15, 2007, 07:54:17 PM »
Sorry for the wait. My internet won't let me stay on for longer than 2 minutes, but I'll keep trying to upload.

Offline rallestar

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Re: DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
«Reply #6 on: August 15, 2007, 08:05:08 PM »
My apologies for not being able to make it with the 2nd movement - I couldn't get it memorized and underestimated its difficulty. I hope I haven't wasted too much of your time - It's still a wonderful movement, and I plan to finish learning it.

I have a recording of the 1st movement though. It has many technical shortcomings, but when I get those weeded out, I think I will be happy with the result.

Without further ado, here's the first movement.

Offline kd

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Re: DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
«Reply #7 on: August 15, 2007, 08:47:27 PM »
My apologies for not being able to make it with the 2nd movement - I couldn't get it memorized and underestimated its difficulty. I hope I haven't wasted too much of your time - It's still a wonderful movement, and I plan to finish learning it.

No problem. We have the first movement, so the duel is on. When you get the 2nd movement ready, you'll post it and the duel will be continued. Don't worry, you didn't make me waste my time at all.

The poll is now open.
Don't forget to read the edit in the initial post  ;)


Offline pianistimo

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Re: DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
«Reply #8 on: August 16, 2007, 08:44:08 AM »
some of the precision that kd has is lacking in rallestar's performance - but rallestar has no extreme dynamics.  some of the sfz's in kd's sound like a knock in the jaw.  i'd prefer to hear less crash on them - for the perfection of the other parts.

both of you are talented in your own ways.  kd is flying the kite, to me, right now.  i say kd won this duel.  but, don't get complacent now!  you know rallestar shows some fortitude, too.  look what he did at the end of the exposition.  knocked the last chords over like a strike with bowling pins.

ps i also agree with kd's interpretation of the triplet sixteeths as ornamentation to the note that follows.  it sounds good that way if one is playing that speed.  if you take it 'precise' rhythmically - it just sounds flat.  this is one case where absolute following of the score takes LESS precedence than the musicality which flows from a bit of 'pairing of notes.'

i haven't worked this recently - but i am tempted to post my own sight-reading of it - as i happen to love most all the beethoven sonatas.  it wouldn't be to say mine is better - but just to play it again.  duels do inspire one to play at least.  frankly, i don't think it matters who 'wins' in the sense of any prize - because we all win by practicing.

Offline pianistimo

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Re: DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
«Reply #9 on: August 16, 2007, 09:33:29 AM »
ok.  since i'm doing this sorta spur of the moment - there's two pages at a time.  am working the second two right now:


Offline pianistimo

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Re: DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
«Reply #10 on: August 16, 2007, 09:46:24 AM »
third and fourth:


Offline pianistimo

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Re: DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
«Reply #11 on: August 16, 2007, 10:09:27 AM »
ending:

Offline schubertiad

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Re: DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
«Reply #12 on: August 16, 2007, 10:59:56 AM »
This was a very successful duel - both of you more than got through it, and I enjoyed different bits of both of them. The more technically secure rendition is obviously kd's, but there were lots of excellent bits in rallestar's, too. The rit at the end of the opening motif (about 10 seconds in) was particularly lovely. The only thing I have issue with are the grace notes, which seem to be either too slow (especially when played by the left hand) or unevenly fast.
Anyway, good job to both of you!
“To achieve great things, two things are needed; a plan, and not quite enough time.” Leonard Bernstein

Offline piano121

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Re: DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
«Reply #13 on: August 17, 2007, 02:26:16 AM »
All nice renditions. Well, kd you got good control imo. Lotīs of energy to. It just  seems way too fast. With Allegro all that fast, I would like to know what is going to be with the 4th mov ( presto)? And you run even faster on the descending scales. Try it with a metronome.  :) Just for comparison, Daniel Barenboin make this mov, in about  3:50, and you did (without the repetition) it in 3:30.   ;) Maibe it will get even more beautifull a little slower, itīs my opinion anyway.


I think some times you got it to agressive, you donīt need the Sforzando to be so heavy on the piano parts. Keep in mind that this sonata is very controled, itīs intended to be very Haydn esque. At the begining you need the LH to be  a little softer. About the descendiong scales again, I canīt see the contrast between the FF and p. I like very much the decrescendo and the subsequent crescendo part before last exposition of the theme in F.

I think pianistimo got  a nice tempo,itīs fluid, adn elegant. Not over agressive. Very beethoven like.

Offline rallestar

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Re: DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
«Reply #14 on: August 17, 2007, 05:45:18 AM »
I definitely think pianistimo's tempo is too slow, understandably since he was sightreading ofcourse, but first of all, note that the movement is in cut time. That's allegro counting 1st and 3rd beat! Second, I just feel this movement needs to be very agitated. It shouldn't be "elegant".

Offline pianistimo

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Re: DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
«Reply #15 on: August 17, 2007, 06:47:44 AM »
he?  i am a she.  and, yes - i agree - that the tempo needs to be fast - but hey, you missed the timing of measures 10-14.  you have to wait until after beat two.  ooooooh....  (just picking on you)>

the reason i agree with you on the tempo is the accent only on the first beat of the measure (at measures 2 and 4 - and elsewhere).  but, too fast will make it presto instead of allegro.  and, what do you do when you come to measures 26-27 and want to give it some kind of shaping or phrasing.  just speed through it like a milkshake in a blender?

i think these early allegros meant something different.  although you could make an equally compelling argument that those measures 26-27 and elsewhere were merely leading to a very virtuosic run on the next page.

secret:  what if...what if beethoven sped up as he went thru esp. measures 30-32?

Offline rallestar

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Re: DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
«Reply #16 on: August 17, 2007, 07:45:15 AM »
Sorry, she then  :P

You're right about 10-14, although I don't think it matters much - As someone pointed out before, they don't really have to be that metronomical.

I don't think it's impossible to shape measure 26-32 at this speed.

I really can't see the problem with this tempo. When I play it like this, and when I listen to recordings at this tempo, I feel absolutely certain that this tempo is intended.

Offline pianistimo

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Re: DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
«Reply #17 on: August 17, 2007, 05:01:16 PM »
rallestar, i think many things are open to interpretation, too - but the only thing is - i feel that the rhythm isn't so flexible as to lose an entire beat.    ;D  just giving you a hard time (as you all seem to like to give me). 

i'm kinda relaxed, too.  i mean  - if i miss a beat or a rhythm (accidentally) - who really cares.  is someone going to come and give me a ticket?  *new idea

Offline piano121

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Re: DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
«Reply #18 on: August 17, 2007, 05:23:49 PM »
I really can't see the problem with this tempo. When I play it like this, and when I listen to recordings at this tempo, I feel absolutely certain that this tempo is intended.

Then show me how fast can you do your presto.  :P Anyway, as pointed out, the Allegro in early beethoven sonatas is not suposed to be super duper fast like hell.

I think pro pianists that record it very fast do it because they have enough technique to do so, and at the same time keep prahsing, dinamics and all stuff sounding good. For students, I believe itīs better to play a little bit slower, but very even, being able to color the music, to give it nice phasing, nice dinamics. You donīt need to play it slow, just hold your horses a tiny little bit, maibe you will make it sound much nicer.  :)

I agree her tempo is a little slow, for allegro, but the character overall is very nice. She got the escence of it, just a bit faster and itīs ready to go.

Offline rallestar

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Re: DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
«Reply #19 on: August 17, 2007, 05:44:12 PM »
Then show me how fast can you do your presto.  :P Anyway, as pointed out, the Allegro in early beethoven sonatas is not suposed to be super duper fast like hell.

I think pro pianists that record it very fast do it because they have enough technique to do so, and at the same time keep prahsing, dinamics and all stuff sounding good. For students, I believe itīs better to play a little bit slower, but very even, being able to color the music, to give it nice phasing, nice dinamics. You donīt need to play it slow, just hold your horses a tiny little bit, maibe you will make it sound much nicer.  :)

I agree her tempo is a little slow, for allegro, but the character overall is very nice. She got the escence of it, just a bit faster and itīs ready to go.

We will never agree about this. That movement is intended so fast, it's allegro in cut time. It's NOT super fast, try counting along, counting on 1st and 3rd beat. That's how it's meant to be counted, and that's what the Allegro indicated.

My recording is from a duel - It is not a finished, polished performance, but when it is, I intend to have my phrasing intact at the speed I recorded.

Offline piano121

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Re: DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
«Reply #20 on: August 17, 2007, 06:17:30 PM »
We will never agree about this.

we donīt have to. Itīs about taste.

[
It is not a finished, polished performance, but when it is, I intend to have my phrasing intact at the speed I recorded.

I hope so. Get rid of those mistakes an post it when itīs ready. this is a very nice sonata after all, I am working on it, hopefully I will post the hole thing some time in the future. All the best!

Offline migamaral

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Re: DUEL: kd vs rallestar, Beethoven sonata op. 2/1, mvts I & II
«Reply #21 on: October 03, 2008, 05:13:00 PM »
I really think that kd and rallestar DO play this movement VERY VERY fast. There are almost no dinamics in both performances. I think you should hear Kempff or Brendel interpretation. They play it much slower, but much more emotional. I think that you are both missing the passion and emotional side of this sonata.