The arch of the hand

[hermesdream]

Hello everybody...

I would like to improve the position of my hands on the keyboard. It is well-known that the hands of a good pianist have to take the shape of on arch... (i.e. the base of the fingers higher than the wrist)...

How can I obtain this arch shape?

Thanks!

Quentin. (Paris, France).

[term]

 
Don't even focus on that. You'll know that everything is fine when your hands feel ok AND you can play the way you want it. Forget about the arch.
If you want to improve your hand position, this implies that a) you dont feel comfortable (solution: find a position that suits you. It's that simple, and nobody can do it for you, you have to do it on your own) or b) you actually want to improve your technique (practise, for further advice search the forum, but best is to practise^^).

i.e. the base of the fingers higher than the wrist

I  can assure you that this is neither true nor is there a rule how hand/fingers/whatever should be held.

[rc]

I second Term.  I've never found any value in thinking about anatomy in detail.  Going by feel is sufficient.  Overthinking, especially in visual terms ("it must look like this and that") is very prone to unnatural motions.

[ramseytheii]

I also agree that there is no fixed position for the relation between fingers and wrist, or at least I agree that one shouldn't obsess about it and try to achieve it from the outside, but only from the inside.  As F.M. Alexander said, there is no posture, only acture; similarly in piano-playing, there is no position, only action.

For the most effective usage of the hand, you have to be able to feel the fulcrum point in the middle of the palm at all times.  The weight you are using should always feel balanced in the middle of the palm; imagining this sensation will have the benefit of "opening" your hand and allowing your fingers to feel more independent and secure; also it will free you up to apply different touches, such as "stroking the cat" or as they said of Beethoven's touch, "dusting the keys."

Walter Ramsey

[jinfiesto]

Don't obsess over it, but there has to be some arch. All that's really required though is that the knuckles connecting the fingers to the palm are the highest point at all times. that's the cornerstone of the arch. Beyond that, is somewhat subject to personal preference and the situation.

[invictious]

To me, I just relax and place my hands on the piano. Just so long I don't feel tension and I can play things with ease and accuracy, then it's fine. I have a naturally flat hand (yes, it's always a cellists problem...:S)

(except I can't do anything with easy and accuracy since my technique is just as good as an anteater)

If you have an arch that is over-exaggerated, you could easy develop tendonitis over an extended period of time.

[counterpoint]

All that's really required though is that the knuckles connecting the fingers to the palm are the highest point at all times.

at all times   that's complete nonsense 

[zheer]

at all times   that's complete nonsense 

  True, not all the time. Generally speaking, the palm of the hands ought to remain  close to the piano keys, the fingers lengthend, and the fingertips producing musical tone. Some very young and talented pianist start-out this way.

[counterpoint]

and the fingertips producing musical tone.

It gets a bit obscure now... 

If you say, the fingertips are producing the musical tone, that's if you would say, the feet produce the movement of the bicycle. The feet do nothing, they are passive, the muscles of your legs produce the movement. Analogous the musical tone is produced by the muscles that are moving the fingers, and these muscles are in the hand and in the arm.

[zheer]

It gets a bit obscure now... 

If you say, the fingertips are producing the musical tone, that's if you would say, the feet produce the movement of the bicycle.

  Don't compare riding a bicycle with piano playing.

[term]

what he probably meant was that the fingertips only should touch the keys and that you need to really *feel* the fingertips when playing.
Or something like that 

The feet do nothing

Not true. If you move your fingers, you use every muscle, from the fingers to the hand, arms up to your chest and your back. For every movement the body does, the entirety of the body is used, because everything is linked and nothing is seperated, and if you seperate you will experience pain.
This the only reason we can impose enough pressure on the keys with those weak, small fingers. And interestingly, you will find that the apparently weakest part of the fingers (fingertips) are connected to the strongest muscles and are therefore the part with which one should touch the keys.
But actually there's no need to know that because

Going by feel is sufficient.

[counterpoint]

what he probably meant was that the fingertips only should touch the keys and that you need to really *feel* the fingertips when playing.
Or something like that 

Perhaps. But I don't feel my fingertips when playing, so I expect, I'm playing totally "wrong" 

Not true. If you move your fingers, you use every muscle, from the fingers to the hand, arms up to your chest and your back. For every movement the body does, the entirety of the body is used, because everything is linked and nothing is seperated, and if you seperate you will experience pain.

So now we're in the esoteric corner. No place for me. Have fun. Bye 

[invictious]

..............


After trying to use my 'finger tips to produce tone', all I get is this pitchless percussive smacking sound..


Am I missing something here?

[term]

So now we're in the esoteric corner.

I'm not making this up, i suffered from scoliosis so i must know. With insufficient strength of the back muscles, i was not able to really play the piano with the left hand. What are you talking about?

Am I missing something here?

You're both missing a lot, including trying to understand what is being said instead of making fun of someone.
Unfortunately, it's hard to find a source explicitly stating what i find to be common sense. I'll post one as soon as i find something. If you want, you can start researching yourself or post sources supportive of your view.
In the meantime, i suggest you learn about the difference between esotericism and human anatomy, counterpoint.
But you may as well leave the discussion. 

One more thing to clarify: When i said separated movements cause pain, this was of course related to (extensive) piano playing.

[counterpoint]

What the friends of "Alexander-Technique" (esoteric!) say to the cause of scoliosis

There may be various reasons why a spine curves to one side (scoliosis). Probably the most common pattern is where muscles are shorter on one side of the spine than the other.

This is often a matter of what feels right when doing ordinary things, like walking and sitting.

Scoliosis sufferers, when placed in a straighter alignment, almost always feel crooked. They then correct this sense of crookedness by pulling themselves back into the mis-aligned shape they are used to.

This is what Alexander Technique teachers call a “debauched kinaesthesia”. To understand this type of scoliosis, you need to know more about kinaesthesia and why it is unreliable — so unreliable that we call it “debauched”.

https://www.alexanderworks.org.uk/scoliosis.html


What wikipedia says

The cause of scoliosis is poorly understood. In the case of the most common form of scoliosis, Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis, there is a clear Mendelian inheritance but with incomplete penetrance. Various causes have been implicated, but none has consensus among scientists as the cause of scoliosis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoliosis


List of esoteric healing methods:

https://www.esoterikverzeichnis.de/esoterische_methoden.htm

[term]

Hm, i'm probably missing your point. Why are you telling me this?
My scoliosis is gone now, and i know the reason why I had it as well as the type of scoliosis I had.
I corrected my posture myself and by the way learned something about how muscles are connected and what role they play in playing the piano; With other words, i know from practical experience, went through the whole process of straightening the spine and observed the effect on my plaing. Where do you know from?

[amelialw]

if you want to achieve this arch shape just play consiously with your hands shaped that way.

I disagree with alot of these people. Having the arch shape allows you to play with more strength, it does not neccessarily produce a smacking percussion sound. You still can be expressove. I myself practise with that arch shape as my teacher said it's something that can make a great difference to my playing.

It's not nonesonse and to point out, when you play with it you do not just keep it in one position, shape it to the music and don't get overly obssesed with it.

[counterpoint]

Hm, i'm probably missing your point. Why are you telling me this?
My scoliosis is gone now, and i know the reason why I had it as well as the type of scoliosis I had.

I just wanted to show, where these theories of "body healing" come from and that it doesn't have a scientific background. That's all.

It's wonderful, that you could cure your scoliosis with whatever method, and that you found a way to play more relaxed.

This is the main point: the movements should need as little effort as possible.
In my point of view, it doesn't matter, how you hold your hand (arched or flat, high or low etc) but that is has the freedom to move in any direction without use of much muscle power.
If you're convinced, your backmuscles are needed to move your fingers and hands - then that is not a problem to me. But I would never tell a student to use other muscles for piano playing than the muscles of hand and arm. If at all. The danger is: when you think about using a muscle - it contracts immediately. So it's better to talk about being as relaxed as possible.

[term]

Looks like we only disagree on the theoretical aspects (which i do not consider important to know), i agree with you that it is not important how hands and fingers are held, or look like, as long as it works.
I never think about muscles contracting or arches...would be a waste of time imo. I try to stay focused on the music.

[counterpoint]

Looks like we only disagree on the theoretical aspects

cool, thats fine then 

[jinfiesto]

I don't think that it's nonsense that there always should be an arch in your hand. Certainly there are other ways to play, but the arch provides power and more importantly longevity to your playing. If you watch any of the great pianists, they all have a solid arch, given their little idiosyncrasies. Except maybe Lang Lang, who's currently staving off tendonitis due to playing with a collapsed arch all the time. So no, it's not absolutely necessary to play with an arch, but if you intend to play difficult repertoire then It's probably a good idea. It's very easy to damage your hands, and an arch safeguards against that since the shape will support itself.

[ramseytheii]

About Alexander: some of his ideas were shown to be scientifcally viable, and some obviously not.  The same is true of any charismatic person who finds solution to everyday problems.  Typically in things like this, they are ideal for people of normal body-types who don't suffer abnormal problems such as scoliosis, or some extreme debilitation.  Similarly, the founder of the Gestalt method of therapy, Frederick Perls, had a lot of scientific backing on his way with more or less normal people, but even he confessed his method was useless when it came to psychotics.

I love the idea in Alexander technique about debauched kinaesthesia, and it is an idea that has influenced my thinking alot.  It is one of the main reasons why I oppose almost all teaching from a physical point of view - if you direct a person to do something specific with their hands, elbows or arms, more often than not you create great confusion, and have the person doing something totally unrelated to what you asked.  Not only that, but the movements you are desvribing are most likely false.

Bernhard touched on this when he said you should watch what great pianists, teaching, do, not what they say, and even provided a memorable example of Liszt's teaching, where what he said about octaves (how to play them physically), was not at all what he was doing.  There we have a perfect example of debauched kinaesthesia (I also love the Victorian language.)

In short, students should know how the various parts work and work together, but they should rarely if ever be told what to do with those parts specifically. 

Walter Ramsey

[forester]

Thank goodness for Walter Ramsay-- always a voice of reason and experience on these sometimes highly volatile forums!

Anybody have any views on Alan Fraser's discussion of the arch of the hand as discussed in his book and on his DVD?

[nyquist]

...
In short, students should know how the various parts work and work together, but they should rarely if ever be told what to do with those parts specifically. 

Walter Ramsey

I have seen great things coming from teachers that emphasize physical description as far as it will go (Taubman).  Two years ago I met a fellow student who was unable to play: the C major scale was impossible for her.  She had been diagnosed with focal dystonia.   When I saw her again this past July, she was almost back to where she was before her diagnosis.  This is not the only case I know of . I have also seen wonderful technical progress in uninjured people. 

The Taubman teaching process is meticulous and obsessive and it might not be for everyone.  But I have seen it work.

nyquist

[m]

The Taubman teaching process is meticulous and obsessive and it might not be for everyone.  But I have seen it work.

Heck, even Karl Leimer once seemed to work!

[amelialw]

I have seen the difference between 2 pianist at the same concert hall. 1 played with an arch, 1 did'nt. The one who played with an arch produced a strong rich tone, on the other hand the other pianist's playing was weak.

[counterpoint]

I have seen the difference between 2 pianist at the same concert hall. 1 played with an arch, 1 did'nt. The one who played with an arch produced a strong rich tone, on the other hand the other pianist's playing was weak.

If it were that simple...     

[amelialw]

why not?

[m]

I have seen the difference between 2 pianist at the same concert hall. 1 played with an arch, 1 did'nt. The one who played with an arch produced a strong rich tone, on the other hand the other pianist's playing was weak.

I have seen the difference between 2 pianists at the same concert hall, as well. One produced a nice rich tone, and another pianist's playing was weak.
Later it turned out that the first one was left-handed and the second right-handed.

Go figure...

[alzado]

Depending on what I play, I may have a pronounced arch, or play very flat-handed.

Flat handed works for some jazz and some popular.

For fast chord work in classical, the arch is very pronounced.  I don't even consciously force myself to do it.  It's just the only way to play the particular material.

[Triton]

Look at some Jordan Rudess videos at Youtube. He has incredible technique, and he has the hand very often under his fingers.

Triton.

[lostinidlewonder]

There is rarely anything you can ever say in music that will hold up in every single situation you are faced with. However I have found that in almost all of my playing the palm of the hand must always be above the black notes. You must always feel that the black notes are closer to the hand than the white. As soon as you drop your palm below the top of the black notes then you increase your tension when black notes come in. This is a command I give to many beginner students and it usually fixes their hand form. Also always refer to the Chopin hand form as your guiding compass for hand form.

[ramseytheii]

There is rarely anything you can ever say in music that will hold up in every single situation you are faced with. However I have found that in almost all of my playing the palm of the hand must always be above the black notes. You must always feel that the black notes are closer to the hand than the white. As soon as you drop your palm below the top of the black notes then you increase your tension when black notes come in. This is a command I give to many beginner students and it usually fixes their hand form. Also always refer to the Chopin hand form as your guiding compass for hand form.

INteresting!  Thanks for relating the shape of the hand to the shape of the actual instrument, rather than describing it in abstract terms.

Walter Ramsey