Chopin Op. 10-1/10-2, not as interesting as you think

[soliloquy]

srsly

[counterpoint]

Of whom you are talking? 

[gerry]

And what do you mean by "interesting" After all, they are only Etudes - albeit with some musical value.

[soliloquy]

Of whom you are talking? 

half the forum

[counterpoint]

half the forum

 

I think, op 10-1 is interesting as a piece of music, but not as a benchmark of anything.
op 10-2 is quite uninteresting - I mean the piece, not the person 

[Nightscape]

I think they are pretty brilliant, however too much exposure to them can make you tired of them.

They are especially good if you consider some of the trash being written by other lesser composers at the same time.

[ramseytheii]

I think the time has come for a board (read: ghetto) dedicated to posts about these damned two etudes.  Would you people please go open up the Well-Tempered Clavier for a change?  Or just sit at home and read a book.

Walter Ramsey

[pianowolfi]

I think the time has come for a board (read: ghetto) dedicated to posts about these damned two etudes.  Would you people please go open up the Well-Tempered Clavier for a change?  Or just sit at home and read a book.

Walter Ramsey

  anyway, it's because they are fascinating after all.

[jinfiesto]

They are fascinating. It's amazing that chopin was able to write technical studies and still retain as much musical depth as he does. That's why people find them so interesting. 10-2 Isn't that interesting musically, but it's a beezy to play... I think that's why people find it so appealing. haha.

[franzliszt2]

The 1st to etudes are crap pieces of music by themselves or together. They are nothing...1t etude c major lots of arpeggios, no melody, repetitive, and just in general bad. Great to play though. Op10no2 chromatic scales harmonised. They are bad pieces of music

However put them into context, and they are amazing. Playing all of op10 what better way to start than with the huge opening. Then the spidery op10no2. Then no3, etc....and close with a huge C minor etude. Genius!

[cloches_de_geneve]

Chopin's etudes, starting with the op. 10 set, completely and utterly revolutionized piano technique. Compare them with the then trendy virtouso music by composers such as Henselt, Hummel, Czerny, Kalkbrenner, Moscheles, Weber, Mendelssohn etc. Chopin created something entirely new. To create his own virtuoso piano style, Liszt drew heavily from Chopin. Skrjabin and Rachmaninoff wrote fantastic music, but in terms of piano technique, they are footnotes to Chopin.

For their revolutionary role in the development of piano music the Chopin Etudes deserve as much attention as the Beethoven sonatas. If anything, they receive too little attention on this forum.

[franzliszt2]

So far I've never met anyone here who mentions the music in the etudes. Just technique. Chopin etudes are amazing music. Except a select few, but they work well on the set.

[zheer]

Chopin's etudes, starting with the op. 10 set, completely and utterly revolutionized piano technique. 

     So true, he was basically a composer for the piano.

[soliloquy]

It's amazing that chopin was able to write technical studies and still retain as much musical depth as he does.

What?

The 1st to etudes are crap pieces of music by themselves or together. They are nothing...1t etude c major lots of arpeggios, no melody, repetitive, and just in general bad.  They are bad pieces of music.

So far I've never met anyone here who mentions the music in the etudes. Just technique. Chopin etudes are amazing music.

What?

Chopin's etudes, starting with the op. 10 set, completely and utterly revolutionized piano technique.

What?

Compare them with the then trendy virtouso music by composers such as Henselt, Hummel, Czerny, Kalkbrenner, Moscheles, Weber, Mendelssohn etc.

What?

[Scriabin] wrote fantastic music, but in terms of piano technique, they are footnotes to Chopin.

What?

For their revolutionary role in the development of piano music the Chopin Etudes deserve as much attention as the Beethoven sonatas.

If anything, they receive too little attention on this forum.

What?  The?  fuckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk?

So true, he was basically a composer for the piano.

Where did you get your Ph. D.? 

[pseudopianist]

What?


What?


What?


What?


What?



What?  The?  fuckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk?


Where did you get your Ph. D.? 

*

[pianowolfi]

half the forum

pride goes before a fall.

[soliloquy]

pride goes before a fall.

A pianoforum fall?  I'm terrified.

[leonidas]

Please remind us, is there a better example in the entire repertoire of sustained arpeggios or sustained intense use of the weak fingers?

[prongated]

Please remind us, is there a better example in the entire repertoire of sustained arpeggios or sustained intense use of the weak fingers?

...since all fingers are weak, things like Feux Follets, Rach 23/9, even Schumann Toccata...

[leonidas]

By the nature of their writing, they utilise more wrist motion, and are shorter and less dexterity-intensive than the etude.

An interesting proposition would be to consider one performance of this etude as the 200 metre race, and a back-to-back double performance as the 400 metre.

Note the inevitably different conditioning and demands required of a feat of greater endurance.

[prongated]

By the nature of their writing, they utilise more wrist motion, and are shorter and less dexterity-intensive than the etude.

...have you played any of the etudes you're talking about? Be my guest: play Chopet 10/1 without wrist motion and all fingers. I don't need to know what'll happen since it's happened to me before.

[soliloquy]

By the nature of their writing, they utilise more wrist motion, and are shorter and less dexterity-intensive than the etude.

An interesting proposition would be to consider one performance of this etude as the 200 metre race, and a back-to-back double performance as the 400 metre.

Note the inevitably different conditioning and demands required of a feat of greater endurance.

Ver-Barim comme/stevie/op10no2 stupidity.  Although I'm not sure he would say something as just... I don't even want to say stupid because that's such an understatement, and "wrong" doesn't really convey the sheer amount of "wrongness", so I will go with "*** retardedly, oh my god how is anyone that dumb, what the hell were you thinking idiotic/stupid/retarded/incorrect/wrong/not smart/not making sense", as "they are not as long".  Are we comparing Mei-Ting Sun's Feux Follet and like... jeeze... Brendull-on-weed's 10-2?  But then again the depth of comme's lack of intellectual depth surprises me all the time.

Anyway, I don't even know where to start with responding to this, because most of it is so gaping in logic I literally do not know what to say to devalidify it, as because it is intrinsically already done.  How is 10-1 a better etude than Feux Follet because it uses arpeggios?  Feux Follet apparently uses wrist motion, so... I guess... what?  If you have to use wrist motion, the piece is not hard or musically valuable.  I guess.  I don't understand.  Anyway, in answer to the first post as to what pieces in the repertoire are better for arpeggios and weak fingers, they're called "studies".  Btw, does anyone know what "etude" means?  If we call something an etude instead of a study suddenly it's this musical masterpiece.  Chopin 10-1 and 10-2 are repetitive (like a study), have very little to no harmonic progression (like a study), contrived and plebeian (like a study) and are more focused on a technique than being music (like a study).  The Liszt studies are better for technique, therefore.... they're better pieces of music?  I don't know.  I guess so.


Also, this post is not so much to bash 10/1 and 10/2, but just to ask that we use the "search" key and/or keep our 10/1-10/2 questions confined to one of the 8000 threads that already exist instead of making a new one.

[m]

By the nature of their writing, they utilise more wrist motion, and are shorter and less dexterity-intensive than the etude.

An interesting proposition would be to consider one performance of this etude as the 200 metre race, and a back-to-back double performance as the 400 metre.

Note the inevitably different conditioning and demands required of a feat of greater endurance.

The style of this posting is so distinct and poverty of ideas so prominent that it leaves one wondering if the poster realizes how utterly stupid s/he looks, regardless online name changes...

[leonidas]

...have you played any of the etudes you're talking about? Be my guest: play Chopet 10/1 without wrist motion and all fingers. I don't need to know what'll happen since it's happened to me before.

Of course wrist motion is part and parcel of all piano playing, but in playing this etude completely evenly and with varied articulation - the fingers must be relied upon alot more than they are usually.

A staccato 10/1 is a wondrous thing, not using the wrist for every note, but fingerstaccato.

Even if you do not wish to perform the whole etude like this, it becomes a tool in a pianist's arsenal to be used to great effect when so desired.

[leonidas]

I don't understand. 

You take a mighty lot of words to make that clear.

The Liszt studies are better for technique, therefore.... they're better pieces of music? I don't know.

I might enjoy the Liszt etudes a little more as music, but this is no shortcoming on Chopin's part, for his form is inherently much more musically limited - and incidentally - technically benifitting.

None of the Liszt etudes have passages in a single figuration as extended as their Chopin counterparts.

The style of this posting is so distinct and poverty of ideas so prominent that it leaves one wondering if the poster realizes how utterly stupid s/he looks, regardless online name changes...

I implore you to make a better suggestion.

Is it not interesting to note that, inevitably, a double 10/2 will take longer than 2 seperate singular 10/2s.

If you can, please next time try not to look so pathetic, it's embarrasing.

[nyquist]

srsly

Next you will be telling me that I don't really like chocolate.

nyquist

[elevateme_returns]

The 1st two etudes are crap pieces of music by themselves or together. They are nothing...1t etude c major lots of arpeggios, no melody, repetitive, and just in general bad.  They are bad pieces of music.

So far I've never met anyone here who mentions the music in the etudes. Just technique. Chopin etudes are amazing music. Except a select few, but they work well on the set.

What?

thats not really fair, if you actually look at franz's post he clearly says at the end "Except a select few, but they work well on the set."

[franzliszt2]

It's a bit retarded becasue he missed my point...op10no1 and 2 are crap standing alone. AS A WHOLE SET!! they are amazing. The etudes are amazing as a set...op10 much better than 25 as a whole. Op10no7 is random, but in the set it is amazing.

I even said except a select few...meaning the 1st 2. Please come on, stop trying to be nasty about my posts randomly.

[leonidas]

I may be new here, but the smell I sense is rather distinct, reminds me of the bull farms I used to work in as a young warrior.

[m]

I may be new here...

Somehow I don't believe you. Your posts have such unmistakable style that together with your apparent ignorance in music matters and just general lack of intelligence, it is always very transparent who you are, no matter what screen name you take.

Somehow it feels that the bull farms were just about right place for you.

[elevateme_returns]

it is always very transparent who you are, no matter what screen name you take.

tell that to super666lucifer

[cmg]

Somehow I don't believe you. Your posts have such unmistakable style that together with your apparent ignorance in music matters and just general lack of intelligence, it is always very transparent who you are, no matter what screen name you take.

Somehow it feels that the bull farms were just about right place for you.

Yes, indeed, and his principal (and sole) piano teacher just died.  See her obit, and mention of our numerously-named friend, under the "Miscellaneous" thread.

[m]

Yes, indeed, and his principal (and sole) piano teacher just died.  See her obit, and mention of our numerously-named friend, under the "Miscellaneous" thread.

And apparently our "friend" hasn't logged on in a couple days. Most likely in mourning...

[soliloquy]

None of the Liszt etudes have passages in a single figuration as extended as their Chopin counterparts.

Liszt STUDIES, not Liszt ETUDES.  I thought I made that abundantly clear.

[leonidas]

Something was made abundantly clear..

They do mean the same thing, don't you know.

Liszt's are more freeform, without the restrictions of the older type of etudes.
They generally explored multiple techniques and figurations, with the aim of developing ability, and as a platform to demonstrate it.

Observing a score, Liszt's appear more difficult to a novice, whereas a more experienced pianist would know the enduring repetition of figuration in the Chopin are much more challenging, and they are the precise reason comparitive timing is so revealing in them.

Other pieces may be longer in total, but when a figuration 'switches up' as it does in many pieces, it *eases* the endurance.

I've said it before, Chopin's etudes are the most remarkable examples of strict etudes in the literature, and were I to request to hear a pianist play anything to gain an insight into their technical ability, I'd likely ask them to play the 10/1 and 10/2.

What would you ask of them? bearing in mind the qualities of skill it would reveal.

[soliloquy]

Liszt studies, as in the Liszt exercises.


Were you even aware he wrote exercises?  Jeeze comme.  And btw, did you actually get banned again or did you just decide to switch accounts?

[cloches_de_geneve]

Something was made abundantly clear..
I've said it before, Chopin's etudes are the most remarkable examples of strict etudes in the literature, and were I to request to hear a pianist play anything to gain an insight into their technical ability, I'd likely ask them to play the 10/1 and 10/2.
What would you ask of them? bearing in mind the qualities of skill it would reveal.

When Pollini won the Chopin Competition in 1960 he picked op. 25/10, op. 25/11, op. 10/1 and op. 10/10 (in this order). A candidate choosing these four chopets is either ready to be hospitalized for suicidal tendencies, or he is destined to fame and glory. As is now clear, Pollini was fit for the latter.

Because the smart and strategic Pollini picked the 4 etudes for the jury, and for the jury only, one can infer that the ways of playing these 4 etudes reveal most about a pianist's techical and musical skills.

[elevateme_returns]

Liszt STUDIES, not Liszt ETUDES.  I thought I made that abundantly clear.

whats the difference? isnt studies just english for etudes?

[leonidas]

Oh, the exercises, I didn't know anyone called them studies.

Anyway, even if the exercises are good for technique, they aren't really music.

Chopin combines music with technique, in the most exhaustively creative manner.

[elevateme_returns]

Oh, the exercises, I didn't know anyone called them studies.

Anyway, even if the exercises are good for technique, they aren't really music.

Chopin combines music with technique, in the most exhaustively creative manner.

what exercises?

[leonidas]

Liszt's, the 12 books thing.