Liszt and his use of the diminished chord

[quantum]

A musician colleague of mine (non pianist) commented on observing Liszt has a fondness for the diminished chord.  Anyone care to discuss? 

[ramseytheii]

A musician colleague of mine (non pianist) commented on observing Liszt has a fondness for the diminished chord.  Anyone care to discuss? 

I think it is a characteristic of later Romantic composers in general (I believe Berlioz said the same thing about Wagner).  Perhaps its dramatic effect was draining so they felt it needed to be inserted more and more often... but actually, for me, Liszt's music is not typified by diminished sevenths in the way that earlier Wagner, ie Fliegender Holländer or Lohengrin can be.  I think it might take a certain determined effort to notice lots of diminished sevenths in Liszt´s music, since he uses everything to such great effect.

Walter Ramsey

[pianowolfi]

I wonder if Bach didn't use the diminished chord almost as much as romantic composers.

[steve jones]

He used the diminished chord in three ways that I can think of off the top of my head:

- as a substitute for the dominant, often in tonicizing passages

- as a none functional chord

- to harmonize the chromatic scale (kind of what I mean by the above)

I think that a good work to study would be his Trascendental Etude No 10. Here he applies the chord to all of the above.

SJ

[Derek]

what about

-because it sounded cool at the time

[thalberg]

The diminished seventh chord equally divides the octave, so you can never tell what inversion it is in, and hence you cannot tell what key it belongs to.  So it's a harmonic "skeleton key" that unlocks the door to any tonal region you want.  It's ambiguity and usefulness in remote modulations make it a favorite of some composers.

[jlh]

It also wasn't used by many earlier composers because of the stigma attached to the tritone.  Diminished chords contain tritones, and tritones are the "devil's interval".  lol
If I remember correctly... 

[steve jones]

what about

-because it sounded cool at the time

Absolutely. It sounded cool when used in those ways!

Im sure more composers found ways for it to sound shite 

SJ

[indutrial]

The diminished seventh chord equally divides the octave, so you can never tell what inversion it is in, and hence you cannot tell what key it belongs to.  So it's a harmonic "skeleton key" that unlocks the door to any tonal region you want.  It's ambiguity and usefulness in remote modulations make it a favorite of some composers.

Good explanation. In terms of tonal music, the diminished seventh is amorphous. Same with the whole tone scale, which can pull to a variety of tonalities depending on how it's used.

[steve jones]

Also true of the octatonic scale.

Rimsky Korsakov used this symmetrical scales in his operas when dealing with the supernatural. He'd give the more 'worldly' characters and situations fairly diatonic themes in contrast. I guess he felt that the lack of fixed tonal center and limited familiarity within the target audience gave these chords and scales something other worldly.

Another cool example would be Stravinsky's Petrushka chord, taken again from the octatonic scale.

this cool stuff!

SJ

[ramseytheii]

Also true of the octatonic scale.

Rimsky Korsakov used this symmetrical scales in his operas when dealing with the supernatural. He'd give the more 'worldly' characters and situations fairly diatonic themes in contrast. I guess he felt that the lack of fixed tonal center and limited familiarity within the target audience gave these chords and scales something other worldly.

Another cool example would be Stravinsky's Petrushka chord, taken again from the octatonic scale.

this cool stuff!

SJ

Very important!  the octatonic scale inspired a lot of post-Lisztian composers, including Bartok, Stravinsky (also in his later music), Rachmaninoff, and others.  You can find octatonic scales hidden in Romantic harmony in Liszt, for instance in the opening cadenzas of Totentanz.

Walter Ramsey

[steve jones]

Very important!  the octatonic scale inspired a lot of post-Lisztian composers, including Bartok, Stravinsky (also in his later music), Rachmaninoff, and others.  You can find octatonic scales hidden in Romantic harmony in Liszt, for instance in the opening cadenzas of Totentanz.

Walter Ramsey

Also a VERY cool little octatonic nugget in Chopin Op 10 No 9.

I like the octatonic and whole tone collections used in this way - as moments of tonal ambiguity in otherwise tonal settings.

SJ

[jakev2.0]

Liszt had a fondness for the diminished seventh, which is why a lot of his not-so-inspired music sounds like bad silent movie music.

[stringoverstrung]

The diminished seventh chord equally divides the octave, so you can never tell what inversion it is in, and hence you cannot tell what key it belongs to.  So it's a harmonic "skeleton key" that unlocks the door to any tonal region you want.  It's ambiguity and usefulness in remote modulations make it a favorite of some composers.

Is it true to say that liszt used it very frequently and hence was one of the first to hint at atonality or is that statement a bridge too far?

[steve jones]

Is it true to say that liszt used it very frequently and hence was one of the first to hint at atonality or is that statement a bridge too far?

Liszt actually wrote an atonal piece. I read a paper once proposing that he was predicted a system of 'pantonality' over a hundred years before Schoenberg came up with serialism. Lizst's innovative use of chromaticism is, imo, without question a prelude to this, yes.

Sj

[bob3.1415926]

Do you mean Nuages Gris? I'm not sure I'd call it atonal. I do like it though.

[steve jones]

Do you mean Nuages Gris? I'm not sure I'd call it atonal. I do like it though.

No, he actually wrote a piece that was completely atonal. I cant think of the title, but it was some kind of experiment. I'll try to find it.

SJ

[steve jones]

Nuages Gris is pretty close to the line too. It sounds very impressionistic to me. Once again, Liszt preempts a significant musical development by a long shot!

SJ

[bob3.1415926]

It definitely pushes the harmonic language for its time. I think he wrote it after he'd had a fall and had been bed-bound for a few months or something.
If he did write a truly atonal piece, I'd be fascinated to hear it. I really like Liszt's later works.

[steve jones]

It definitely pushes the harmonic language for its time. I think he wrote it after he'd had a fall and had been bed-bound for a few months or something.
If he did write a truly atonal piece, I'd be fascinated to hear it. I really like Liszt's later works.

Me too! I'll have a mooch for you.

SJ

[steve jones]

Liszt - 'Bagatelle without tonality', S216a

SJ

[bob3.1415926]

Wow. Thanks. I'll check it out.

[bob3.1415926]

I found a free recording on classiccat. Just had a listen. I definitely wouldn't call it atonal. He starts in b-minor. He does try to keep changing key, so as to avoid a tonal centre, but he spends a lot of the piece in b-minor, and quite a while in d# minor. He does avoid a cadential ending, so that gives it some tonal ambiguity. I like it, but I wouldn't call it atonal. Just experimental.
What do you think of it?

[steve jones]

I think the chromaticism is enough to make it seem atonal by the standards of the day. I perceive a constantly shifting tonality rather than atonality.

That said, pantonality is what Liszt preempted I believe, meaning an a tonality in a constant state of chromatic 'flux'. I think that pretty much describes this work.

SJ