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Topic: Teaching Pitch perfect?  (Read 9724 times)

Offline thaicheow

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Teaching Pitch perfect?
on: August 20, 2007, 03:15:27 AM
Hi,
Heard that some teachers actually created method to teach pitch perfect. Is it possible to achieve? Any resource on this issue? Or the teacher just actually help to discover/develope the students, who are actually pitch perfect in nature?

Thanks.

Offline jinfiesto

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #1 on: August 20, 2007, 03:28:08 AM
Perfect pitch cannot be taught... Either you have it. Or you do not. If you have it. It can be developed and improved.

Offline amelialw

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #2 on: August 20, 2007, 05:29:15 AM
you can't teach perfect pitch...you only can teach relative pitch
J.S Bach Italian Concerto,Beethoven Sonata op.2 no.2,Mozart Sonatas K.330&333,Chopin Scherzo no.2,Etude op.10 no.12&Fantasie Impromptu

Offline futureconcertpianist

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #3 on: August 20, 2007, 07:38:56 AM
Never listen to doubt, doubt is a thing that once didnt even exist, we can do what ever we want.
We have faith and the intelligent mind to figure out how to get what we have faith in.
Did you know that you actually know everything?
The only way you can realize this is by having faith in yourself rather than in other people.
Try the following, ask yourself the questions which you would normally turn to other specialists to ask, and see what comes up.
I do this with what ever I desire to know, I draw forth knowledge which I already know and have no conscious awareness of this knowingness yet by making it conscious, via questioning myself and meditating upon the topic and seeing what metaphoric imagess come up, noting these images in my diary without analyzing the images, once everything is noted and all the subconscious has given me the information, I then make it conscious by using my smaller intellectual mind to analyze the images.
When I ask myself the question how to develop perfect pitch, I received the answer that in reality we all have dormant facilities, including perfect pitch.
It is about fine tuning your senses and using them.
Listen to actually the sound you can hear and not what you expect to hear, if you continue listening to just one note or one simple chord, at first your expected experience is what you will hear, but if you just remain aware and keep listening, you will become aware of even more subtle qualities of the note, you will hear more, and this will become part of what your conscious mind expects as it has now tuned into a new reality of awareness. From now on you will hear with this greater awareness, and at a certain point of awareness of the sound, you will hear that actually each note has a different quality, like a different colour. This can be physically explained that each note has a different pattern of harmonics above the note.
Not only awareness (mind) is important, but also how perfectly capable your body is, which if is developed it will allow your mind to gather even more awareness from your further tuned senses. So I cannot stress the importance of diet and exercize, this is the single most important thing and is the common denominator in the success of any field of endeavor.
Everyone is different and needs different foods and exercize, I personally love walking and yoga, and am on a raw vegan diet which helps purify my body with foods which havent been destroyed by the element of fire or killed any conscious life for my food.
This is what the universe gave me as an answer and I used this knowledge to develop my own perfect pitch. Everyone is different and at different levels of awareness of their own self (which is the same self we all have) and so we all need different things so I suggest you find out what the universe has in mind for your own development of perfect pitch.

Best of luck, from FCP

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #4 on: August 20, 2007, 08:00:22 AM
i agree that we often limit ourselves.  though not everyone posesses the same amount of talent, who is to stop someone from the 99% perspiration part.  and, as you say - perhaps a latent talent that noone noticed.  children are often overlooked and their innate talents dried up due to rigid structuring of education.  maybe all they need is a bit more freedom of movement?

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #5 on: August 20, 2007, 08:21:41 AM
Err...  I must seriously disagree that absolute pitch cannot be learned.  It can be learned and if it can be learned then it can be taught!

Absolute pitch is the ability to identify different pitches - the vibrations in the air.

But most people do not think in terms of the different rates of vibrations they hear; they think in terms of musical material.  As such, Happy Birthday sang using a pitch most comfortable to one person's voice can be sung by all - relative pitch - with no conscious regard that they started on Bb or C.  However, when someone pays attention to given vibrations and is then able to consciously realizes them and identify them, we have what is called perfect pitch.

Why do some people have this ability and others do not?  Maybe it's wired into the brains to consciously identify these different rates of vibrations primarily and musical content afterwards but this abilty is also conditional.

There are prerequisites to this ability: the most important is that pitches are absolute - that is, no exposure to flexible pitches.  Pitches must vibrate at a non-changing Hz (for example A above middle C = 440Hz).  If not, then having perfect pitch would be impossible and it wouldn't matter anyway and if it doesn't matter, this ability would have no need.

So if Absolute pitch is an ability that is acquired consciously, why doesn't everyone acquire it?  It depends on how people's brains assimilate information.  Do they consciously think of pitches or do they think of musical content?  Are they an instrumentalist where the pitches are fixed according to their instrument?  Let's examine the piano.

The piano is a fixed pitch instrument.  When you want to play middle C, you are not required to think how it sounds like, all you have to do is visually identify it by the relationship of the black and white keys and the middle of the keyboard.  Just depress this white key at a given velocity and voila!... I speak French!  In fact, the keyboard is perhaps the least helpful for developing this skill because playing the keyboad is primarily learned visually, then tactilely.  It wouldn't matter if you know how it sounds like before you play it if you don't know the associations between sound and keyboard geography.  (In fact, this also has interesting aspects which I'll discuss later.)

So you see, even though the piano is a fixed pitch instrument, most pianists never acquire this ability because they are not aurally conscious of it.  They are primarily visually and tactilely oriented with the piano which has led to this joke: There are musicians and then there are conductors and pianists - neither have to listen as they perform. 

Different kinds of Perfect Pitch associations
---------------------------------------------
So what about the associations of sound and keyboard geography?  What if you know how a piece sounds like right before you play it?  What if you have practiced a piece so well that it's in your aural mind and fingers?  If this is true, then you'd never play a wrong note and you'd never make a mistake and forget where you are in the piece.  This is aural memory associated with muscle memory.  If your muscles recieve a different sensation than the one you are practiced to, then you make a mistake and suddenly, you have no idea where you are in the piece and where to put your fingers.  To prevent this from ever happening is this: consciously have your aural memory associated with keyboard geography.  Once this is learned, you'll be able to improvise in your mind and be able to perform it in real time (assuming your mind isn't improvising physically virtuosic music you can't actually play. ;))

Once you've acquired this association, you can simply show this skill to others:  When you hear a pitch, you associate it with the keyboard and identify the note based on what key you have to play to make that sounds.

Another association is simply to associate letter names with the given pitches.  You hear 440 vibrations per second, you associate it with the letter 'A' and so forth.  This is aural association with naming association, much like associating a name to a face - everyone can do it.  This is why those without perfect pitch can learn it when they are taught sight-singing using fixed "do" as opposed to movebale "do" - they have associated certain pitches with sylables (names).  This may also explain why some with perfect pitch have a very difficult time identifying pitches when they are sung by classical singers - the sylabic/vowel combinations are too vast to clearly identify and are confusing especially when they open up their afterburners and vibrato kicks in. :P But I'm digressing.

---------
Absolute pitch can be developed - it's just not necessary for most people to do so and their instruments can also be of hindrance to developing it.  Developing this skill means consciously making different associations than the one you already have.  It's difficult to sew on another arm when the two you have work just fine but imagine the benefits to a pianist - 3 hands!

Offline futureconcertpianist

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #6 on: August 20, 2007, 08:22:43 AM
Yes, maybe everyone seems to not possess the same amount of talent in piano because they are talented in some known/unknown other thing which they should be doing. (A lot of students are forced by their parents to learn piano) Everyone has something which they do the best, everyone has a talent.

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #7 on: August 20, 2007, 12:00:18 PM
i agree with faculty_damper about everything except the moveable do system.  the reason being is that it implies that children understand do - to be Mid-C.  whereas - in the kodaly method 'do' changes to whatever pitch is actually being used - and the children become aware of the set 1/2 and whole step patterns that make up a scale - or the five notes they are using for a pentatonic.  it makes them flexible in their ability to sightread vocal scores or do anything that requires an understanding of intervals.  just knowing pitch doesn't help with everything!

and btw, why are you dissing conductors and pianists - of whom some have absolute pitch and great talent?  hmm.  makes me think you're a violinist first or something.

Offline nyonyo

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #8 on: August 20, 2007, 01:54:08 PM
https://perfectpitch.ucsf.edu/ppstudy.html

This study is so closed to say that perfect pitch is genetic.
I personally believe that perfect pitch is genetic. I used to teach Yamaha course for little kids. Those kids who have perfect pitch can show this ability in only one month lessons (about four hours of lesson). However, others will not have this ability until they finish the course (2 yr course).

A month ago, Franz Mohr (Horowitz piano tuner) said that many concert pianists do not have perfect pitch ability. So it is not necessary to have perfect pitch ability to play classical piano well.

Faultydamper, you do not understand that people who do not have perfect pitch, their brain cannot register the frequency. They are able to hear the frequency differences, but they cannot associate what frequency for what note...For example, if they heard 440 Hz, they cannot tell whether the frequency is for A or for E (if it is in F Major key).
The relative interval hearing can be taught and trained, unfortunately not perfect pitch.

All of you who believe that perfect pitch can be taught, please do read the scientific research by UCSF (link above). Who does not want to have perfect pitch? These pianists have dedicated their life practicing hard, I bet if they can they will spend time to train their perfect pitch ability.

Offline futureconcertpianist

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #9 on: August 20, 2007, 03:44:25 PM
nyonyo I have read many scientific studies doubting that one can learn perfect pitch, but I have also read many scientific studies showing that it is learnable.
Because I have such a will to seek out, well the doubting side didnt seem to do very much for me because it had no goal other than to doubt, so I tried the systems of those that believe it is possible and found that it is actually possible.
I disagree with many scientists in a great number of areas, scientists dont have all the answers, they are just one area of study.
Doctors told me that I would always be on high blood pressure pills, and always wear glasses and guess what? my sight has healed and my blood pressure is competely normal.
Why is this? Because I practised meditation, changed my diet to an extremely pure one, exercized, and gazed directly at the sun 10 minutes every morning as it was rising.
Oh and yes, scientists say that gazing at the sun causes blindness, oh silly doubting doctors, if they only tried it they would find that their eye sight would improve.
It is quite interesting to me the different belief systems the societies hold when actually the opposite is true.
Makes me think that the government at the top is trying to keep us ignorant by making us fear the very thing that would heal us.
Oh and also I drink sea water, they tell us that is poison, but actually it has great healing qualities.
They say it is impossible to develop a photographic memory, well I developed one especially with my piano, I had a very bad memory before and was always forgetting things at the piano, and still am in other areas of my life which I have not worked at yet.
In a word, who cares what others think is right or wrong, just concentrate on what you want and never let anyone tell you that you cant have it because YOU CAN and a way will be made even if you dont know what it is yet, trust the universe to show it to you, just focus on the end result and dont worry about the how.
It is never to late to have what you once might have had.
FCP

Offline amelialw

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #10 on: August 20, 2007, 04:46:12 PM
here's proof

Researchers have been trying to teach absolute pitch ability for more than a century,[27] and various commercial absolute-pitch training courses have been offered to the public since the early 1900s.[28] It has been shown possible to learn the naming of tones later in life, although some consider this skill not to be true absolute pitch.[29] No training method for adults has yet been shown to produce abilities comparable to naturally-occurring absolute pitch.[30]

For children aged 2-4, however, recent observations have shown a certain method of music education[31] to apparently be successful in training absolute pitch,[32] but the same method has also been shown to fail with students 5 years and older, suggesting that a developmental change in perception occurs which favors relative learning over absolute and thus supporting the theory of the "critical period" for learning absolute pitch.[33]
J.S Bach Italian Concerto,Beethoven Sonata op.2 no.2,Mozart Sonatas K.330&333,Chopin Scherzo no.2,Etude op.10 no.12&Fantasie Impromptu

Offline nyonyo

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #11 on: August 20, 2007, 05:28:19 PM
Futureconcertpianist,

Good for you that you are able to better yourself in such unusual manners. Man, you are so much different from the so called normal person.
You must be ABNORMAL. The scientists use many sample not only one samples to come up to their conclusion. You use only yourself as the sample of your study.

Unfortunately, using you as a proof of your theory is not a good way to convince others, because you are ABNORMAL. Aberration happens, but rarely, you are one of those few cases!!

Offline amelialw

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #12 on: August 20, 2007, 05:36:47 PM
It is only learnable to kids between ages 2-4
J.S Bach Italian Concerto,Beethoven Sonata op.2 no.2,Mozart Sonatas K.330&333,Chopin Scherzo no.2,Etude op.10 no.12&Fantasie Impromptu

Offline nyonyo

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #13 on: August 20, 2007, 07:48:05 PM
How do you know that it is learnable to kids between 2-4 yr old. The studies do not have enough data on this. More over one of the system, Yamaha Education, is available only to 4 yr old and up.
Based on my 12 year experience teaching Yamaha System, I found that this perfect pitch ability appear virtually instantly. As soon as they understood the relationship between the name and the frequency, they can remember right away and name the note. But those kids who are not blessed with good hearing will have problem until they are done with the course.

Offline amelialw

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #14 on: August 20, 2007, 10:15:15 PM
that's not true. Yamaha classes are available for kids aged 3 and up.
J.S Bach Italian Concerto,Beethoven Sonata op.2 no.2,Mozart Sonatas K.330&333,Chopin Scherzo no.2,Etude op.10 no.12&Fantasie Impromptu

Offline counterpoint

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #15 on: August 20, 2007, 10:27:42 PM
Who needs perfect pitch?

What for?
If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline pseudopianist

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #16 on: August 20, 2007, 10:34:25 PM
David Lucas Burge anyone?
Whisky and Messiaen

Offline nyonyo

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #17 on: August 21, 2007, 03:31:48 AM
that's not true. Yamaha classes are available for kids aged 3 and up.

What class? JMC starts at 4 yr old and YMC starts at 6 yr old. Outside this age group is not real Yamaha education system.

Offline nyonyo

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #18 on: August 21, 2007, 03:34:05 AM
Who needs perfect pitch?

What for?

Perfect pitch is invaluable asset for improvisation and also it makes easier to memorize pieces.
If there is no advantage, people will not try to attain this, unfortunately,  unattainable ability.

Offline amelialw

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #19 on: August 21, 2007, 04:49:25 AM
nope there is a yamaha class that teaches kids who are 3. I attended that class, there are others who have too.
J.S Bach Italian Concerto,Beethoven Sonata op.2 no.2,Mozart Sonatas K.330&333,Chopin Scherzo no.2,Etude op.10 no.12&Fantasie Impromptu

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #20 on: August 21, 2007, 01:43:00 PM
Perfect pitch is invaluable asset for improvisation and also it makes easier to memorize pieces.
If there is no advantage, people will not try to attain this, unfortunately,  unattainable ability.

This myth that acquiring perfect pitch is not attainable goes against the fact that people who do not have this ability can actually develop it.

This is an important concept: development.
It's usually used interchangeably with 'acquirement' but they imply entirely different understandings.  Development means there is something already there which can be enhanced - Aquirement means it's not there and it can be added.

When speaking of abilities, you cannot acquire abilities, you can only develop them.  For example, humans cannot fly and they can never develop the ability to fly - no wings to develop.  However, flight can be acquired through other means (hang-gliders, airplanes, helicopters).

Just like absolute pitch, it's an ability that is developed.  Some people are just more prone to developing it to an extent that can be recognized.  We are all capable of this ability, it's a matter of developing it.  And for most of us, it's not necessary to be developed.

Those that claim this is a "you got it or you don't" ability are only looking at a very limited amount of evidence.  Indeed, PP abilities are not widely understood which is why there are so many myths about it.  This myth walks on the same lines as the idea of child geniuses/prodigies - there is no solid evidence that supports it and we are all capable of developing the abilities of these genius children which is evidence that debunks this notion.

Offline nyonyo

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #21 on: August 21, 2007, 04:19:40 PM
nope there is a yamaha class that teaches kids who are 3. I attended that class, there are others who have too.

That class is not a Yamaha class. It was taught at Yamaha school but not a Yamaha system. This is just a way for the music school to make additional monies.

Offline nyonyo

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #22 on: August 21, 2007, 04:25:22 PM
This myth that acquiring perfect pitch is not attainable goes against the fact that people who do not have this ability can actually develop it.


Could a color blind person develop his color perception ability??? Of course not, because they do not have the ability to do that. How hard they try and practice to see color, they will not be able to see them. The same like PP thing. If a person does not have the PP gene, he or she will not be able to hear certain characteristic of the sound that makes a certain note. They could hear the change of frequency but cannot tell what it is. By the way, your analogy of flying is not a good analogy. People without PP can also use a device that can tell what note it is....What we want to have is the natural ability to recognize notes, not using a device like airplane etc.

Please note it is he not her....There is no female color blind in this case, for color blind gene is a lethal gene for a female embryo.

Those who can develop PP ability are those who originally has the PP gene (there are levels of abilities though). Unfortunately, some people have none!!!!

Offline amelialw

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #23 on: August 21, 2007, 05:48:41 PM
That class is not a Yamaha class. It was taught at Yamaha school but not a Yamaha system. This is just a way for the music school to make additional monies.
 


 ::)  I still have all my yamaha lesson books that I got from that class, if you just won't believe it, then don't. You don't need to state these things.
J.S Bach Italian Concerto,Beethoven Sonata op.2 no.2,Mozart Sonatas K.330&333,Chopin Scherzo no.2,Etude op.10 no.12&Fantasie Impromptu

Offline franzliszt2

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #24 on: August 21, 2007, 06:04:04 PM
It can't be taught. Nobody knows what it is. People who don't have it get jealous of other people who have, and claim they could have it if they wanted to make themselves feel better. They have only science to back them up, and that is still not fully proven.

Bring me one person who has fully blown perfect pitch and has not shown any sign of perfect pitch and I shall change my opinion. So far I've only met peopl who can identify notes 90 percent of the time. They are screwed when it comes to identifying keys of pieces etc...

and I am so guessing that faulty damper does not have perfect pitch? I've never met anyone with perfect pitch who developed it. They just had it. They could tell a C was a C the moment someone said that is a C. From that they could tell the keys of music as soon as they understood theory. They were never taught it.

Offline amelialw

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #25 on: August 21, 2007, 06:05:45 PM
Finally, someone who's on the same side as me and who agrees that perfect pitch can't be taught.
J.S Bach Italian Concerto,Beethoven Sonata op.2 no.2,Mozart Sonatas K.330&333,Chopin Scherzo no.2,Etude op.10 no.12&Fantasie Impromptu

Offline nyonyo

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #26 on: August 21, 2007, 06:17:29 PM
That class is not a Yamaha class. It was taught at Yamaha school but not a Yamaha system. This is just a way for the music school to make additional monies.
 


 ::)  I still have all my yamaha lesson books that I got from that class, if you just won't believe it, then don't. You don't need to state these things.

I was a Yamaha teacher for 20 years and I do know what they did. They just made up a class to capture 3 yr old kid market. That system IS NOT a Yamaha education. If you do not see that system in the official Yamaha website, you know that it is not a Yamaha system. As simple as it is.

Offline debussy symbolism

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #27 on: August 21, 2007, 06:20:37 PM
Perfect pitch is invaluable asset for improvisation and also it makes easier to memorize pieces.
If there is no advantage, people will not try to attain this, unfortunately,  unattainable ability.

Greetings

What does perfect pitch have to do with improvisation?
It can't be taught. Nobody knows what it is. People who don't have it get jealous of other people who have, and claim they could have it if they wanted to make themselves feel better. They have only science to back them up, and that is still not fully proven.





Agree 100%

Offline amelialw

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #28 on: August 21, 2007, 06:21:08 PM
here's proof and this is from the website

Courses:
Tunes For Twos (age 2)

An enriching music experience designed specifically for 2-year-olds.  In three ten-week learning modules, this course allows children to explore the world around them through music, movement and play.

Junior Music Course (ages 3 to 5)

Early childhood is the ideal time to start music lessons.  At this age, the ear is at its peak of sensitivity.  Learning music is as natural as learning to speak.  Students can begin in the Music Wonderland (age 3, 4) or Primary (age 4, 5).  The unique curriculum – up to seven years in length – is designed to give your child the best opportunity to develop basic music skills.  The creative approach centers on developing the three essential elements of pitch, harmony, and rhythm.  The Junior Music Course develops the musical child from within.

J.S Bach Italian Concerto,Beethoven Sonata op.2 no.2,Mozart Sonatas K.330&333,Chopin Scherzo no.2,Etude op.10 no.12&Fantasie Impromptu

Offline nyonyo

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #29 on: August 21, 2007, 06:33:07 PM
Greetings

What does perfect pitch have to do with improvisation?
Agree 100%

When you are improvising with others (especially in Jazz setting), you do not ask what key we are playing? You hear what they play and join the jam session. In addition, people who have perfect pitch will usually have no difficulities to play in whatever keys.

Offline nyonyo

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #30 on: August 21, 2007, 06:35:56 PM
The first two are not the Yamaha Music Education system. It is just a local method.

Key to Yamaha Courses
T42
 Tunes For Twos (age 2-3)
 
MW
 Music Wonderland (age 3-4)
 
JMC
 Junior Music Course (age 4+)
 
JSAC
 Junior Special Advanced Course (age 6+)
 
YMC
 Young Musicians Course (age 6+)
 
PC
 Piano Club (age 8+)
 
KC
 Keyboard Club (teens, adults)
 
SKC
 Seniors Keyboard Club (seniors)
 
GC
 Guitar Course (age 7+, teens, adults)
 
FC
 Flute Course (age 10+)
 
SC
 Saxophone Course (age 10+)
 
JVC
 Junior Violin Course (age 8+)
 
VC
 Violin Course (teens, adults)
 
PMC
 Popular Music Courses (teens, adults)
 

Offline nyonyo

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #31 on: August 21, 2007, 06:37:03 PM
Give the link please! (URL)


here's proof and this is from the website

Courses:
Tunes For Twos (age 2)

An enriching music experience designed specifically for 2-year-olds.  In three ten-week learning modules, this course allows children to explore the world around them through music, movement and play.

Junior Music Course (ages 3 to 5)

Early childhood is the ideal time to start music lessons.  At this age, the ear is at its peak of sensitivity.  Learning music is as natural as learning to speak.  Students can begin in the Music Wonderland (age 3, 4) or Primary (age 4, 5).  The unique curriculum – up to seven years in length – is designed to give your child the best opportunity to develop basic music skills.  The creative approach centers on developing the three essential elements of pitch, harmony, and rhythm.  The Junior Music Course develops the musical child from within.


Offline nyonyo

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #32 on: August 21, 2007, 06:41:57 PM
Yes, Amelia is correct! When I was still a Yamaha teacher (long time ago), they did not have that baby classes. Sorry for the confusion.

Offline amelialw

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #33 on: August 21, 2007, 10:26:46 PM
it's ok  ;)
J.S Bach Italian Concerto,Beethoven Sonata op.2 no.2,Mozart Sonatas K.330&333,Chopin Scherzo no.2,Etude op.10 no.12&Fantasie Impromptu

Offline debussy symbolism

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #34 on: August 21, 2007, 10:42:43 PM
When you are improvising with others (especially in Jazz setting), you do not ask what key we are playing? You hear what they play and join the jam session. In addition, people who have perfect pitch will usually have no difficulities to play in whatever keys.

Having relative pitch will work just as well. You find a note, say D, and then you find the note that the other players using as tonic. Most of the time in my experience, musicians always annouce what key they are starting on.

What proof do you have that perfect pitch allows one to play in any key? It is called modulation and transposition, and can be acquired with practice.

Offline futureconcertpianist

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #35 on: August 22, 2007, 05:09:56 AM
"
Could a color blind person develop his color perception ability??? Of course not, because they do not have the ability to do that. How hard they try and practice to see color, they will not be able to see them. The same like PP thing. If a person does not have the PP gene, he or she will not be able to hear certain characteristic of the sound that makes a certain note. They could hear the change of frequency but cannot tell what it is. By the way, your analogy of flying is not a good analogy. People without PP can also use a device that can tell what note it is....What we want to have is the natural ability to recognize notes, not using a device like airplane etc."

Why? Because now I have a much deeper understanding of music, I can hear all music in a colourful way, I hear the actual tone of the sound rather than wether it is moving up or down in pitch. I hear into the note, a deep awareness of the sound and not a surface knowledge of wether the pitch is moving up or down. It is 90 percent more pleasurable to listen to music now, even listening to one note is a mere pleasure.
Also there is the added benifit that I now memorize things at lightning speed and it is virtually impossible for me to not recover from a slip or memory lapse as my ear takes over I can hear the music in my mind and I have immediate associations of the music with the actual notes I need to physically play. Before I use to be the memory lapse king, now I hardly have them. Plus I have an added confidence on stage and I dont get nervous very oftern now.

Offline nyonyo

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #36 on: August 22, 2007, 02:11:53 PM
Having relative pitch will work just as well. You find a note, say D, and then you find the note that the other players using as tonic. Most of the time in my experience, musicians always annouce what key they are starting on.

What proof do you have that perfect pitch allows one to play in any key? It is called modulation and transposition, and can be acquired with practice.

I do not know what level of players you played with. I have never played with anybody who asked what key and figuring out the tonic etc. As soon as you hear, you can tell right away the key. Otherwise, you need to try to find the key. You do not do that in a public forum...It will be emberassing....

I do not need to practice transposition. This is from my own experience and others who have perfect pitch that once I hear a melody line, I can change to whatever key that you want without practicing because I know the relation of each keys.  This is the reason for people who do not have perfect pitch, they will be scared to dead to do improvisation with people who have perfect pitch, because non PP people cannot keep up with PP people. It is just too much work for non PP people to keep up with PP people.

Offline nyonyo

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #37 on: August 22, 2007, 02:16:04 PM
futureconcertpianist,

You must have certain level of PP ability (may be not a great one, but you have). Otherwise, the same like color blind analogy, you will not be able to develop PP ability.

By the way, why you quote my posting but not giving pertinent answer?

Offline franzliszt2

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #38 on: August 22, 2007, 08:12:54 PM
I do not know what level of players you played with. I have never played with anybody who asked what key and figuring out the tonic etc. As soon as you hear, you can tell right away the key. Otherwise, you need to try to find the key. You do not do that in a public forum...It will be emberassing....

I do not need to practice transposition. This is from my own experience and others who have perfect pitch that once I hear a melody line, I can change to whatever key that you want without practicing because I know the relation of each keys.  This is the reason for people who do not have perfect pitch, they will be scared to dead to do improvisation with people who have perfect pitch, because non PP people cannot keep up with PP people. It is just too much work for non PP people to keep up with PP people.

I agree totally. I can't imagine what it is like not to have perfect picth so I don't understand people who don;t have pefect pictch. Transposition is not a problem, but it does bug me when things are out of tune or in a different key to what I'm used to, amatuer singers who can;t sing in correct key so transpose...that bugs me

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #39 on: August 22, 2007, 09:07:00 PM
Quote
futureconcertpianist,

You must have certain level of PP ability (may be not a great one, but you have). Otherwise, the same like color blind analogy, you will not be able to develop PP ability.

What evidence is there that supports the idea that PP is genetic?  Which gene sequence does it appear in?

How can the evidence that students in sightsinging classes using fixed Do can learn to identify pitches accurately when this is supposedly genetically impossible?  Perhaps the school doesn't allow any student into the class unless they already have PP?  This is ludicrous.  This evidence shows that PP can be learned.  This also shows why using moveable Do, students don't learn PP because pitches never have fixed name.

Offline richard black

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #40 on: August 22, 2007, 10:46:58 PM
Most musicians have a _kind of_ perfect pitch. I have the most extreme form of perfect pitch - to the extent that when I worked as an engineer, years ago, I was used as a walking spectrum analyser by my colleagues. But most of the singers I work with daily have it to the extent that _if they don't think about it_ they can usually sing the right note completely out of nowhere.

As for what its uses are, I can tell you it's incredibly handy when you're coaching singers and want to be sure whether they're singing the right notes in even slightly atonal music.
Instrumentalists are all wannabe singers. Discuss.

Offline thalberg

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #41 on: August 23, 2007, 03:16:20 AM
I wish I had perfect pitch.  Ever notice how some people are better at hearing vertical sonorities while others are better at hearing horizontally--melodies and such?

Anyway, in terms of any genetic predisposition, I do believe some people are naturally more auditory learners than others.  Perhaps the more auditory a person is, the more likely they are to have perfect pitch. 

One dude I knew with perfect pitch remembered everything teachers said in class.  Anyone else like that?
 

Offline nyonyo

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #42 on: August 23, 2007, 04:45:50 AM
I am like that....I can remember whatever I heard, especially if the topic is of my interest. People cannot really lie to me, because I can remember every  small details. I wish I did not have this kind of useless memory. However, I have hard time to remember things that I read from books.

Offline franzliszt2

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #43 on: August 24, 2007, 05:29:35 PM
Some people say perfect pitch is memory related. That would make sense for me since I remember almost everything to tiny details easily. Like phone numbers will stick with me forever after 1 hearing or seeing of them.  I never forget things, which can be highly annoying!!

Offline richard black

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #44 on: August 24, 2007, 11:42:41 PM
That's interesting about perfect pitch and other kinds of memory (I say 'other kinds' because I've always taken it as axiomatic that perfect pitch is a form of memory). I have an above-average, though not truly remarkable, memory for numbers and fascinating bits of useless information but my memory in most ways is pretty average.
Instrumentalists are all wannabe singers. Discuss.

Offline timothy42b

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #45 on: August 28, 2007, 09:08:06 AM
I do not think it is axiomatic, though it may be true in many cases.

It is normally very hard to remember the exact shade of any color, when you shop for fabric to match furniture for example.  Similarly it is hard to remember exactly how wide your doorway is without measuring and writing down a number.

But there is also a qualitative difference between the colors in a spectrum.  Green looks distinctly different from red or yellow - it is not just a little higher or lower in frequency.  Some people claim that notes are distinctly different in the same way, and this would not be a memory issue. 
Tim

Offline Bob

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #46 on: August 29, 2007, 01:17:50 AM
One gene may be key to coveted perfect pitch
https://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070827/music_nm/gene_pitch_dc_2
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #47 on: August 29, 2007, 01:45:59 PM
But obviously there is no proof it's genetic, only circumstance according to the article.  No genetic sequencing was done on any individual and they are jumping to theories that it must be genetic based on an online hearing test.  Did these participants submit there DNA for sequencing?

Are these people stupid?  Are these people even scientists?  There is a huge leap of faith to jump to such a conclusion because both perfect pitch and genetics are not well understood and they are going to make a connection with two fields of study that we do not have a large body of knowledge of.  The simple answer is probably the accurate one.

Offline dan101

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #48 on: November 16, 2007, 06:08:31 AM
I have perfect pitch. Don't try to teach it to yourself. So many of my colleagues have tried and not even come close to acquiring absolute pitch. My suggestion... learn to judge the distance between notes (intervals). You'll improvise better with this skill. Good luck.
Daniel E. Friedman, owner of www.musicmasterstudios.com[/url]
You CAN learn to play the piano and compose in a fun and effective way.

Offline theodore

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Re: Teaching Pitch perfect?
Reply #49 on: November 29, 2007, 05:37:02 PM
In the real world there is the common sense of adjusting to developing conditions.

At a concert in Germany I heard an outdoor concert  where one of the pieces was the Marcello D minor oboe concerto accompanied by strings and harpsichord.

During the second movement all of the strings noticed that the oboe was slowly getting sharper and sharper due to the outside humidity and the tension and drama which the oboist expressed. All of the strings naturally adjusted to the oboe. However, the harpsichord player began to play very very softly and seemed undecided whether to continue.

Beginning with the third movement the pitch had raised almost a half step. The harpsichord player had enough sense to stop playing. The oboist displayed dazzling dexterity and ended the concerto in a blaze of virtuostic bravura . The concerto ended in the key of a real low E flat minor. The audience was completely exhilarated and the oboist was rewarded with a standing ovation. 

Theodore
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