Advantage to flat-fingered playing?

[forzaitalia250]

I was on a website that was an internet-book on piano technique ( www.pianofundamentals.com ), and one of the sections discussed the benefits of learning to play with flat fingers ( www.pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.III.4.2 ).

I had always been taught to play with slightly curled fingers, but after watching Horowitz on youtube and then reading this, I became curious to whether or not it would benefit my playing.

Any thoughts on whether or not it would be a beneficial technique to learn?

[amelialw]

you absolutely should not play with flat fingers. Slighty curved fingers and flat fingers are 2 totally different things. If you have a good teacher, the teacher will tell you that.

I have a excellent teacher and I haven't played with flat fingers since

[m]

you absolutely should not play with flat fingers.

Why is that? I, for example, do play MANY things with flat fingers. Am I doing something wrong?

[faulty_damper]

Why is that? I, for example, do play MANY things with flat fingers. Am I doing something wrong?

Exactly what is it that you are playing?  This is the question that determines how someone uses his performing mechanism.  It would be impossible to play everything in the literature in this manner because you simply wouldn't be able play many pieces of literature in such a manner.

[faulty_damper]

I was on a website that was an internet-book on piano technique ( www.pianofundamentals.com ), and one of the sections discussed the benefits of learning to play with flat fingers ( www.pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.III.4.2 ).

I had always been taught to play with slightly curled fingers, but after watching Horowitz on youtube and then reading this, I became curious to whether or not it would benefit my playing.

Any thoughts on whether or not it would be a beneficial technique to learn?

If you understood what Chang was actually referring to, you will see that he doesn't endorse playing everything in FFP, as he acronizes it.  He is simply stating that physiologically, it reduces "curl paralysis" which is essential for playing fast passages (in other words, Hanon is destructive to technique).  He also says a whole lot of other things.

As to your example of Horowitz, do you really think he was that great of a pianist with holding his hands like that, missed notes, improper phrasing (if it was discernable that there was a phrase), and all?  If you thoroughly understand what Chang was saying you'd understand how flawed Horowitz was as a pianist, and it causes his musicianship to suffer.

To quote CC Chang:
"We have therefore arrived at a most important general concept: we must liberate ourselves from the tyranny of the single fixed curled position. We must learn to use all of the available finger positions because each has its advantages."

[schubertiad]

For lots of pieces playing with anything other than flat fingers would lead to some serious carpal tunnel. This often applies to rolling figures (i.e. chopin op.25 no.1, or rach etude op.33 no.2). I do have some doubts, however, about Chang's claim that letting the last phalange of the finger collapse can be a useful technique. (A phalange, so Chang tells us, is one of the 3 joints of the finger, or 2 joints of the thumb). I initially tried this, but found that all control of notes was lost, and it ended up sounding very weak, and with more wrong notes. Perhaps i was doing it wrong, but have found that keeeping the last knuckle joint firm has really helped my playing. Plus, in all the videos of professionals that i've seen, i haven't noticed any of their fingers collapsing either. Sorry if this seems a little unrelated, but it is often when playing with flat fingers that the finger joints are liable to collapse.

[faulty_damper]

Playing with flat fingers liberates us to use many useful and versatile finger positions. We now know how to play all those black keys and not miss a single note! Thank you, Mr. Horowitz and Mlle. Combe.

I must disagree with Chang here.  Anyone who has heard Horowitz live or on recording will tell you he misses notes, or rather plays extra notes with his fingers.

I have no idea of Mademoiselle Combe is.

[ramibarniv]

I was on a website that was an internet-book on piano technique ( www.pianofundamentals.com ), and one of the sections discussed the benefits of learning to play with flat fingers ( www.pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.III.4.2 ).

I had always been taught to play with slightly curled fingers, but after watching Horowitz on youtube and then reading this, I became curious to whether or not it would benefit my playing.

Any thoughts on whether or not it would be a beneficial technique to learn?

It doesn't matter much curved fingers or not, what matters is that the hand should not be flat, as it is so much harder to lift the fingers if the hand is flat. The knuckles between the hand and the fingers should be the highest point of the whole hand.
Best,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[schubertiad]

If you observe this video of Helene Grimaud playing Rach op.33 no.2 (which as i said earlier, requires a rolling motion of the hand) you will see that at times (particularly from about 1.30) the knuckle between her hand and fingers is right into the key bed, and the second set of knuckles is raised about an inch higher. My hands are very different to hers, but for this section I find myself doing exactly the same thing. Are we both wrong? 

http://

[affettuoso]

One of my teachers (a concert pianist) says that playing with slightly flattened fingers is used at times to create a more gentle sound.  I only use it when he advises so, but as others have stated, as long as the position of the hand and knuckles are correct this is fine.

[ramibarniv]

If you observe this video of Helene Grimaud playing Rach op.33 no.2 (which as i said earlier, requires a rolling motion of the hand) you will see that at times (particularly from about 1.30) the knuckle between her hand and fingers is right into the key bed, and the second set of knuckles is raised about an inch higher. My hands are very different to hers, but for this section I find myself doing exactly the same thing. Are we both wrong? 

http://

If it feels good and sounds good and leaves your hands with no injury it is not wrong.
Best,
Rami
https://www.youtube.com/user/barniv
https://ramisrhapsody.tripod.com/

[m]

(in other words, Hanon is destructive to technique). 

How so?

As to your example of Horowitz, do you really think he was that great of a pianist with holding his hands like that, missed notes, improper phrasing (if it was discernable that there was a phrase), and all?  If you thoroughly understand what Chang was saying you'd understand how flawed Horowitz was as a pianist, and it causes his musicianship to suffer.

This statement is... very controversial, to say the least...
but  yes, I believe that Horowitz was THAT great of a pianist. I don't understand the part "holding hands like that" (like what?).
Also, his missed notes had nothing to do with his hands position (for example, Gilels also missed a LOT of notes and for some reason nobody puts at fault his hand position.)

Moreover, it is a mistery for me what do you mean by improper phrasing and how his musicianship suffered.
 

[amelialw]

simply said, I played with flat-fingers for 15 years before I had my current teacher. I had no strength in my fingers, could'nt really make a contrast between loud and soft, to round up although I was musical, there was a lack of this. Curved fingers do make a difference whether you believe it or not. Try it for yourself, instead of playing whatever you play with flat fingers, play it with curved fingers instead but when you play with curved fingers shape them to the music.

[mephisto]

As to your example of Horowitz, do you really think he was that great of a pianist with holding his hands like that, missed notes, improper phrasing (if it was discernable that there was a phrase), and all?  If you thoroughly understand what Chang was saying you'd understand how flawed Horowitz was as a pianist, and it causes his musicianship to suffer.

From a listeners point view Horowitz was certainly one of the greatest pianists who have ever lived. Regardless of his "imperfect technique" or not.

[m]

Try it for yourself, instead of playing whatever you play with flat fingers, play it with curved fingers instead...

Trust me, I tried many times... that's the reason I am playing many things with flat fingers.

I just don't quite understand what you mean by "when you play with curved fingers shape them to the music"

[amelialw]

you have tried it many times and failed, I bet that you tried it for just a few days and gave up. It does not work just like that, it took me more then a year to break my habit of playing with flat fingers, it does not happen immediately.

you have to let your fingers flow with the music

[m]

you have tried it many times and failed, I bet that you tried it for just a few days and gave up.

What makes you think so?

And what would be a purpose specifically for me to play with "nice curved fingers", first thing?

[amelialw]

because I know it's not easy...it takes a lot of time you know. You have to learn to play with curved fingers too, my teacher had to teach me.

[m]

because I know it's not easy...

I disagree here, because it is pretty easy, but I heartly agree with the part that piano practicing takes lots of time... that's for sure.

You have to learn to play with curved fingers too, my teacher had to teach me.

What makes you feel that I haven't learnt it? My teachers tought me this part, too.

[amelialw]

whatever, I don't want to argue with anyone. Both of us have 2 entirely different opinions. What I've said has worked with me.

[m]

whatever, I don't want to argue with anyone. Both of us have 2 entirely different opinions. What I've said has worked with me.

That's entirely different story. The reason I started arguing is because you said
You absolutely should not play with flat fingers, which is very different from has worked with me, isn't it?

On the other hand, even though now you think that curved fingers are a "cure" for all the problems, I'd still strongly suggest to explore "flat-finger" approach, as it gives very different kind of sound, and different finger-tip sensitivity, as well as "feel" of the key bottom.
For example, singing melodies of Chopin, most of Rachmaninov, or Chopin opus10/2 I play with flat fingers. On the other hand, most of Mozart, Beethoven, Prokofiev, etc. with curved.
Only your ears can tell you what to do and what you want to do. And of course, it is very much depends on the hand structure.

Hopefully it helps.

Best, M

[amelialw]

yes, that's my opinion, that you absolutely should not play with flat fingers.

I have explored the flat-fingers approach and it does not work. I play all the singing melodies, everything with curved fingers. The only time I open up my hands to an almost flat stage is for chopin Op.10 No.5 during that part where your hands have to leap so much due to my small hands.

[m]

yes, that's my opinion, that you absolutely should not play with flat fingers.

I have explored the flat-fingers approach and it does not work.

So, if it didn't work for you, does it necessarily mean that ABSOLUTELY nobody should play with flat fingers??? What a strange position!!!
It worked for Horowitz, Rachmaninov, Gould, Volodos, and it works for me...

And BTW, the reason it did not work for you is most likely due to the fact that you just did not do it right.

Best, M

[amelialw]

ok whatever. Horowitz does not play with flat fingers, he plays with slightly curved fingers. Anyway I rest my case.

[ganymed]

You can play MUCH faster with curved fingers, which is not very hard to recognize.
Secondly, your fingers are much more movable and your whole playing becomes more flexiblity when playing with curved fingers. this was the thing i have learned on my first piano lesson. NEVER play with flat fingers. 

For slow tempi it may not make such a differennce. But its very neccessary to curve your fingers for fast playing.

That's entirely different story. The reason I started arguing is because you said
You absolutely should not play with flat fingers, which is very different from has worked with me, isn't it?

On the other hand, even though now you think that curved fingers are a "cure" for all the problems, I'd still strongly suggest to explore "flat-finger" approach, as it gives very different kind of sound, and different finger-tip sensitivity, as well as "feel" of the key bottom.

but isnt that also possible with curved fingers !?

[m]

You can play MUCH faster with curved fingers, which is not very hard to recognize.

I respectfully disagree.

Secondly, your fingers are much more movable and your whole playing becomes more flexiblity when playing with curved fingers. this was the thing i have learned on my first piano lesson. NEVER play with flat fingers.  For slow tempi it may not make such a differennce. But its very neccessary to curve your fingers for fast playing.

To be honest, I don't quite remember what I have learned on my first piano lesson, and much more rely on what I've learnt later in my life, but I definitely disagree with each your single statement.

but isnt that also possible with curved fingers !?

Everything in life is possible  .

[pianowolfi]

Argh this is so strange. I mean, the hands should be flexible, "breathing" like marik suggests (this was somehow a keyword to me) "There is no position, there is only movement"(or so? as I read somewhere else on ps recently in the context of Alexander technique) There are things that are not playable with flat fingers, there are things that are not playable with curved fingers. Just be ready. Ready for everything.

[jinfiesto]

I was taught that there was a time for both. Different hand positions give different sound to the notes. When piano teachers say curve your fingers, I really think they should be saying curve your hand. because the arch is what's really important. The rest of the hand... Not so much. It's possible to play quickly both flat fingered and curvedly.

[franzliszt2]

I play STRAIGHT fingeredly. It helps me use arm weight. I have totaly control of sound becasue my arm is controling everything. I remove the knuckle joints. Passing of the thumb is easier. Watch Arrau...thats the ultimate position for me. Like a wedge shape. Curved fingers have to be used at times of course, for very fast passages where you want a "hamelin like" touch. For glossing over the keys. For a deep sound flat is almost always better. The arm weight is the essential ingrediant to nice tone production, and to do that the fingers must be removed

[mknueven]

It depends on what I'm playing how my fingers are poised.

The most important thing is that my arm is moving my hand.

If I'm playing a piece in C # - and I'm playing F# G# and A# - what advantage would there be for me to have arched fingers?  Flat is better for that passage.

If I'm playing certain baroque pieces in G - and there are a lot of stacattos - I would have my fingers arched -

[ramseytheii]

Flat fingered playing gives an advantage to gripping the black notes.

Walter Ramsey

[thalberg]

Many people tried to imitate horowitz's technique, and he tried to teach it to them--particularly his octaves which were so famous.  But no one could do it.  He just had an unusual physical makeup and should not be taken as a role model unless you want to hurt yourself.

[pianistimo]

i learned to play with curved fingers and then switched to flatter.  i think pianowolfi is on to something when he said 'there is no position - only movement...' or something like that.  for instance, when i play some fugal type things of bach - with a lot of crossovers and stuff that involve moving the hands in and out from each other - i have to make space for the other hand.  if both hands are the same flatness - you run into the other hand.  although, one can always play with lesser curve than a complete curve (complete curve meaning: playing with fingernail edges touching the keys).  to me, the latter is working too many movements in the hand.  why not use less 'muscles' and get more done.  although - the problem is training each finger to respond in smaller sections as precisely as possible.  it's not impossible - as i learned - but requires listening to the sound rather than focusing only on what you are doing with your fingers.  you can get a very velvety sound from flatter fingers.  massaging melodies out of the keybeds.  and you don't get 'key slap.' 

perhaps what people truly want to avoid is overdoing anything.  too flat.  too curved. unnatural.  after all - God made an apple in a natural conformation to a human hand.  the apple would have to be stepped on now for me- unfortunately.  i suppose i am not making any sense.

valentina listitsa played that opus 10 #1 with flatter hands - but not completely flat.

[ahinton]

God made an apple in a natural conformation to a human hand.  the apple would have to be stepped on now for me- unfortunately.  i suppose i am not making any sense.

I think that you "suppose" correctly - yet here you are again, bringing God into the vexed question about how pianists use their fingers; in another thread, I recall you writing that you did not know what God's ears look like, so one might reasonably assume you to be equally unfamiliar with his hands, so why yet more God here? Anyway, did He make humans (hands and all) before making the apple and did He accordingly then deliberately make the apple in the image of a human hand? And why only the apple? Anyway, whoever it was that said that "had God intended Man to play the piano He would not have created him with thumbs" appears at least to have recognised that God was no pianist in any case.

There are times when I am tempted to speculate that, if God did not exist, Susan would have to invent Him...

Anyway, let me end by assuring you that, when I eventually get to PA, I will absolutely NOT step on your hands.

Best,

Alistair

[thalberg]

I think that you "suppose" correctly - yet here you are again, bringing God into the vexed question about how pianists use their fingers; in another thread, I recall you writing that you did not know what God's ears look like, so one might reasonably assume you to be equally unfamiliar with his hands, so why yet more God here? Anyway, did He make humans (hands and all) before making the apple and did He accordingly then deliberately make the apple in the image of a human hand? And why only the apple? Anyway, whoever it was that said that "had God intended Man to play the piano He would not have created him with thumbs" appears at least to have recognised that God was no pianist in any case.

There are times when I am tempted to speculate that, if God did not exist, Susan would have to invent Him...

Anyway, let me end by assuring you that, when I eventually get to PA, I will absolutely NOT step on your hands.

Best,

Alistair

God already existed before He created the apple, and we are made in God's image.  So really, God created the apple to conform to His *own* hand, and ours happen to grasp it well simply because we're made in His image.

I personally have large hands, and God has provided me with some large apples I have found at the grocery store today.  They are Fuji apples which God originally placed in Japan, but which man has brought to America with the help of divine providence.  I think God wants me to go eat one.  Unfortunately, I cannot, because I sinned by eating some high-calorie brownies in a fit of intemperance.

[counterpoint]

i learned to play with curved fingers and then switched to flatter. 

I don't even know, in which position my hands and fingers are, when I play. The only thing I know is, if it feels comfortable or if it feels uncomfortable. So I try to find the most comfortable position for every figure for the sound I want to achieve. It's to a great part an intuitive search for the right position and movement.

The only teacher, who told me exactly how to position my hands and fingers, made my playing really worse.

[ahinton]

God already existed before He created the apple, and we are made in God's image.  So really, God created the apple to conform to His *own* hand, and ours happen to grasp it well simply because we're made in His image.

I personally have large hands, and God has provided me with some large apples I have found at the grocery store today.  They are Fuji apples which God originally placed in Japan, but which man has brought to America with the help of divine providence.  I think God wants me to go eat one.  Unfortunately, I cannot, because I sinned by eating some high-calorie brownies in a fit of intemperance.

Thank you for all this interesting information. Please do not worry unduly about the last piece thereof, since I have every faith in Susan that she will come to your rescue here and help you to pray appropriately to atone for this indiscretion.

Now to go write a piano étude and call it The Flat-Fingered Apple (or should I perhaps make it a tribute to Susan's curves?)...

Best,

Alistair

[gjkoster]

Hi,

In my opinion saying that you should never play with flat fingers is simply incorrect. Looking closely at Horowitz's hands show that his fingers did all kinds of things. Like someone said, watching his hands is like watching a beautiful racehorse. That's not only flat-fingered but also curled. I read an article where Horowitz stated that the hands 'simply' needed to do what was needed for the music. I think that is all there is to it. Every pianist needs to stretch sometimes and plays with flat fingers. Is the music then gone all of a sudden? The statement that flat-fingered playing limits flexibility and the abilitiy to play loud or soft is also incorrect imo. Horowitz was celibrated for his large span of extreme fortes and pianissimo's. Not to mention his colouration especially when he was older. Is Horowitz's playing a model for all pianists then? Sure not, Rachmaninov said that Horowitz flat-fingered playing was not how it was normally taught but that it somehow worked for him. I suppose that is what every pianist (amateur or pro) should do, find the way that works. After all, all hands are different so who is to say? People with small hands sometimes cannot play curled and people with large hands (especially long fingers) can sometimes not play flat! Playing with flat or curled fingers, what is the big deal, means to an end if you ask me. As long as it does not become a limitation.

Cheers,
GJ

[term]

Hi,

In my opinion saying that you should never play with flat fingers is simply incorrect. Looking closely at Horowitz's hands show that his fingers did all kinds of things. Like someone said, watching his hands is like watching a beautiful racehorse. That's not only flat-fingered but also curled. I read an article where Horowitz stated that the hands 'simply' needed to do what was needed for the music. I think that is all there is to it. Every pianist needs to stretch sometimes and plays with flat fingers. Is the music then gone all of a sudden? The statement that flat-fingered playing limits flexibility and the abilitiy to play loud or soft is also incorrect imo. Horowitz was celibrated for his large span of extreme fortes and pianissimo's. Not to mention his colouration especially when he was older. Is Horowitz's playing a model for all pianists then? Sure not, Rachmaninov said that Horowitz flat-fingered playing was not how it was normally taught but that it somehow worked for him. I suppose that is what every pianist (amateur or pro) should do, find the way that works. After all, all hands are different so who is to say? People with small hands sometimes cannot play curled and people with large hands (especially long fingers) can sometimes not play flat! Playing with flat or curled fingers, what is the big deal, means to an end if you ask me. As long as it does not become a limitation.

Cheers,
GJ

The answer to all questions. Thanks.

[cmg]

The real point of "flat-fingered" playing has been overlooked.  Only Marik touched upon it.

Flat-fingered is an over-simplification.  No one, not even Horowitz, plays "flat-fingered," literally and strictly speaking.

A teaching assistant of Menachem Pressler coached me some years ago on the Schumann Concerto.  And she stressed the concept of "scratching" the keys.  An approach that is compatible with any hand position -- arched or flat. 

To illustrate:  it is obvious that in Bach or Mozart, where wide hand extensions are not the rule, a so-called "arched hand" position is the more natural postion.  But, even in this position, the attack on the keys is initiated by a scratching motion, i.e. a finger stroke that emanates from the tip of the finger.  Following this initial stroke, the finger then pulls the energy of this finger-tip stroke into the palm.  It feels, initially, like a staccato stroke, but it is adjusted to the requirement of the pitch.  For legato, the stoke is prolonged, drawn-out, but it still begins its life as a "scratch."

Great pianists like Horowitz (and I can't believe there are people on this forum with the arrogance and ignorance to disparage him) may appear to employ "flat-fingered" technique, but, in reality, the scratching approach is part of the initial key stroke.  In other words, there is the inherent feel to the key stroke of an "arched" hand.  But the "arched hand" is manifested in the flattened palm with the energy channeled into the fingertip in the "scratching" key stroke.

I have an average size hand.  But in working on Rachmaninov (currently the  Second Concerto), I encounter very wide extensions that require me to play with a "flat-fingered" approach.  But, still, the primary energy of my hand is concentrated in the fingertip. 

Pianists, like "amelia" who adhere to a dogma professed by their teachers, only exacerbate this problem of arched hand over flat-fingered hand.  Flat-fingered playing is not only unavoidable but natural and expectable, especially if one has a small hand.  Observe YOUR OWN hand.  Feel the energy needed to coax beautiful sound from the instrument.  It is your fingertip that is the point of contact.  Your body is behind that fingertip.  That is the point.  Not arched or flat.  It doesn't matter.  Concentrate on the FINGER-TIP. 

[ramseytheii]

The real point of "flat-fingered" playing has been overlooked.  Only Marik touched upon it.

Flat-fingered is an over-simplification.  No one, not even Horowitz, plays "flat-fingered," literally and strictly speaking.

A teaching assistant of Menachem Pressler coached me some years ago on the Schumann Concerto.  And she stressed the concept of "scratching" the keys.  An approach that is compatible with any hand position -- arched or flat. 

To illustrate:  it is obvious that in Bach or Mozart, where wide hand extensions are not the rule, a so-called "arched hand" position is the more natural postion.  But, even in this position, the attack on the keys is initiated by a scratching motion, i.e. a finger stroke that emanates from the tip of the finger.  Following this initial stroke, the finger then pulls the energy of this finger-tip stroke into the palm.  It feels, initially, like a staccato stroke, but it is adjusted to the requirement of the pitch.  For legato, the stoke is prolonged, drawn-out, but it still begins its life as a "scratch."

Great pianists like Horowitz (and I can't believe there are people on this forum with the arrogance and ignorance to disparage him) may appear to employ "flat-fingered" technique, but, in reality, the scratching approach is part of the initial key stroke.  In other words, there is the inherent feel to the key stroke of an "arched" hand.  But the "arched hand" is manifested in the flattened palm with the energy channeled into the fingertip in the "scratching" key stroke.

I have an average size hand.  But in working on Rachmaninov (currently the  Second Concerto), I encounter very wide extensions that require me to play with a "flat-fingered" approach.  But, still, the primary energy of my hand is concentrated in the fingertip. 

Pianists, like "amelia" who adhere to a dogma professed by their teachers, only exacerbate this problem of arched hand over flat-fingered hand.  Flat-fingered playing is not only unavoidable but natural and expectable, especially if one has a small hand.  Observe YOUR OWN hand.  Feel the energy needed to coax beautiful sound from the instrument.  It is your fingertip that is the point of contact.  Your body is behind that fingertip.  That is the point.  Not arched or flat.  It doesn't matter.  Concentrate on the FINGER-TIP. 

I half agree and half disagree.  When people are talking about flat-fingered playing, they are not at all describing the type of touch.  They are just talking about how the fingers are shaped.  You are describing a very specialized type of touch, that can be employed no matter how the fingers are shaped (I myself describe it as "petting the cat;" Beethoven's playing was described as "dusting of the keys.")

On the other hand, so often people see a video of a pianist with an idiosyncratic technique, and onl yimitate what they see on the outside, but the inner feeling doesn't correspond.  The secret of these great pianists with personal techniques is that their techniques correspond exactly with what they hear with their inner ear.  It does no good to imitate them from the outside in, it has to be learned from the inside out.

One more thing: even in Bach and Mozart, the "scratching" touch as you describe it is not exclusive.  That type of touch is not exclusive ever, in any style of music.  We also have to use the pushing in motion, especially in Bach and Mozart when you have to play legato chords that cannot be connected by fingers alone.  It may be less frequent in Bach, but it does happen; or more accurately, sometimes a three-voice texture may be concentrated in one hand, and you can't connect every voice with the fingers alone.

Walter Ramsey

[m]

 

After Horowitz' concert in Moscow (I still remember where I was sitting) entire Moscow conservatory went nuts. Suddenly everybody "realized" ( ) that they were playing "wrong". Mind you, some of them were brilliant pianists and already had big names. For awhile whole Moscow conservatory was playing with flat fingers...

I have to admit, I was in the same camp. Still remember coming to the lesson with my professor L. Naumov when I brought Beethoven Op.101, of course, trying to play it with flat fingers. His response was (with his usual admirable naivity):

"Silly boy...

Your fingers are snotty....

Go practice and think not about your fingers but about your music".

[franzliszt2]

WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU WERE AT THAT CONCERT MARIK?

IF YES THAT IS THE COOLEST THING EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What was it like? I've watched the dvd millions of times! wowowow If there is one concert in all history I could attend that would be it!

[jabbz]

I normally play with very slightly curved fingers, but my fingers are very flat for 1-2-3 chromatic scales, and very arched for 3-4-5 chromatic scales.

[m]

WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU WERE AT THAT CONCERT MARIK?

IF YES THAT IS THE COOLEST THING EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What was it like? I've watched the dvd millions of times! wowowow If there is one concert in all history I could attend that would be it!

Yes, I was there.

The closest analogy of that feeling I could come up with would've been if Pianistimo touched Mr. Jesus Christ himself with her own hands .

I have to say though, the DVD has been heavily doctored.

Now, after so many years I can tell that in my memory some of Gilels, Richter, or Shura Cherkassky concerts were as legendary.

I had a pleasure to take lessons with eminent Israeli pianist Pnina Saltzman, who used to study with Cortot since she was a little girl.
From her words NOBODY WAS LIKE RACHMANINOV. Mind you, she heard

EVERYBODY

i.e. Hoffman, Moiseyewitch, Fiedman, Rubinstein, Cziffra, Horowitz, Solomon, etc. when all of them were still in their prime.

And I tend to agree with her...

[pianowolfi]

Yes, I was there.

I am awestruck

I have to say though, the DVD has been heavily doctored.

Is there an undoctored version?

[lohshuhan]

you absolutely should not play with flat fingers. Slighty curved fingers and flat fingers are 2 totally different things. If you have a good teacher, the teacher will tell you that.

I have a excellent teacher and I haven't played with flat fingers since

i played most of the right hand part of chopin's op 10 no 5 using flat fingers, and i use flat fingers when i have a passage which involves E-flat minor, or F-sharp major figuration...  it helps in accuracy...  i have sweaty palms, so its quite a liability when my palms and fingers are sweating, and i try to play black keys.  the result would be me slipping off the black keys most of the time... 

[amelialw]

see, that's why the black key etude is difficult, because when you play with curved fingers they tend to slip off the keys...
I have sweaty palms too, but I play with curved fingers.

[ramseytheii]

Maybe there's an issue here of debauched kinaesthesia.  Instead of curved or flat fingers, perhaps we should be discussing which part makes contact with the keys - fingertips or the fleshy part of the finger.  Hearing someone say, "never, ever play with flat fingers" surprised me until I realized they were probably imagining an excessively straight, and probably tense, finger.

When playing on the black keys, perhaps it is more accurate to say, you use more flesh on the finger, when playing on the white keys, which tend to be more finger-tip oriented.
This all changes depending on what type of touch you use; though in general I would say you definitely use more flesh on the black keys.

Walter Ramsey

[matterintospirit]

SOOO much to read SOOO little time I learned to play with my fingers curved in a complete L shape and learned to control each finger independently from the others. For some years (30 at least),  I haven't given it any thought, and I teach my students to slighty curve but see how they develop, what works for their hands, what is comfortable for them, what WORKS technically and musically, etc. etc. etc. For myself, the music dictates the movement of the hand. never think about it. would be an inteference like having some piano teacher of the past lodged in your brain.