Sight Reading

[crucifixion]

Does anyone else have trouble sight reading well on piano? I've been playing for just a little over 2 months. I get in the habit to memorize the song gradually because reading the notes as I'm playing doesn't work out too well for me. My sight reading is just absolutely terrible. I especially have trouble sight reading chords on the go. What can I do to improve? Any tips? Should I practice short exercises? Or maybe just continue with full scores? How should I read chords? From the bottom up?

[faulty_damper]

You've been playing for two months and you are already complaining that your sightreading skill is un-developed?  I've been trying to learn Japanese for over 6 months and I'm still bad at it!

SR is a skill that needs to be developed, hopefully by using relatively easy musical materal with many easy to understand patterns.  Try the Notebook for Anna Magdalena Bach by JS Bach as it is a collection of relatively easy works he set down for his wife.  It's excellent musical material and you probably would not get bored with these excellent pieces of music.  Also, it can give you insight as to how music is constructed and how music evolved as well as an understanding of harmony if your teacher is able to guide you to see these things.  Since it is baroque period music, the keys are simple and you could master the harmonies by learning them.

SR is a skill that needs to be practiced daily for at least 15 un-interupted minutes with full concentration and focus.  This assumes that the material is suitable for your developing skills.  If not, these 15 minutes can be mentally painful.

Beyond this simple advice, you should perform a search for Sight Reading.  There is much information about it. 

[b0mbtrack]

yeah just do a search on it and you will get a lot of info.  one of the best pieces of info i got was to get the book Super Sight Readinig Secrets.  It sounds stupid and the book doesn't look like much but it helps a lot.  It gives you a course to follow step by step.  There are a lot of bad reviews on it but those are from people that took one look at it and didn't actually try what the book says.  You have to start from page one and just go all the way through. 

[talmidah]

Hi,

I would agree with everyone else so far.

I too am struggling with reading with speed. I am fine, when playing one hand at a time, but when using both.....grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

I learnt to play by ear before learning to read music, so I tend to find it easy to memorise some pieces, at least the more difficult parts, which is not what I want to or should be doing.

I think it helps to find new pieces to read on a regular basis, so that you do not get into the habit of memorizing the piece. There are also some excellent sight reading sites where you can test yourself at reading the notes. I had stuggled with the bass clef for some time until I starting using these aids, that really helped. You may try these if you will:

https://www.arthurwilliamstone.com/bass1.htm

https://www.practicespot.com/theory/?t=92

[crucifixion]

Thank you very much everyone. I have a book with exercises so I guess I'll just play each one 2-3 times, not more, so that I don't memorize them.

I play the saxophone, clarinet and guitar too. I find it much easier to sight read with those instruments. I guess the piano is just a much more complicated instrument.

Oh and thank you for those 2 links talmidah. They were very helpful. :-)

[faulty_damper]

Thank you very much everyone. I have a book with exercises so I guess I'll just play each one 2-3 times, not more, so that I don't memorize them.

I'm going to jump on your thoughts right now: There are dangers to practicing robotically including sightreading.  I don't recommend reading exercises as they waste your time.  It's important to read actual pieces of literatue as it provides the necessary patterns for the understanding of music which develops musicianship skills.  You can imagine what could possibly happen if you practiced reading like a robot - you become a robot.

Also, If you have to play them 2-3 times, then it's beyond your ability and you would have already initiated the memory process just be reading it through once.  After the first read, it's no longer sightreading.

And exercise books are a waste of time.

[anna_crusis]

I have to disagree completely with that last post. I started trying to sight read with simple pieces (including the Anna Magdalena Bach book) and was going nowhere for ages. Without some sort or systematic, gradual program you just go round in circles - it's chaos.

I think the main mistake people make with sightreading is that they think it's just a matter of memorising the names of the notes. The trick is to forget about 'A B C D...' and just go by the intervals, as if you were following a bouncing ball up and down the staff. When I'm sight reading the only time I think about the name of a note is at the start of a phrase (obviously you need to know the scales well to do this).

Roughly, the progression towards good sight reading starts with single line exercises in one position and lots of different keys (the more keys you're familiar with, the easier the others become to read). Then gradually shifts in hand position are introduced as well as thirds, fourths, fifths and chords. After a while you become so familiar with the shapes and patterns that you can begin to look ahead a bit and see what's coming, so that you can plan what fingers you're going to use.

There's plenty of books that follow that kind of approach - Paul Harris 'Improve Your Sight Reading' is a typical series.

[b0mbtrack]

here is another very good sight for learning the notes, you can change how many ledger lines there are and plenty of other stuff. just go to trainer-note trainer
https://www.musictheory.net/index.html

[talmidah]

Posted by: anna_crusis 

I think the main mistake people make with sightreading is that they think it's just a matter of memorising the names of the notes. The trick is to forget about 'A B C D...' and just go by the intervals, as if you were following a bouncing ball up and down the staff. When I'm sight reading the only time I think about the name of a note is at the start of a phrase (obviously you need to know the scales well to do this). 

Hello,

I am strving to improve my sight reading skills and to a degree I understand what you mean regarding not memorising the names of the notes. However as many like myself learnt to memorize the names it is a challenge "unlearning" these habits.

I do understand though the value of recognising a pattern. There are chords that I already know, so when I see them on the staff I do not need to think of the notes, I know what they are. I think this is what you mean.

However, at my level of learning I am still thinking of the names of the notes. I am trying to see the notes now on the staff as the notes on the keyboard.

[faulty_damper]

Roughly, the progression towards good sight reading starts with single line exercises in one position and lots of different keys (the more keys you're familiar with, the easier the others become to read). Then gradually shifts in hand position are introduced as well as thirds, fourths, fifths and chords. After a while you become so familiar with the shapes and patterns that you can begin to look ahead a bit and see what's coming, so that you can plan what fingers you're going to use.

This is the "stepping stones" kind of reasoning that is taught in college sight-reading courses yet this actually goes against the way most people actually learn to do it.  This ladder approach is great for mental comprehension of the idea of how to sightread (but not actually doing it) and most people cannot find fault in it because it makes intellectual sense.

The ability to sight-read is NOT a gradual process like learning math because it involves many parts to form a whole; the parts are interdependent.  In other words, sightreading is not like climbing a ladder to get to the top (goal).  The goal of piano sightreading is to interpret symbols and ultimately perform them in a manner that is meaningful.  This is the same a reading a book aloud or in the mind.

In school, teachers do not teach literacy the way they teach math.  In fact, that is the worst way to teach people how to read which is why no teacher today would ever teach that way.  And vice versa to teach math like it were reading.  These two require entirely different kinds of comprehension.

I have to disagree completely with that last post. I started trying to sight read with simple pieces (including the Anna Magdalena Bach book) and was going nowhere for ages. Without some sort or systematic, gradual program you just go round in circles - it's chaos.

And this chaos is actually necessary for any learning to take place.  If there was not chaos, which manifests itself as confusion and uncertainty, then it means you are able to actually sightread.
It's highly unlikely that even after a few months of consistent learning that you'd go nowhere unless you are implying that you are mentally handicapped (no offense intended.)

Most people are not mentally handicapped.  What most people do not understand is that being confused is a learning stage; it means your mind does not understand/comprehend something.  Because this state of confusion (which manifests itself as "it's hard", "I don't get it", "I'm confused", etc.) is so uncomfortable that most people give up before they actually learn to do it competently.

Assuming that one were to consistently sightread pieces of literature within his or her abilities, there is no reason why someone doesn't become competent within a few months.  It's consistency that matters - but most people are not consistent.  This makes the ability to learn the most difficult thing to learn.  And it's a wonder why we learn anything at all considering how bad most of us are at learning a given subject (a direct result of formal schooling.)

[keyboard kitty]

I've been playing for a year now and still have trouble. I think I'm relitavely Good on the Treble. But on the Bass I need to use the- Great Big Dogs Frighten Aunty and All Cows Eat Grass. But I reckon if I play alot and just get use to it, it will come naturally.

[anna_crusis]

In school, teachers do not teach literacy the way they teach math.  In fact, that is the worst way to teach people how to read which is why no teacher today would ever teach that way.  And vice versa to teach math like it were reading.  These two require entirely different kinds of comprehension.

I respect your opinion but I can only speak from my own experience. The books worked great for me. They aren't any substitute for practicing to read real music but they are very useful (if you can afford them - they're not cheap and I bought about ten of them).

[anna_crusis]

I am strving to improve my sight reading skills and to a degree I understand what you mean regarding not memorising the names of the notes. However as many like myself learnt to memorize the names it is a challenge "unlearning" these habits.

I do understand though the value of recognising a pattern. There are chords that I already know, so when I see them on the staff I do not need to think of the notes, I know what they are. I think this is what you mean.

However, at my level of learning I am still thinking of the names of the notes. I am trying to see the notes now on the staff as the notes on the keyboard.

Well I didn't mean for you to unlearn anything; simply to add an extra dimension to the way you think about it. There's an obvious example: if you see a run of notes in seconds, then you only need to read the first note and then play the scale up to the last note. If you can become accustomed to looking at the intervals between notes then after a while phrases become like shapes or contours and the note names just become something in the back of your mind. Knowing as many chords as possible helps too because so much in music is simply broken triad chords and arpeggios.

I don't think you *could* sight read by reading each note separately because you could never keep up with the music. It'd probably also be incredibly fatiguing.

[riddlereader]

Here are some links to tips on sight reading that I have found useful:

https://www.yokewong.net/sightreading.html

https://www.soundfeelings.com/free/music-reading.htm

https://pws.prserv.net/usinet.danance/chorg/sightread.html

And here is one about playing without looking at your hands, which is useful for sight reading:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2577.msg22247.html#msg22247

Ed

[mattgreenecomposer]

Well, I dont know how old you are but I will put my 2 cents in...since I felt a few of the comments on here were just poor advice.  From experience....

I didn't start reading music until I was about 20, so I was passed the age where people learn like a "sponge."  Now Im one of the best sight readers I know and I  have a Masters Degree in music.

The best advice I can give you is do not look at your hands!  Sure you can look at your hands when you memorize a piece and practice individual exercises but when you are practicing reading absolutely DO NOT LOOK AT YOUR HANDS!  You need to familiarize yourself with the key board and where all the notes are.  I compare this to a PlayStation or XBox controller.  You look at the screen when you play XBox and never look at the controller b/c you know where all the buttons are.  Its the same idea. 
Start with just  5-10  notes in the middle of the keyboard (possibly hands alone even) and gradually expand. 

[faulty_damper]

But this assumes the pianist is well aware of keyboard geography.  Most are not.  Most pianists do not have absolute touch, either, unless they are blind.  In the beginning, students must look at the keyboard because they can visually check and learn the repeating patterns.

Your comparison with the keyboard and game console controllers only works if the pianist is stuck in five-finger positions.  The layout of a controller is such that everthing is under the fingers.  But this is not the case of keyboards where at no point will all fingers be over the keys.

And anyone who plays video games can remember when the new PS came out, they all had to familiarize themselves with an entirely new layout of the X O square, triagles by looking at them first.  But this process doesn't take long to master because it's only 4 buttons and are applied to blowing things up immediately with great satisfaction and thus are ingrained in memory.

Piano reading is quite different.  I wish there was a keyboard equivolent to Guitar Hero because that would require immediate reinforcement of keyboard geopraphy as it rewards immediately.  I wouldn't be surprised if a non-pianist who plays "Keyboard Hero" becomes better sightreaders than pianists who have been studying for more than 10 years.

[anna_crusis]

The easiest way I know of to improve keyboard geography is to play the pieces you know off by heart with your eyes closed. At first it is difficult, but gradually you build up a tangible mental image of the keyboard. I used to allow myself an occasional glance during tricky bits but after a while it became uneccessary.

[reegan]

You've been playing for two months and you are already complaining that your sightreading skill is un-developed?  I've been trying to learn Japanese for over 6 months and I'm still bad at it!

SR is a skill that needs to be developed, hopefully by using relatively easy musical materal with many easy to understand patterns.  Try the Notebook for Anna Magdalena Bach by JS Bach as it is a collection of relatively easy works he set down for his wife.  It's excellent musical material and you probably would not get bored with these excellent pieces of music.  Also, it can give you insight as to how music is constructed and how music evolved as well as an understanding of harmony if your teacher is able to guide you to see these things.  Since it is baroque period music, the keys are simple and you could master the harmonies by learning them.

SR is a skill that needs to be practiced daily for at least 15 un-interupted minutes with full concentration and focus.  This assumes that the material is suitable for your developing skills.  If not, these 15 minutes can be mentally painful.

Beyond this simple advice, you should perform a search for Sight Reading.  There is much information about it. 

hello im new here in this forum... hello to everyone!!!
do you have that Notebook for Anna Magdalena Bach ... if it's ok can you send it to me...
i'm playing piano for almost a year but i'm not that good in terms of sight reading... it's hard... i read something about sight reading that i need to close my eyes then play, i try it but its so hard up until now i'm trying...

[jepoy]

One more thing I'd like to emphasize is to develop the habit of counting (perhaps aloud first and then mentally later) through the piece so you would have a good handle on rhythm. In my case, I have overcome the problem of recognizing the notes but I still have to work on the rhythm.

Good luck!

[faulty_damper]

Rhythm is the part of reading that can be taken out of context and still be musical.  One mistake that poor readers do is focus at the noteheads for the rhythmic punctuation.  You should look at the stems and flags/beams for this information.

Noteheads: pitch
flags/beams: rhythm

Reading rhythm is actually very easy and most people can master most rhythms in a week.  But for some reason, once it is mixed with pitch finding, it becomes the most delayed aspect of reading: they are doing two relatively easy tasks at once which exponentially increases the difficulty.

The way I teach rhythm is by using modified french system sylables (ta,  ta-te, ta-pa-te-pe, ta-te-ti, etc.)  It's easy to hear and can be learned in a day for most adults but requires a week of carefully planned practice to be mastered.  What's nice about this is that just practicing it with another can be quite enjoyable as complex rhythms can be created and thus making music which reinforces the objective.

[riddlereader]

Any thoughts on Mark Phillip's book, "Sight-read Any Rhythm Instantly"?
Ed

[faulty_damper]

Yes, I have an opinion as I purchased that book with the recommendation of some forum members.

Phillips instructs that part of the difficulty of reading is the counting issue.  Many teachers teach by using the numerator of the time signature as the counting pattern - id est: if Time Signature is 3/4, you would count 1, 2, 3,  1, 2, 3... and so on.  I definitely agree that this can become very problematic as it requires your mind to keep the numbers in the correct order while performing another very complex task: sightreading.  As such, this method should be abandoned.

Instead, just memorize the rhythmic patterns and voila! I speak French.  This is actually a much improved method over the counting method which leads to the issue of performing these rhythms.

In performing these rhythms, Phillips prescribes mentally saying "hit" "don't hit", or "sing" "don't sing" etc. depending on the method of instrumental function but doing this in the back of the mind.  It's not as easy as it could be if you were to practice it this way and I don't really think this is necessary.


At this point, I should mention that I did not finish the prescribed course and hence I cannot comment on whether this method would be very effective.  However, in the meantime of not doing his course, I learned to read rhythms using a different method.  Rather, it's using sylables but instead of using words like "twinkle, twinkle, little star" (1+2+3+4 ) which can be confusing if the fundament of sylablization is not understood, I used a modified French syllable system.

The French syllable system is saying "ta-aa-aa-aa" for a whole note, "ta-aa" for half, "ta" for quarter, "ta-te" for two 8ths, and "ta-fa-te-fe" for 4 16th notes ("te" is pronounced "tay").  This is actually more effective than saying "twinkle twinkle... etc." because these syllables are non-sense syllables which have no meaning, whereas "twinkle twinkle" immediately gives a mental image of a shining star which interferes with the purpose.  I modified only one of them to give a more perceptive beat. Say "Ta-fa-te-fe".  Now say "Ta-pa-te-pe."  Notice the difference?

This method can be functionally learned by adults in one week.  More advanced applications can be learned in 2-3 weeks which would cover most complex rhythms.

The benefits of using unchanging syllables are immediately apparent - these nonsense syllables develop their own meaning and reinforces each other with just a bit of practice and can actually be very fun and entertaining, especially when there are a dozen other students learning it.

This method is similar to Phillips as the student will think in beats (the correct way to think) and not notes (the wrong way).  It also has a much improved relationship to syllablization by using set syllables that do not change.  And it's easier to learn.  But I don't know who else, besides myself, who teaches this method.

[dmc]

I just bought Phillips book off Amazon.  Thought it would be helpful as my sight reading needs work too.

Faulty, I took a college course once that taught in a manner similar to what you've described.  The only difference I recall was that 8th notes were designated using "tee" for ALL 8th notes (e.g. 3 8ths would be "tee tee tee") and 16th notes were indicated as "tee ree" (4 16ths = "tee ree tee ree").  I guess the thinking was that "tee ree" was easier to enunciate at faster tempos.  Dotted rhythms had special verbage as well.  They also taught the Kodaly hand method in combination with these.  Looking back, I wish I'd applied myself a little more.  It would be very helpful now.

[faulty_damper]

The sylables you describe are what is used by Kodaly-trained music teachers.  These syllablization patterns are usually taught to elementary school children.  It's usually not taught in colleges because it's assumed the students have a firm understanding of rhythm and thus not necessary (though reality is quite the contrary).

When I learned of these sylables, my reaction was the same with using substitute words like "twinkle twikle..." etc.  I didn't like it because it was difficult to feel the beat as the syllables doesn't give a good accent and it changes the syllables of the downbeat: a quarter note (ta) and two 8ths (ti ti) fit within the same beat yet the syllable changes for the first note.  This is more difficult especially if the rhythm contains dotted quarters - which "ti" is the downbeat?  It's also much more difficult to pronounce them at fast speed: ti ti ti ti ti ti ti... or ti ri ti ri ti ri ti ri...  The repeating "ti" requires your lips/tongue/jaw to repeat the same series unendingly which is very difficult.  The "ti ri" requires a more difficult tonguing for the "r" syllable which makes fast pronounciation difficult.

With the "ta-te", "ta-pa-te-pe" syllables I use, there are not these issues.  And it's very obvious what the rhythm is because of the different syllables.

Here's a basic list of the syllables I use:

whole note:   Ta- aa- aa- aa
dotted half:   Ta- aa- aa
half note:      Ta- aa
quarter note: Ta

two 8ths:    Ta-te
four 16ths:  Ta-pa-te-pe

triplets:      Ta-te-ti
sextuplets:  Ta-pa-te-pe-ti-pi

Notice that all beats begin with "Ta" and is never repeated within the same beat.  Notice also that all the sequences are very easy to say and repeat, even at fast speeds and for extended periods.

Advanced skills include tied notes and transposing these syllables to even shorter note values like 32nds which is very easy to learn once the above syllable patterns are learned .

[nyonyo]

If you have just learned piano for 2 months, you should not expect to be able to sight read fast. Even reading the notes, you cannot do it fast. Sight reading is a combination of several things such as reading notes, counting the notes and using the most efficient and correct fingering.

At this stage, you need to concentrate part by part first, do not expect to be able to play  all parts at the same time. It is too much.

[dmc]

With the "ta-te", "ta-pa-te-pe" syllables I use, there are not these issues.  And it's very obvious what the rhythm is because of the different syllables.

Here's a basic list of the syllables I use:

whole note:   Ta- aa- aa- aa
dotted half:   Ta- aa- aa
half note:      Ta- aa
quarter note: Ta

two 8ths:    Ta-te
four 16ths:  Ta-pa-te-pe

triplets:      Ta-te-ti
sextuplets:  Ta-pa-te-pe-ti-pi

Notice that all beats begin with "Ta" and is never repeated within the same beat.  Notice also that all the sequences are very easy to say and repeat, even at fast speeds and for extended periods.

Yes I see the benefit you're referring to.  So extrapolating the system for example to a dotted quarter note followed by an 8th note, would it be "ta-aa-te" ?

Two other questions:

1. How would you indicate a dotted 8th followed by a 16th ?  Do you always start with "ta" even though the downbeat is an 8th ?

2. Also, whats the difference between "pa" and "pe" on the 16ths ?

[shamu]

Does anyone else have trouble sight reading well on piano? I've been playing for just a little over 2 months. I get in the habit to memorize the song gradually because reading the notes as I'm playing doesn't work out too well for me. My sight reading is just absolutely terrible. I especially have trouble sight reading chords on the go. What can I do to improve? Any tips? Should I practice short exercises? Or maybe just continue with full scores? How should I read chords? From the bottom up?

Don't worry! I've been playing for 6 years and I still have some trouble sight reading on some things. If you are able to sight read at all after 2 months that is a great accomplishment! You should be proud of you're self!

[faulty_damper]

Yes I see the benefit you're referring to.  So extrapolating the system for example to a dotted quarter note followed by an 8th note, would it be "ta-aa-te" ?

Yes.  The "Ta-  Aa-te" would actually be learned later after the basics are mastered.  Also, the accompanying shorthand notaion would be taught soon afterwards:  I '/.

1. How would you indicate a dotted 8th followed by a 16th ?  Do you always start with "ta" even though the downbeat is an 8th ?

"Ta-- pe"  Yes, the point is to understand beats, not notes.  You are never counting but always feeling the beat.  If one were to count, it becomes very difficult to feel the beat because one would be thinking in terms of the lengths of notes.

2. Also, whats the difference between "pa" and "pe" on the 16ths?

There are two reasons:
1.  It is easier to say because "pa" follows "Ta" and "pe" follows "te".  Try the reverse and you'll understand it.
 
2.  The instructor will always correctly say the syllables in their correct location so there is a difference between "Ta-pa--" and Ta--- pe".  This is so students will correctly associate syllables with a specific rhythm and not be confused.


Also, to further reinforce these rhythmic syllables, shorthand notation is taught together.  In this way, not only do students hear and feel the beat and it's subdivisions but they also see it as well.  When they see the shorthand notation, they would immediately know how to read it.

For example:
 I  I  V I  reads "Ta -   Ta -   Ta-te-Ta"
 V V V I  reads "Ta-te-Ta-te-Ta-te-Ta"

What's interesting about teaching shorthand notation is that students focus on the meaning of the symbol (correct way) and not the position of the noteheads in relation to each other (wrong way.)  Part of the stumbling block of reading standard notation are the significance of noteheads but they only tell us one thing: Pitch.  It's not required to tell us rhythm.  If students learn to read standard notation first it takes a long time to be fluent in reading rhythms because they do not learn to disassociate pitch and rhythm because they do not understand they are each separate entities.

In a relatively short period of time when basic syllablization and shorthand notation are mastered, standard rhythmic notation are then substituted.  The trasition is actually very easy as shorthand looks very much like standard.  Note that noteheads are NOT used as they are unneccesary.   Noteheads indicate pitch and not rhythm.