sorabji - in the hothouse and toccata

[pianistimo]

these, plus his first sonata are printable here!  talk about dueling music.  i think some of it must be played with one's nose.

shall we discuss how to play some of the difficult places 'in the hothouse' first?  alistair?  did sorabji give any hints?

https://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Sorabji%2C_Kaikhosru_Shapurji

i've printed out the first 'two piano pieces'

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings

Interesting

[soliloquy]

https://www.bmic.co.uk/collection/pdfs/6803w.pdf

Enjoy.

[dnephi]

I'm not fond of either of these two.  The sonata is interesting but too difficult for my taste.  Same with the two pieces from 1920.

[pianistimo]

so, you think finnessy is more difficult, soliloquy?  or were you giving me some hints (on the first page).  i found them interesting to read.  did sorabji do more of this 'hint stuff.'  the only thing i see on the first page is an I with an umlat over it indicating that what follows is to be played an octave above the written notes. 

[ahinton]

so, you think finnessy is more difficult, soliloquy?

His name is "Finnissy" and the difficulties in some of his work are largely different to those in Sorabji's - a fact which is hardly surprising given how different they are as composers.

the only thing i see on the first page is an I with an umlat over it indicating that what follows is to be played an octave above the written notes.

The word is "umlaut" but what you see there is in any case a caret and not an umlaut.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

thanks, alistair.

and, btw - i am not going to judge this music on it's ability to wreck my mind - but, only on it's ability to disbelieve my own pianistic skills and reduce me to humililty.

[Nightscape]

The sonata no.1 is a terrifying piece - it always hastens my heart rate when I listen to it.

The technical demands of in the hothouse and the toccata are less than a lot of his pieces.  This makes them attractive for advanced pianists who have an interest in Sorabji but do not yet possess the superhuman technique to play his more mature compositions.  They are not as sophisticated as his later works (in the hothouse, beautiful as it is, gives only a glimpse into the exotic realm of Sorabji's nocturnes) but are by no means not worth playing.  I am working on these pieces myself for a recital in the spring, and I am also preparing a performing edition of them for my graduation project.  There are a number of errors, especially regarding accidentals, in the score.  It also contains no fingerings which would be immensely helpful in the toccata which in some places feels like it was written for something other than human hands.  The score could use some 'beautifying' as well - it feels like a Dover edition or something right now.

[soliloquy]

so, you think finnessy is more difficult, soliloquy?  or were you giving me some hints (on the first page).  i found them interesting to read.  did sorabji do more of this 'hint stuff.'  the only thing i see on the first page is an I with an umlat over it indicating that what follows is to be played an octave above the written notes. 

I just thought maybe after you saw that you'd think "oh, these Sorabji pieces aren't so bad" and give them a try ^^

[pianistimo]

wow.  Nightscape, I can't believe you are playing these for recital.  Perhaps you can fill us in on the accidentals that are off.  And, also the fingering and manner of playing that you have worked out.  (Did Sorabji ever play with his foot?)

And, Soliloquy, thanks for the vote of confidence.  Or, at least attempt.

[pianistimo]

ok.  first of all - what hothouse is he referring to?  and who is theodore jenkins? and what does tres lent mean?  and, here i am stuck on the tempo marking.  eighth note to 45 ou moins (what is that?)  oh - i see - he wants you do to math, too!  90 = quarter.  why didn't he just say so?

say, i only see imaginary bar lines.  what's going on with that?

also, why does sorabji add accidentals in the first line when no f# or e# is indicated.  and, the last triplet on the line - is lining up with the duple.  are we to assume that he wanted the last duple to be a shorter note in actuality?

as i see it, this sorabji was something of a conversationalist in his music.  creating controversy here and there about how to interpret it.  are there several ways of interpretation that are equally valid - or can one be scorched by playing sorabji wrong?

[berrt]

and what does tres lent mean? 

"very slowly"

ou moins (what is that?) 

"or less"

B.

[pianistimo]

oh dear.  hear i am stuck on beat three.  what are these dotted eighths for?  why the dots?  does it add value - or is it for looks?  i am tending to believe that, as with mysticism, we leave room for non-symmetry in bar lines.  after all - there is no TIME SIGNATURE!  does this mean that none of the measures have to follow any set rule as to number of beats per measure.  hopefully, it won't affect how many beats the quarter note gets.  if it does - it will drive me to suicide.  is that the purpose of pieces like this? 

thank you, berrt!

[pianistimo]

ok.  i have decided what i am going to do with the dotted eighths.  i am going to add a slight 32nd on to them and thereby slow down slightly that beginning before settling on the D.

and, i am taking the G# with the rh.  this is easy so far.  sounds like ives.  i actually kind of like that last chord (yikes!   what am i saying).

[pianistimo]

the scale - if you can call it that - seems to me to be:  G# A B C# DE F# (G#) 
quite an interesting sound from these notes (although some are naturalized or sharped).
now, you can further divide this 'scale' into two parts  (AB DE)  (G# C# F#)

how am i doing, alistair?  i have not read anything about sorabji excepting a little bit of his bio - so this is all just my perception.

[pianistimo]

now, in the next part (after the fermatas) it seems that he is 'switching scales' and changing several notes.  it now seems to be Ab Bb C Db Eb F Gb (Ab).  more black notes now.

ok. i see a deliberate alteration between these two 'scales' every several measures.

the trill is between Bb and A natural?

[Nightscape]

For a lot of in the hothouse, each bar has a different number of 8th notes in it.  The first 'bar' (denoted by the dotted line) has 9 8th notes in it.  I presume this is why he gave the metronome mark for the 8th note instead of the quarter note, since 9 is not evenly divisible by two.  You would take the low G# with your right hand in the next bar, another problem with the score is that hand divisions are not always clear and there are a number of redistributions that can be made to make the music easier to play.  Case in point, in bar three the last chord in the right hand is too big for many pianists to play without breaking or rolling it, but you can solve this problem by taking the lowest note of the (or two lowest notes) chord with the left hand, since it is not playing anything on that beat and you can hold the left hand chord with the pedal.  Later on in this piece however, there are passages that simply cannot be written as played (it would require three hands) and chords often have to be played as grace notes held by the pedal (this first occurs on the first bar of page 6 - how do you play that first beat as written without three hands?).  Choosing which chord to play ahead of the beat can be tricky as well.

[pianistimo]

thanks again for the insights.  i see this isn't amateur music.  did he write anything simple? 

i like challenges, though.  i am going to give a terrible rendition of it - page by page and then slowly over time (like with the grosse fugue) turn it into something manageably recognizable.  what for?  i don't know.

say, i like the augmented 7 chord in measure 6 (ending the pp section) - it sounds like a train.

has anyone ever heard the arrangement that was composed to accompany a reading of dr. seuss?  i have to think of the guys name - but it reminds me of this free form where one could literally start anywhere - or mix pages up - and it really wouldn't matter (at least right now to me).  it's the way you play it.

[Nightscape]

I'm not sure if he wrote anything simple.  If I recall, he was against that sort of thing (imagine that!).  This might be as simple as it gets, although there are definitely shorter piano pieces by him.

I think that everything should be taken in moderation... I believe that there is beauty in the most complex pieces of music - along the lines of Sorabji or Xenakis, but also beauty in the simplest pieces too, like some of the piano music of John Cage or Arvo Part.  It takes an open mind to embrace and love all music, something that I continually strive for.

[pianistimo]

but, you can't hum it.  definately no tune to cheer you up on a dreary night.  and yet, i know what you mean.  you listen to the tones or the series of notes that rings a chime or reminds you of some kind of mish-mashed sound - as debussy got so excited about.  when he was in the army he accidentally heard bugel sounds to turn out the lights at the same time as the convent bells down the way.  it was totally rapturous for him.