piano interpretations

[matterintospirit]

After recently viewing a video of Lang Lang performing Chopin nocturne no. 8 in D, I felt a distinct feeling of sea sickness probably due to the highly exaggerated rubato and possibly from watching his eyes roll back in his head----was he giving us some sign of his sheer ecstasy at the sound of the long awaited delayed note?? wow. so touching. I'm so happy for him. Then there is Pollini who tears through the piece like a bat out of hell as if to say "if you think I'm going to dish out some tired sentimental crap just to make you happy---forget it. Chop Chop. There-- it's finished---don't like it? too bad!" This approach I find much more admirable, but I do think there is a happy medium. There is a strength in Chopin too often overlooked. Phrases sound much better played with directness. The integrity and strength of the music is revealed. You see a different Chopin. Robert Schumann aptly described Chopin's music---"Chopin's works are a cannon concealed in flowers."

[rob47]

https://blogs.guardian.co.uk/music/2006/12/gavrilov_on_chopin.html

[matterintospirit]

Thanks so much!! I listened to the F#---what an inspiration----wonderful! will listen to more tommorow as it is getting late. Thanks again.

[ramseytheii]

Interesting!  I saw Gavrilov last year in Munich play a program alternating Chopin Etudes and Nocturnes, and in the second half, Prokofiev 10 pieces from Romeo & Juliet.  It was terrific playing, especially in the NOcturnes, which had the utmost freedom, but always spoke recognizable, human emotions.  The reviewer was very negative, as Germans tend to treat all music as if it was written objectively like Beethoven.  But the effect was undeniable.

And this is coming from a person that absolutely hated Gavrilov's early playing, full of banging and bad taste.  He has transformed from a fathead virtuoso into a true artist.

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

'fathead virtuoso!'  - you make me laugh as much as when i read cmg's descriptions of pianists.

i wish somebody would promote my teacher carl cranmer.  when i first heard him play - i though t it was a recording in his studio.  how could someone that young have this sort of feeling?  then, i thought - he's really exposing his feelings in his music.  this takes a lot of courage.  i think it is the reason he has placed or won in competitions.  people don't want to just hear the music - they want the soul of the music.  not very many people give this.  and, it's hard to emulate this one quality in anyone.  it's basically something that you were trained to listen to and for.  and, i notice he always pushes the limit.  instead of a basic crescendo - he exaggerates it just a bit.  that way - on stage - it's not an unheard crescendo but works across the stage to the audience and impacts them emotionally.  he might carry this crescendo further than written.

do you think it is this 'exaggeration' that students find hard to emulate.  it's like you're not being fully yourself - but exaggerating to get an effect across.  and yet, if you don't do it - you're just like everyone else.  boring. *also, it makes piano performance extremely hard work.  not just playing the notes - but, pulling every last bit of emotion out of the piece.  in some ways - i think playing the piano is similar to acting.  you want a certain result from your audience so you have to balance who you are with who the composer is and find a happy medium (or a little over-the-top medium) to successfully get a meaning across.

you can listen to carl here:

https://www.carlcranmer.com/bio.html  click on 'listen' - to the left.

[pianistimo]

try the nocturne in C major by Poulenc.  I absolutely love his rendition.

[matterintospirit]

'fathead virtuoso!'  - you make me laugh as much as when i read cmg's descriptions of pianists.

i wish somebody would promote my teacher carl cranmer.  when i first heard him play - i though t it was a recording in his studio.  how could someone that young have this sort of feeling?  then, i thought - he's really exposing his feelings in his music.  this takes a lot of courage.  i think it is the reason he has placed or won in competitions.  people don't want to just hear the music - they want the soul of the music.  not very many people give this.  and, it's hard to emulate this one quality in anyone.  it's basically something that you were trained to listen to and for.  and, i notice he always pushes the limit.  instead of a basic crescendo - he exaggerates it just a bit.  that way - on stage - it's not an unheard crescendo but works across the stage to the audience and impacts them emotionally.  he might carry this crescendo further than written.

do you think it is this 'exaggeration' that students find hard to emulate.  it's like you're not being fully yourself - but exaggerating to get an effect across.  and yet, if you don't do it - you're just like everyone else.  boring. *also, it makes piano performance extremely hard work.  not just playing the notes - but, pulling every last bit of emotion out of the piece.  in some ways - i think playing the piano is similar to acting.  you want a certain result from your audience so you have to balance who you are with who the composer is and find a happy medium (or a little over-the-top medium) to successfully get a meaning across.

you can listen to carl here:

https://www.carlcranmer.com/bio.html  click on 'listen' - to the left.

[matterintospirit]

I'm not sure that exaggerated is the word.  Maybe not held back? Music doesn't need exaggeration in order to speak to people. Some people think that when music is "expressive" that it is exaggerated and it is in bad taste. They don't understand that Music is a dramatic art---as my Russian professor wants said to me at my lesson---"YOU ARE ACTOR!YOU UNDERSTAND THIS??!! Each piece of music has it's own soul, seperate from ours so to speak. As far as the works of the masters, we need to to elevate ourselves to rise to the occasion---discover the "soul" of the piece, composer, etc. and where it fits into our personal world. Listen to recording of Horowitz plaing the Schumann Arabesque in C. Not much "exaggeration" there---the audience is held captive by it's elusive subtlety and breathless development.

[pianistimo]

very good points!  perhaps it is how some people are raised - to not show so much emotion.  therefore, it is harder to perform and show emotion.  as if, somehow it is a weakness instead of a strength.  i think teachers can bring this quality out - by explaining - as yours did - about acting.

i was sort of put back when asked 'what do you feel right now' when playing the mozart fantasy.  i usually relegate music to 'over there' and me 'over here.'  like - i am expressing what the composer wrote.  so - frankly, i had no feelings to explain. 

i told my teacher that i knew mozart composed this for his landlord's wife and that perhaps he was sick of her (or them) sneaking into his apartment and looking at music and possibly taking some randomly if he didn't pay the rent.  or, (didn't say this out loud) - if she was sneaking up the steps to ask him to give her some you-know-what in return for rent.  in any case, i thought he was perturbed about being bothered so much and the multi-directional way this fantasy goes makes me think he was seeking some solace from all this sneaking around.  a place of his own.  with privacy.  unlike the tenant and landlord situation - where they had a key to his apartment and also, that he would constantly have to let them know what monies he made and what he was working on. 

now, if that isn't overanalyzing, i don't know what is.  but, this is just the way i work.  then, he said - ok - just take the beginning here.  what does it remind you of.   i said, ' the curel advertisement where a croc walks by a woman.'  you have these contrasts of texture and also the sneaky way of the beginning movement.

watching bilson on tv yesterday - he explained the first movement of this mozart fantasy as similar to beethoven's later 'pathetique.'  he said - give the first note an umph and then wait for the sound to dissipate.  i hadn't thought of that - and yet - i relate to bilson.  i mean - if someone just asked me to 'dance' the music -i wouldn't have my feelings up that level yet.  how can people improve their feelings?  for a year - i pursued avenues to feelings.  i'm not sure i have come up with anything excepting pinching myself.

[pianistimo]

what i think my teacher wanted is for me to specify a certain feeling (and to have a very large vocabulary for feelings).  i am curious if we could list them so that younger performers -whether they have these feelings or not - can attempt to understand and feel them by imagination.  as an actor.  even if they cannot work up the literal feeling in 1 second.

also- it probably wouldn't hurt performing pianists to take an acting class and actually get 'into the character.'  mozart kinda took his talent forgranted because he was able to access these inner feelings quite rapidly and change them at will.  perhaps with his work in opera?  to visualize a scene or character feeling a certain way.

[counterpoint]

perhaps it is how some people are raised - to not show so much emotion.  therefore, it is harder to perform and show emotion.  as if, somehow it is a weakness instead of a strength.  i think teachers can bring this quality out - by explaining - as yours did - about acting.

Yes, I think, because people are different in showing/hiding their emotions, it's an individual thing to say: you should exaggerate or you shouldn't exaggerate so much!

And then it's sort of fashion: at times, people liked to play very "cool" and at other times they liked to uncover their soul to the extreme. So there's no absolute right and wrong, but you have to find the point, where the music transports the message the best at that moment.

[matterintospirit]

To me the emotional  "ques" come not from within, but from  comprehending the peice of music as a whole---something quite outside ourselves so to speak. I think you are talking about the Mozart Fantasy in D? If not here goes anyway. It, to me was a very, very difficult peice to grasp, make meaning of etc. ---a real bad ass cryptogram. My Russian professor at the time described the piece as a "psycodrama"---the opening a brief overture and the curtain goes up---the play with it's cast of characters appear telling the story. this worked for me. He used to refer to Mozart's Music---"like candy" referring to the total refinement of the music and thereby the tone. I recently heard an accomplished pianist play this piece. The runs sounded like Lizst and the opening arpeggios sounded like Rachmaninov. He took the allegretto section at the end at a raceneck speed---the music in the end was totally lost, like a horse has just broken through the gate before the race was to begin. I think you have to be careful to not over persoanlize music interpretation and turn it into something that doesn't make sense. I compare being an interpreter of classical music most closely to being an actor, You have the script, it's already written. now you need to bring this character to life. But this character has parameters, and if you go to outside the parameters, the character becomes someone else, and we might begin to question what this character has to do with the play.

[pianistimo]

i was referring to the other fantasy in c minor, kv 475 - but, still it's almost the same way - and yes! it is a psychodrama too!  and, i remember my teacher saying the same thing about noting characters after the stage is set. 

counterpoint seems to be spot-on in the sense of some people naturally being more expressive and others needing to knock it up a notch. 

but, also - as you say - some pieces are somewhat psychotic -and require you to switch gears like you are a madwoman/man.  this, to me - is where opera comes in.   if it's a mini-opera - you just set characters and then make up some wierd story to go with the piece.  voila - memorized.

i like what you said about parameters.  very astute - because - as you say, it can turn into somekind of garbage.

[pianistimo]

something else came to mind.  some performers are self-confessed classical-romantics and others are romantic-classicists. 

i tend to think of myself as the former and prefer to put a golden mean on chopin, too.  whereas - equally valid would be the person who gets swept up in several sections and doesn't know what time it is.  to me, what's most important is a feeling of the piece as a coherent whole.  if it's off-kilter (or written to be this way) - i feel ill at ease. 

for instance, i heard a rendition of beethoven's 9th that started wayy too slow, imo, and didn't go anywhere.  i was starting to get frustrated to the point of regurgitating.  the wrong tempo at the beginning affects everything else.  or should.  in this case , it did - but didn't make matters any better. 
 
ps about the classical romantic - or romantic classicist - i think that this can be seen in a pianists childhood.  are they obsessive-compulsive?  likely the former.  do they let problems seems like 'water off a ducks back?'  likely they are the latter.

[matterintospirit]

oh pianistimo i don't know what to tell you. i don't like to label my self as anything in particular. in fact i don't like to think about myself at all. beter to just think about the music. if the music is meaniningful to me and i have a good grasp on what i want to communicate ,what reality i want to communicate or whatever the hell you want to call it(words so fall short), then I know it will mean something to the listener---it will transform my little old self and the listener and become a new "experience"-----hopefully.

[leonidas]

There is room for everything in art, in the infinite expanse of possibilities, who can take it upon themself to decide what is worthy and what isn't? Either listen or don't.

I like extremes in performance, I like moderation sometimes too, it all has it's place.

[matterintospirit]

There is room for everything in art, in the infinite expanse of possibilities, who can take it upon themself to decide what is worthy and what isn't? Either listen or don't.

I like extremes in performance, I like moderation sometimes too, it all has it's place.

I can take it upon myself. I also don't mind being wrong. Have a nice day. 

[leonidas]

Of course, however you speak for the individual, noone can deny that something could appeal to one person, and by that very fact, it makes itself worthy.

[matterintospirit]

Of course, however you speak for the individual, noone can deny that something could appeal to one person, and by that very fact, it makes itself worthy.

Yes, it could be worthy unless the person is  stupid or has bad taste, which doesn't necessarily make what appeals to them, worthless--(I know, I know, I'm simply not allowed to decide what good taste is--- alright already!) Seriously,  I just don't beleive in a world without standards. To put it in the xtreme, murder appeals to murderers, but that does't make it "worthy" or desirable, that is to say, have value to most of us who would like to continue  living. All things are not equal. Not even fruit flies are equal. And this is my beleif and no one has to believe in it. (although all are invited!)

[leonidas]

Art and music in particular is different, it hurts noone, and if one doesn't like it, move away or switch it off.

Music can't really be explicit in the way other things can, it can only be implicit.

I find it ridiculous that a person can be offended by a series of pitch relations and deem something they don't personally like as 'bad taste'.

It's a big step of maturity to go from calling something 'crap' to saying 'I don't like it'.

[counterpoint]

It's a big step of maturity to go from calling something 'crap' to saying 'I don't like it'.

Yes, that's true!

[term]

I find it ridiculous that a person can be offended by a series of pitch relations

[matterintospirit]

Art and music in particular is different, it hurts noone, and if one doesn't like it, move away or switch it off.

Music can't really be explicit in the way other things can, it can only be implicit.

I find it ridiculous that a person can be offended by a series of pitch relations and deem something they don't personally like as 'bad taste'.

It's a big step of maturity to go from calling something 'crap' to saying 'I don't like it'.

couldn't agree less.

[ramseytheii]

couldn't agree less.

Now we're getting somewhere!  

Walter Ramsey
 

[matterintospirit]

Now we're getting somewhere!  

Walter Ramsey
 

thnx rams. you have restored my faith in the world. now i can know who i am (and who i am not.)

[lostinidlewonder]

You open a can of worms when you talk about what is good musical interpretation. In my mind there is no wrong only better. And what is better to me is not always better to others, so it is absoluetly useless to say what is better, it is something you need to keep to yourself because it offers no creative input or help.

You can write 100 pages highlight all the little bits and pieces you are not agreeing with. But instead you start talking about things you like, then you will find you have a lot less to talk about. When I sit to judge a competition I do not consider what I don't like and mark from that, I only listen to what I like. This is a healthy attitude to have, also as a teacher you do not disgrace students for what interprets as bad to your ear, but highlight what you think sounds pleasing.

Music critics, many of them die very angry and annoyed people, never satisfied, in fact enjoying to say what they don't like instead of what they like. The most scathing review I ever gave to a musical performance was, I thought they dressed well, and that was it Who realy cares if its a wrong note here, or excessive this there, you don't prove that you are smart by saying this, its just your opinion and it is not an all encompassing truth. The critical mind must realise that they do not have to prove anything to anyone (although sometimes critical thinking people get together and encourage each other)

[matterintospirit]

You open a can of worms when you talk about what is good musical interpretation. In my mind there is no wrong only better. And what is better to me is not always better to others, so it is absoluetly useless to say what is better, it is something you need to keep to yourself because it offers no creative input or help.

You can write 100 pages highlight all the little bits and pieces you are not agreeing with. But instead you start talking about things you like, then you will find you have a lot less to talk about. When I sit to judge a competition I do not consider what I don't like and mark from that, I only listen to what I like. This is a healthy attitude to have, also as a teacher you do not disgrace students for what interprets as bad to your ear, but highlight what you think sounds pleasing.

Music critics, many of them die very angry and annoyed people, never satisfied, in fact enjoying to say what they don't like instead of what they like. The most scathing review I ever gave to a musical performance was, I thought they dressed well, and that was it Who realy cares if its a wrong note here, or excessive this there, you don't prove that you are smart by saying this, its just your opinion and it is not an all encompassing truth. The critical mind must realise that they do not have to prove anything to anyone (although sometimes critical thinking people get together and encourage each other)

True. Horowitz always said "if you want to please the critics, don'y play TOO loud, TOO fast" etc. etc.

[counterpoint]

Music critics, many of them die very angry and annoyed people, never satisfied, in fact enjoying to say what they don't like instead of what they like.

And in most of their articles, they tell more about themselves than about the musical performances. 

[totallyclassics]

WOW!  What a thread!  I can't tell you how relieved I am to find others talking about what I have been struggling with for the last few months! 

I feel music VERY easily, and when I am by myself, I allow myself the freedom to express in the privacy of my own living room!!  I WANT to be able to let go and do that in performance, but I feel so exposed or vulnerable.  I think because those feelings that come from the music are interpreted in a very personal manner.    Playing and performing for others can be SO revealing.    I took drama many years ago!  I was never very good in drama!   I was too timid to REALLY let myself go into character in front of a crowd!   I can't explain this, and I DON'T like it.   

My teachers, I have 3 that have heard me play recently.  They all tell me that  they feel I am "holding back, scared, unsure of myself"    They talk about the music sounding choked.

I know the difference because when I am alone, I get EXACTLY the sound I want, and I really wish I could perform in this manner.   It is the difference between a cheerleader really getting up there and cheering with crisp clean, firm moves, and a begninner cheerleader who is not sure what she /he is doing.     

I have only been playing for 3 years, and have only performed once.    I have been told I have everything it takes to perform very well, I just have to "believe" in myself.   I am playing  advanced repetoire for a 3rd year adult student.   

Is this "acting", or the ability to get into character and stay with it, something that improves with time?    I  HAVE gotten MUCH better in that area.   I initially started in the "asking permission stage", then gradually moved to the "attitude" stage.....carry the attitude and the permission to the keyboard...  I am now at the stage where I have tasted "crossing over the threshold", and into character, only to quickly jump right back to the other side!   
The acting thing, while it feels good, is almost an out of body experience!  An "out of control" experience, although it should feel completely like the music is playing us and no need for worry!   

Anyway, just a lot of thoughts, and again VERY happy others are dealing with these thoughts and feeling too!  I thought it was just me!  I have been struggling with this for about 2 years out of the 3 I have been playing!    It has truly just been the last semester that things are starting to change a bit!   Just wondering if there is anything special that can be done to speed up the process, or if I must just go through the stages, at a snails pace!

Thanks for starting this thread!  I welcome ALL comments!   Even ones from those that think my thoughts are strange! 

[lostinidlewonder]

... I feel music VERY easily, and when I am by myself, I allow myself the freedom to express in the privacy of my own living room!!  I WANT to be able to let go and do that in performance, but I feel so exposed or vulnerable...

I know the difference because when I am alone, I get EXACTLY the sound I want, and I really wish I could perform in this manner.

I remember when I was younger and performed for a crowd I felt like I needed to impress them. I would play the showy pieces louder and faster than normal and in the end it sounded different to what I would do alone in practice. We have to question whether the music we are playing is us or us the music? This definately is effected by the attitude we take. Why do you play the piano, what do you love about it? In the end you find it is not about impressing other people.

I use to care a lot about what people thought about my playing, but you find that it doesn't help you much. Even if people are full of praise it can be damaging to yourself because you can become satisfied with your work and not push yourself further. And critique should never ever hurt you if it is constructive, all other critique you can simply ignore because there are stupid people out there who just like to pull people down to their failure thinking.

It is a great risk to perform because there are no retakes, you have to run that performance gauntlet and keep going! If you are thinking while playing; oh these people are watching me..... I better not stuff this up people will think im bad etc etc, these thoughts will stuff you up and you have to learn to concerntrate listening to yourself produce music. If you learn to listen to yourself make music with enough focus you can learn to block out pertty much all other thoughts.

Often performers must learn to be very apathetic with what negative opinions others might have with your playing... This is harder for some than most, it can be a real psychological fear which never leaves you, but you find your way to live with it. What is the worst that could possibly happen anyway? You stop in the middle of the piece and can never recover? So what? Do you really think people will be thinking, oh remember that guy, he's the one that stuffed up on stage, oh look at him, lets laugh at him and think badly about his music playing..... If you meet anyone who remembers you stuffing up on stage and thinks about it constantly they really don't have much to think about in their life do they?

[totallyclassics]

Thanks Lostinidlewo!

The last two paragraphs restated what I have told myself, and what my teachers have told me!  They all have said, "Everything is there, you just have to believe it!"  They have all heard me play well, but somehow, when performance nears, it all goes out the window!   I was told exactly what you said about "listening" from my current teacher. She says that if I learn to really listen, the beauty and concentration will take my mind off of negative thinking.  I have experienced that as well.  I have been there!  The first time I performed on stage, (just prior to the actual recital!), it was just for my teacher.  However, I was so in awe of the sound coming from that 9 ft Steinway in that hall, I completely forgot about the fear!  It was suddenly all about the music!  My teacher was amazed at the openness I played with!     However, when the actual recital came, just 30 minutes later, the listening was sporadic!   I am hoping that it was because it was my FIRST performance.  I am hoping that as I perform more, I will get a little more comfortable.  I have had EXCELLENT teachers, and I agree with EVERYTHING you said as well.   

Music is too beautiful, and deserves to be shared, and yet we can't share it if we aren't able to let go of our fears.  To me, it's like a speaker who tries to give a persuasive speech! It is not going to be convincing if the speaker is not convinced! 

Music, while in many ways is similar, I have to remember that I (ME Personally!), do not have to convince anyone of anything........the music will speak for itself if I allow it too.
I just have to relax , listen, and enjoy, so that others can too!   I know this, sometimes it just helps to hear it over and over again from others who know and have overcome the same fears!  I have to SHARE the music with others.  It is up to them to decide whether they like it, and up to me to not care what others think!  Sort of!
 

Thanks!

[totallyclassics]

I have another question!

If a teacher can listen to you and tell you are playing "closed"  can the audience tell just from listening that you are "closed" or nervous.  Can you hear it in the music?  Or, can you just give yourself away by shaking arms and fingers?  I learned to control the shaking, I just can't control the inside fears!   I wonder if people can see right through me just by listening to the music.   I guess that is how I feel exposed!  As if the music says something about me personally and others can read me like a book.   
I know that is so silly, and that is where it becomes ego vs music, but it is hard not to feel exposed!    Sometimes when I watch others perform, I will wonder why they chose that piece of music, and why that piece is special to them, and howand if they are personallizing the music, and how much of it is "them!"   Sometimes they play out the characters so well, I wonder what part of the playing is them or acting!
Of course it does not make me think badly of them at all, I am just curious!  People choose music for different reasons.  Love, tragic loss, romance, cuteness, funny, angry, mystery etc.    I ALWAYS want to know why a composer wrote something and during what time period.  It helps me understand the intention of the composer.   I think I just want to be understood when I perform, but only musically!  Not for people to think that I AM what I play.....although parts of me are sometimes!   
This has all been recent in the recent discovery of what occurs when we perform, or even play!  I guess it is a childish perspective......thinking as a child, "I wonder if they know what I am thinking by the way I play!"    Mozart is a GREAT example!!
Mozart plays many parts, but he is VERY bold and cocky "Show -offy!" at times.   To get that accross and pull Mozart's intention off well, you have to play cocky and bold.  I don't want people to think that I am like that!   I don't want people to associate what I play or how I play a piece, to who I am as a person!    I wonder if famous actors/actresses go through that!

So, I know that was a lot of useless psychological rambling!  I am processing!  That is how I process!  Just wondering if anyone else thinks things like this!    I am working through this, and I KNOW  reality and reason will prevail!!   Instead of irrational worry!
I know this is what this is!  That's what is so silly about it!!  Funny almost!  Bordering Psychotic!!   Music is too much fun for all this worry!!!  Believe me, I don't obsess over it!  I just go through about a one week, just prior to recital moment!!    (GETTING CLOSE!!)

Thanks all!!