Human Rights Act

[thalbergmad]

And how much do the lawyers cost? (and who pays for them?).

Millions and you and me both pay towards it, but if the Act was repealed, they would have a much harder time of it and the whole process of removing undesirables would be quicker and cheaper.

Thal

[ahinton]

Millions

And the rest...

and you and me both pay towards it,

I do my best to avoid taxpaying but I don't pretend to be perfect...

but if the Act was repealed, they would have a much harder time of it and the whole process of removing undesirables would be quicker and cheaper.

Thal

Not so - for even if every country that has such an act or its approximate equivalent were to agree to repeal all such acts simultaneously (about as likely as my writing an opera), those acts would be replaced by other and more pieces of substitute legislation which would almost inevitably be more complex and therefore cause yet greater confusion and at the same time ensure that the international lawyers would earn even more. Don't forget that, if one wishes to be elected to serve as a political representative in what is quaintly called a democracy, it almost behoves one first to have acquired at least one law degree...

Best,

Alistair

[prometheus]

He is in prison, [...]. How has he been punished?

He is in prison. He lost his freedom. Now you may think he should be beheaded instead. But don't say he isn't punished.

I want him deported. The Human Rights Act prevents this as he "might" be tortured in his Country of origin. That is why i want the Act repealed.

Didn't he commit a crime? You want him to escape his punishment?

One 6th of the prison population of the UK, were not born here. Keeping them here is a disgusting waste of taxpayers money.

It's called justice. Yeah, it costs a lot of money.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Britain today:

The police can, with no warning, shoot dead an unarmed and completely innocent man on the grounds that he was seen leaving a building which was under surveillance and he was consequently SUSPECTED of terrorist links..

We cannot even deport trash like Abu Hamza who is KNOWN to have terrorist links, was known to be preaching jihad (surely this consititutes treason?) , and he doesn't even seem to be getting given a hard time in prison.

Something is very very wrong.

[thalbergmad]

Didn't he commit a crime? You want him to escape his punishment?

Being deported would be a greater punishment than that he is receiving at the moment.

He has got a roof over his head, he is getting well fed, protected from other inmates and getting the best medical treatment for his poor little hook and ingrowing toenail.

When he is released (probably half way through his sentence or less), he will be free to restart his career as a state ponce and hate preacher.

Punishment, don't make me laugh.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Not so - for even if every country that has such an act or its approximate equivalent were to agree to repeal all such acts simultaneously (about as likely as my writing an opera), those acts would be replaced by other and more pieces of substitute legislation which would almost inevitably be more complex and therefore cause yet greater confusion and at the same time ensure that the international lawyers would earn even more. Don't forget that, if one wishes to be elected to serve as a political representative in what is quaintly called a democracy, it almost behoves one first to have acquired at least one law degree...

https://www.ice.gov/pi/news/newsreleases/articles/070816buffalo.htm

Other countries manage it and so could we. Replacement legislation does not have to be more complex.

Our Government has deportation targets that they are not hitting. Ministers know what is hindering the process and eventually this Act will go.

Thal

[prometheus]

Being deported would be a greater punishment than that he is receiving at the moment.

He wasn't punished with being deported.  And I don't see why anyone should.

He has got a roof over his head, he is getting well fed, protected from other inmates and getting the best medical treatment for his poor little hook and ingrowing toenail.

When he is released (probably half way through his sentence or less), he will be free to restart his career as a state ponce and hate preacher.

Punishment, don't make me laugh.

That's what happened. We punish people by putting them in jail. And then we release them again.

[ahinton]

https://www.ice.gov/pi/news/newsreleases/articles/070816buffalo.htm

Other countries manage it and so could we. Replacement legislation does not have to be more complex.

Maybe so, but just as keeping people in prison costs the taxpayer money, so does the entire panoply of deportation procedures and the latter also risks invinting reprisals; I'm not, of course, suggesting that this of itslf means that there is no reason to deport anyone - just that there's no such thing as an other than expensive lunch where this kind of thing is concerned. No one can be deported from any country without laws supposedly governing deportation being in place and those laws cost a fortune to create, change and carry out. Another issue, of course, is the risk of wrongful conviction; we've had our fair share of that in UK when people have been imprisoned, sometimes for many years and then released as a consequence of their original conviction being overturned and there can be no reasonable expectation that the conviction of illegal aliens for terrorist or other criminal activities will necessarily be any safer than those of legitimate citizens.

Bear in mind also that very conceivable law and regulation ever devised by mankind has been and will continue to be bent by someone somewhere to his/her advantage and that this is just one reason why laws will forever become more complex and, as a consequence, more expensive and require ever more lawyers and legislators to maintain this ever-burgeoning industry; it has been said with good reason, for example, that the tax laws of many "civilised" countries are as complex as they are mainly beacuse of the loopholes that have been found in those laws when they were simple...

This government has deportation targets that they are not hitting. Ministers know what is hindering the process and eventually this Act will go.

Thal

Perhaps they are either short-staffed or there is an insufficiency of will to meet those targets, either through lack of interest, the risk of PR gaffes or fear or internal and/or external reprisals...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

He wasn't punished with being deported.  And I don't see why anyone should.

That's what happened. We punish people by putting them in jail. And then we release them again.

You have a better solution?

Anyone who preaches death to the people of the Country in which he resides should be deported.

He will most likely only serve half of his sentence. This prison he is staying in is probably better then a lot of Bed & Breakfast establishments.

My solution is deportation.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Perhaps they are either short-staffed or there is an insufficiency of will to meet those targets, either through lack of interest, the risk of PR gaffes or fear or internal and/or external reprisals...

Deportations are being carried out, but not at the rate promised.

If we fear reprisals, we would never be able to enforce any law.

Thal

[prometheus]

My solution is deportation.

You mean moving them to another country? But then they won't be punished. And you can only move people to another country if they have that nationality.

[thalbergmad]

You mean moving them to another country? But then they won't be punished. And you can only move people to another country if they have that nationality.

Being held in English prisons is not really punishment. Take a look at Ford prison. I have seen worse Health Spa's.

For many terrorists, being returned to the shithole from whence they came is punishment enough. In the case of Hamza, he can be deported to Egypt where he was born. From there, he could be delivered to the Yemen Government where he could receive a different kind of punishment than that he is supposedly receiving at the moment.

I doubt this will ever happen, as we have to consider the poor little mans Human Rights. If he was deported, he might end up needing 2 hooks.

All toghether now, AGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHhhhh, what a shame.

Thal

[prometheus]

Going to prison is a punishment.

[pianistimo]

the last of the human rights - in the list of acts - is one that people should not complain or speak ill of any of the above acts.  is that not a limitation on the freedom of speech?  it just seems strange to list a finite number of freedoms and then say 'don't complain.'

i find it much different than the constitution - which are laws which defend differences of opinion in peaceful manners.  in the usa we have the right to stage a protest or say something that doesn't agree with what others are saying in government.  but, to take away the right of free speech is a fundamental basic right of humans.

therefore - these rights are meaningless.  a way to determine exactly what you own.  it's ludicrous.  the right to bear arms isn't going to come our way from 'them.' and, obviously not less taxation.  we'll be taxed by our own governments and then also have other taxes on top of that by a world govenment organization.

[mephisto]

We cannot even deport trash like Abu Hamza who is KNOWN to have terrorist links, was known to be preaching jihad (surely this consititutes treason?)

Surely you don't know the meaning of the word Jihad.

[richard black]

I'm not sure the HRA itself has much to do with the UK govt's treatment of Hamza etc. There seems to be some sort of undeclared policy of trying to placate militant Muslims going on just now, presumably on the basis that anything else may be seen as persecution. I'm not sure I agree with it myself and it's sure as hell pissing off plenty of non-Muslims, indeed it's pissing off some of the non-militant Muslims (i.e. most of the UK Muslims) too. But anyway, invoking the HRA is, as far as I can see, a bit of an excuse rather than the ultimate justification. The ideas behind the HRA are certainly good ones.

And as for Lockerbie, that still looks - has always looked - like a bit of a fit-up.

[thalbergmad]

Going to prison is a punishment.

Going to Butlins is punishment, our prisoners get treated better.

They get a roof over their heads for no rent, 3 hot meals a day, a nice gym, best medical treatment, free job training and if they are good boys, they are let out on day trips.

Cat A prisoners are probably the only ones that could be considered to be receiving punishment.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Surely you don't know the meaning of the word Jihad.

Ok, I admit, I used the term somewhat imprecisely, in the "holy war against the infidels" sense which it is often used in Anglicised media sources, when I should have just said that he was inciting terrorist acts and violence, etc, against the nation which, for some reason, allowed him to settle there. As I said, I don't see why this does not constitute treason.

[rob47]

Jihad: a religious crusade; fanatical crusade
Jihad, Butlerian: (see also Great Revolt) -- the crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots begun in 201 B.G and concluded in 108 B.G.  Its chief commandment remains in the O.C. Bible as "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind."

Herbert, Frank - "Terminology of the Imperium", DUNE.  Victor Gollancz Ltd: London,  1974.

 

[timothy42b]

I know nothing of the HRA so this is a very general comment.

Most of you seem to be thinking very short term - what should we do with this particular bad guy.

But the world faces an ongoing continuing production of bad guys.  In order to reduce that you need to gradually improve the image of "good" countries. 

Some feel we can do this better by demonstrating fair treatment, human rights, etc.  Basically showing the benefits of a free society.

Others think it is best to outdo the terrorists, proving we can be more punitive brutal than their regimes are.  (I think I detect that sentiment here.  Notably in pianistimmo.)

In the long run, which do you think will work?  Which world do you want to live in? 

[ahinton]

Anyone who preaches death to the people of the Country in which he resides should be deported.

A wholly understandable sentiment, of course, but deported to where? A country in which doing that is not against the law? In other words, how is deportation alone a "solution"? - is it not instead a mere movement of the problem from one location to another?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Deportations are being carried out, but not at the rate promised.

If we fear reprisals, we would never be able to enforce any law.

Thal

That would be the case only if we were to fear such reprisals as a consequence of the breach of any and all laws rather than those concerned here; this is hardly likely.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Being held in English prisons is not really punishment. Take a look at Ford prison. I have seen worse Health Spa's.

For many terrorists, being returned to the shithole from whence they came is punishment enough. In the case of Hamza, he can be deported to Egypt where he was born. From there, he could be delivered to the Yemen Government where he could receive a different kind of punishment than that he is supposedly receiving at the moment.

I doubt this will ever happen, as we have to consider the poor little mans Human Rights. If he was deported, he might end up needing 2 hooks.

All toghether now, AGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHhhhh, what a shame.

Thal

Without discussing any specific case, it has to be borne in mind that not every country of origin will accept the return of deportees in any case.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Without discussing any specific case, it has to be borne in mind that not every country of origin will accept the return of deportees in any case.

True, i wonder if Scotland would have you back.

Thal

[ahinton]

True, i wonder if Scotland would have you back.

Thal

I have no idea and, although I've never been denied visitor's rights there, this is hardly surprising, since I have yet to acquire the status of deportee, so your wonderment here accordingly seems somewhat misplaced.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Without discussing any specific case, it has to be borne in mind that not every country of origin will accept the return of deportees in any case.

Indeed, but you do not have to deport to the Country of Origin, since some of our imprisoned terrorists are wanted by other countries.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Most of you seem to be thinking very short term - what should we do with this particular bad guy.
 

Our present Government thinks long term and have been doing so for years. The problem with long term solutions is that they rarely get implemented and whilst you are waiting for it, another 500 people have been blown up.

Thal

[ahinton]

Indeed, but you do not have to deport to the Country of Origin, since some of our imprisoned terrorists are wanted by other countries.

Thal

That's true, of course, but then how far should the rights and responsibilities of the deporting country be expected to extend? - the mere fact that certain other countries might "want" certain alleged or actual terrorists imprisoned in UK should surely not alone determine that those countries alone are necessarily the ones to which such deportees should be deported? That would mean that the other countries concerned would be dictating to this country where such deportees should be sent and the UK would be agreeing to the demands of such other countries, irrespective of its own desires or judgements in such matters. And, in any case, even were the UK thus to kowtow to another country's demands over where certain deportees should be sent, what should we do with deportees who are "wanted" by more than one other country at the same time?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Our present Government thinks long term and have been doing so for years.

That is at least in part because it believes that it will remain in office for many years.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

what should we do with deportees who are "wanted" by more than one other country at the same time?

Use the judgement Solomon.

[ahinton]

Use the judgement Solomon.

I am not Solomon - Yonty of that ilk or otherwise. But I presume you to mean "use the judgement OF Solomon", yet your point in so saying is entirely unclear, so perhaps you might care to elucidate...

Best,

AListair