Son with Autism with great interest of music

[robert]

I have a son who is diagnosed as having high-functioning Autism and been tested as having unusually high IQ. He has an unusual musical interest and could as a 1 1/2 old watch an entire concerto with me, almost without taking his eyes from the TV. His interest from music has come and gone during the years and he is now 4 1/2 old but I have always understood that he has a great musical talent.

Every night when he goes to bed, as an example of his interest, he wants to watch fragments of his favorite piano recitals or concerts rather than me reading a book or play with him. He has his own piano in his room (so that I can spare my grand ) and tries to imitate the pianists. I put my laptop at the top of his piano and he sits and tries to play it the same way but does not succeed very well.

As I of course wants to help him in his progress, I try to teach him small melodies but the problem is that I cannot get him interested in the basics of playing. He rather wants to play the Appassionata right away (watching Myra Hess). Of course completely impossible but he sometimes takes the correct notes and listens carefully when they match. Also, I know he has a sensitive ear as when he is in his room and I take a note on the grand, he sometimes stop his playing and take the same tone on his piano in his room. First, it is incredible to have a perfect pitch like this but second and even more incredible is that he knows which note that sounds correct. But, as soon as I try to get him going from the ABC of the piano, he gets mad and me and refuses to play more, begins to yell, tries to remove my hands from his piano so we don't get anywhere.

So my inquiry (should be obvious by now) is if someone in here has taught a child with a similar syndrome and have some ideas that can help me and him.

[matterintospirit]

i've taught some children with various learning disabilities with some success, but have never dealt with autism and don't know too much about it. just off the top of my head it might be a good route based on your son's talent, ear, abilities,---- maybe to break down more complex peices of music that he is attracted to---break them down into smaller parts, and teach by having him imitate you, and put the smaller parts back together into a whole. Just a thought as your question gave me pause to think about it. there are perhaps organizations that deal with methods of teaching children with autism?

[b0mbtrack]

i agree, don't try to teach him the basics yet.  Let him have fun and in the future he can learn the basics but break down pieces that he likes into small parts hands seperate than put them together

[m1469]

As I of course wants to help him in his progress, I try to teach him small melodies but the problem is that I cannot get him interested in the basics of playing. (...)

But, as soon as I try to get him going from the ABC of the piano, he gets mad and me and refuses to play more, begins to yell, tries to remove my hands from his piano so we don't get anywhere.

Well, I will say that this is possibly a very wonderful opportunity.  But, before I pour out my thoughts and so on, I would like to ask you more about the two lines above. What, exactly, is the material that you are trying to teach him ?  What qualifies as 'the basics' for you ?

I have a lot of thoughts on this, but would rather have your answers to those questions first.  I will say, though, that no matter what, you are going to need to learn how to think like him and you will need to be able to pinpoint and then talk his particular (musical) language (there are already numerous hints toward this just in what you have described).

[amelialw]

I am teaching 2 kids with autism. One of whom is my brother, the other is a 6 year old boy.
For kids with autism, you can't teach them the usual way. You have to be creative yet be orginized and give them structured lessons.

[Torp]

I believe that some of the answers are contained within your observations. Your son has shown the desire to imitate and recreate the sounds that he hears. This is where the focus should be. Make a game out of it. He can obviously find one note on the piano when you play it on yours. Can he find two in succession? Can he find 50? Can he find 2 played simultaneaously? How about 10?

My questioning comes from the idea of creating games that are interesting to him yet also adequately challenge him to start creating some of the "basics" you might be referring to. Keep in mind that a lot of the basics are taught to people who don't really hear music. They have to learn notes and rests and rhythm. It sounds like this isn't something you really need to teach him; he already fundamentally grasps these concepts. He may not be able to play a concerto but he comprehends what is going on.

It sounds like your son has a strong connection on the auditory side. I would use this connection as the primary way to disseminate information to him. I wouldn't worry about things like technique. If his auditory skills are that good he will naturally do whatever is necessary in order to create the correct sound. In my mind I'm thinking Ray Charles, phenomenal connection between his ears and his fingers.

Let your son imitate simple stuff, then work up to more and more complex stuff.

Let us know how it goes.

Jef

[thalberg]

 I agree with Torp.  Your son seems to like to imitate, so perhaps teach him that way.

[pianowolfi]

I have no experience in teaching autistic students. But I have met two musically very talented and passionate persons with this syndrome whom I respect deeply. One of them has been a classmate of mine and has become a professional musician. He has studied the violin and the piano and works mainly as a piano teacher now. The other person was a passionate amateur musician. He played the violin. He was a "freak" He knew almost everything about the violin repertoire, about violin concerts, famous interpreters, cd's and so on. Autists can be exceptionally talented in a specific subject. There are also mathematicians among them. And others. I think, as far as i can say, the best "method" is letting him find his own way, encourage him as much as possible, ask him questions about his favorite subjects, let him discover and develop. I think from what you describe, his musical passion is very strong and he needs music like food. Feed him, try to find the way that is best for him to get everything he needs. Let him play Appassionata. Or whatever he likes. I think that autistic persons have a certain strength in going their own path and nothing will keep them away from their own way of perceiving.

Unfortunately the amateur violinist whom I talked about, was forced to give up, I think (if I remember correctly) by his father, who had really strange ideas about what "fits" for his son. At least that's the last thing I have heard about him and that was years ago. Makes me think.... I might ask somebody where he is now and how he is doing...

[robert]

First of all, I would like to thank you for replying so soon. That was more replies than I had hoped for and I will try to fill in some missing information which you ask for.

It is a matter to catch his attention because that the lack of attention is one of his problems. Another is to make something on request. For these two problems, we schedule his days using many pictures which we have on a wall at home and this is a very common way to help autistic people to bring some order in daily routines. as an example, before he wakes up, we have 5 pictures (not really pictures but drawn character which we make ourselves together with professional personnel). First when he goes to the toilet, second taking pyjamas off, clothes on, eat breakfast and then brush his teeth. Without these pictures, he can become confused and not know what to do or in what order to do things. It sounds strange for us normal people but the most natural things for us are the most unnatural things for him. And some things that comes very natural for him like remember a certain combination of figures is very difficult for us. That is because their brain does not know how to differ useless information from important. Also, he becomes, like many with Asperger's syndrom and HFA (High Functional Autism), very interested and skilled within a very small area. Like when he was 1 1/2 years old and could do for his age difficult puzzles. But well, he maybe laid 50 puzzles every day so of course he becomes skilled No normal kid would have the patience for that. He is also extremely good in computer games. For him they are very simple, you should usually do a certain stage and it is just to try all possible combinations of the stage and finally you make it. He can easily sit 8 hours playing if we do not have rules.

Now this is a long introduction and perhaps useless for the subject but it might give you a hint on his character.

One of you said that perhaps it is best to not do anything and just let him have fun at the piano and I agree to that. It is perhaps the best thing to do as I see him making progress every day when imitating pianists (today he had fun imitating Richter and laughed at him and said "he is angry with the piano"). Richter does look angry from time to time .

We have a great deal with help from the Swedish government and get treatments for free. Next meeting where we will schedule his autumn is tomorrow so I will bring this issue up and see if they know about some organisation specialised on educating autistic kids in music.

When it comes to what I refer to as basics, I more or less mean my old book from when I begin to play which is created to introduce people in piano playing with the auther Carl Bertil Agnestig. Anyone studying piano in Sweden known this author. The book has several series with different difficulties and contain a clever designed combination of well-known melodies transcribed for piano and in most cases simplified. All from Bach, Mozart, Joplin, Swedish hymns and children's songs etc. They focus on a certain technical issue and always show the scale the piece is in etc. I think it is a good start for the ordinary piano kid, however, I know I got bored pretty fast with them (and just to show the teach played the last piece of the book and suggested we should skip it). I am not sure I can describe better than this without scanning some sheets from it.

He has not yet made the connection from a note written on a page to a certain key and I am even not sure if it is important in his case. I am pretty certain I can teach him that later on if necessary.

As already suggested by you, imitating is a fun game but only when I sit at my grand and he at his piano and only when it fits him. This does not happen often so it seems impractical. When I want to show him something on his piano, he bang on my hands and want me to remove them every time. I have tried to name these games but without success. One thing that comes to my mind is that I perhaps should draw pictures of fingers playing certain keys or even better film my hands when I play a certain melody and also himself so that he can see what he is doing. Too bad the camera broke down some time ago but I guess I have to buy a new one . I have also tried by putting colors on the keys but that just made him angry with me.

Of course I want to learn to think like him. If I did that, I would hold the key to his mind and most like to his future. This is what the special kindergarten, me and my wife and the special clinic try to do all the time. It is just so difficult to understand him as he speak very poor. Or rather does not understand the importance of speaking which for us normal persons are extremely important. But for him, it is enough with "toilet, sleepy, hungry, angry, happy, ball, out, in, rain, cold, warm" and some other words. So he cannot describe what he thinks or what he feels. But at least we know that he thinks in terms of pictures as he is very picture oriented and remember much details as he cannot sort them out. Also, he likes structures and logical patterns. So by combining pictures with logics, we can communicate rather good with him and so can his older sister who is very patient and kind to him. Perhaps I now gave you a better insight in my son and his behavior.

I hope I don't bore you .

[Torp]

I hope I don't bore you .

It certainly isn't boring to me. Autism challenges mainstream teaching in many ways. A lot of that you've already hit on. Your son doesn't process information the same way as so called "normal" children. This challenges the way we have to provide it to them.

A lot of time when we start writing out views on things certain ideas come to mind. You mention that he uses pictures in order to gain structure. As a result I think your video idea is a very good one. By watching videos his brain may be able to process the information, his ear gives him the ability reproduce it. I encourage you to explore that further.

You mention that you would like to learn to think like him. The best book I've ever read on how the austic brain works is written by Dr. Temple Grandin. It's called, "Animals in Translation." A strange title, but a very good book. Temple is herself autistic. She has made a career in animal welfare. Her book is essentially a comparative study between and autistic brain and an animal brain. While this sounds very scientific and boring it's actually quite interesting and mostly autobiographical in nature. The book talks a lot about animal behavior but she is always doing this from the perpective of how that relates to the autistic brain. I found the book to be both fascinating and encouraging.

Jef

[thalberg]

Your son sounds wonderful!  I had an autistic pianist-friend in graduate school.  Relating to him was very different than relating to my other friends, but he really had a good heart.  I liked him a lot. 

There is a book on autism called "Thinking In Pictures."  It seems this may apply to your son.  It was written by an autistic person, I think....not quite sure.

https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Pictures-Expanded-Life-Autism/dp/0307275655/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-9499010-6061447?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188424438&sr=8-1

[Torp]

It was written by an autistic person, I think....not quite sure.

Yes, it is written by the same person, Temple Grandin, I mentioned above.

[m1469]

If you would like to (eventually) be able sit next to your son at the instrument without him getting angry, you will want to introduce this idea to him in a manner that he will completely be able to cope with and best understand.  If you are already employing a professional artist to create pictures for you on what he does for a daily routine, then go ahead and have your artist make some pictures (in the same style as the others) of piano-related matters. 

Have one created of him, sitting in his room at his piano, watching his computer and imitating the pianist (something he is very familiar with).  And then, have one of all the same elements as described in the former, but with you sitting in the room with him (crossing over into an area he needs help crossing over into).  If this is still too much for him, or if you want to start off more gently, don't have your features pronounced enough for you to be recognizable, or just have the picture be a view from behind where only the back of your head is visible whereas he is completely recognizeable.  In any event, he needs to warm up to the idea of somebody being there with him in a way that already makes more sense to him.

You could actually go a little nuts with this idea.  If you need to start off gentler than having pictures of you sitting right with him, then you could have some picture of you both at your own pianos at the same time, and put the pictures next to each other.  Put these pictures around, maybe right on the music rack and in other places, make it become a visual part of his daily routine. 

If it seems he can handle the photos of the two of you together, ask him what he thinks these pictures are about.  He certainly does not have to convey all of his being in words in order for one to understand (some)what is going on in his head.  You will want to be *extremely* observant of everything he does. 

Now, in the meantime, I would highly recommend that you do not try to teach him with these books.  He doesn't need them.  All of this is a really big subject and I have *a lot* more to say (for some reason), but I will need to come back because it wears me out trying to get all of this out... LOL, and I guess it won't hurt to break these thoughts up into separate posts.

[m1469]

Since he likes puzzles, you will want to capitalize on this.  Make a visual replication of his room with the piano being the main focus in the room.  Make a replication of him, as a separate figure, that he can place anywhere in the room.  Make a replication of you, as a separate figure, that he can also place anywhere in the room.  Tell him it's a puzzle and that you would like him to put it together.  Just observe what he does ... this may tell you a lot about his concept regarding these matters and may very well introduce things to you that you didn't even think about before. 

This is another idea you could go a little nuts with.  If he can't place you in the room, replicate more than just his room.  Replicate the house (including your own piano) and see where he places you.  If he were to place you at your own piano, for example, and he at his piano -- out of anywhere else in the entire house, this would be very interesting information, don't you think ?

[m1469]

Along the visual side of life, you are going to want to capitalize on that as well.  Your job in terms of teaching him the "basics" is actually very straight forward.  He needs a path to the Appassionata, and you need to pave it for him.

Make a copy of this that can be put on his wall or somewhere that he can see it everyday.  From here you can make hundreds of puzzles; aural, tactile and visual.

[m1469]

And some things that comes very natural for him like remember a certain combination of figures is very difficult for us. That is because their brain does not know how to differ useless information from important.

This is a problematic statement and I would encourage you to reconsider how this seems to come across.  Just because it doesn't seem like useful and meaningful information to somebody else, does not mean it is useless in general, and it certainly doesn't mean it is useless and meaningless to him.  It is the opposite; figures are actually very useful and meaningful to him, whereas the other stuff is not.  Nobody has to know why that is, it just is -- though if he is a fan of form and organization, then this probably has something to do with it since numbers and mathematics have a special organization.  Use that to help him.

I'll be back.

[Torp]

Just because it doesn't seem like useful and meaningful information to somebody else, does not mean it is useless in general, and it certainly doesn't mean it is useless and meaningless to him.

Herein lies the crux of autism. People who have their filters working properly cannot "see" what an autistic person sees. At best we might be able to conceptualize what it's like to be autistic, but we can never truly experience it or empathize with it.

The key is, as m1469 has suggested, to become hyper vigilant and observe everything. We must alway keep in mind too that no matter how observant we are we probably are seeing 1/100th if not 1/1000th of what they are seeing.

[m1469]

Well, here are more thoughts about all of this. 

The only way *anybody* can be understood is as an individual (and even that will fall short).  Maybe there are some commonalities between certain groups of people (or people whom are put into "groups" and categories), but that is true about all of us no matter who we are, what our background, what our future, so on. 

Autism is extremely variable, as probably most people know.  Maybe there are some commonalities between people whom are considered to be "autistic," but, perhaps those commonalities actually have more to do with human nature than anything else.  The point is, no matter what, he needs to be treated like an individual and special attention to what works for him individually is going to be the key -- and, ultimately, that is true for everybody.

We must alway keep in mind too that no matter how observant we are we probably are seeing 1/100th if not 1/1000th of what they are seeing.

This is true, of course, just like no matter how observant I am of you, I still don't know what it's like, or I am only seeing a fraction of what it means, to be you.

[Torp]

The point is, no matter what, he needs to be treated like an individual and special attention to what works for him individually is going to be the key -- and, ultimately, that is true for everybody.

I couldn't agree more. This is exactly why I feel that autism challenges mainstream teaching.

[m1469]

Okay, and here's a little more.


Why not do a lot of things at your piano and he at his ?  It seems like he is most comfortable as observer and then alone.  It seems he likes his piano experience to be somewhat private, perhaps, and as though he wants it to be *his* thing.  The fact that he mimics so much, both what he sees and hears, can be very useable.

So, why not break the appasionata into some very simple pieces that you can play at your instrument until he picks up on it at his ?  Well, there is *a lot* that you can do with him regarding all of this.

You say it's rare that you are both at your own instruments at the same time, but you can make a point of working this way for awhile.  Instead of trying to sit with him, sit at your instrument and do things from there.  Communicate with him through music and let him communicate with you.

[lostinidlewonder]

I teach someone with Asperges, which can be considered also a High Funtioning Autistic. I have realised that the way in which they learn is extremely routined and structured. You must find a way which works(music that they enjoy playing) and stick with that. My student also only plays Bach, although I was very surprised he took to Shostakovich's Prelude and Fugues, probably because he saw its relationship with Bach's WTC. If I try to get him to play some other composer his learning rate drops considerably. The mind wanders and they get so caught up over details which are inferior to their thinking. There was some unusual syncopation in a Debussy piece I tried to get him to play and he spent the entire week drawing out mathematically how the notes where related to one another in that syncopated instance. He would chain off into a logical but complicated realm of representations describing the "unusual" music in as many ways as he could possible mathematically (he is a maths teacher by profession). But all these associations had nothing to do with actually playing, he found it more interesting drawing out the maths of the music than learning the music on a keboard itself!

I for one believe that Autism IS A GIFT not a disability. Certainly you cannot teach as you teach with other students, you must really get to know your student, and know their routine, how they learn, how they deal with stress, how to always make them comfortable etc. The stronger your relationhip is with them AS A FRIEND, the better they will learn I have found.

[robert]

Sorry for being very late in my reply but it has been a lot lately with a far away wedding etc.

I have carefully read all of your replies and I thank you all for taking the time to discuss this to me very important matter. Especially you m1469 who really took the time to give me ideas and inspiration.

I have found a piece that he likes to play and which I have begun to teach him. Pretty strange piece which I am not sure exists in other places than in Sweden. Directly translated, it is named "Little snail, be aware..." We have a lot snails around where we live which is terrible for the garden so my wife goes out every evening and kill them with a special tool. Yes I know it sounds horrible but I can assure you that she is normal . She probably takes out 100-200 every night but the populate so fast. Anyway, I know Oliver makes this connection so the piece makes sense for him on another way than just musical.

I have drawn a picture of the keys involved in the piece and also written out in letters the keys he should play in correct order along with his hand and fingers. There is also a text naming the piece and a picture of a snail. He likes the picture and the idea of playing the piece and I think this is a very good start. Now when he has accept the concept of playing from a picture, I believe he can accept other pieces in the future as well. It is also obvious that he likes to be greatly rewarded when playing correct and I must exaggerate the response when he does something right so now he expects the applause. Also, his older sister and mother is invited and it is ok as long as they sit in chair 2-3 meters away from him and then we all applause when he is finished.

Next thing I will try to do is to extend the time we practice and the things we practice. Of course I will still leave him playing for himself to the DVD and he does that about 30 minutes every day to the horror of his sister .

[anna_crusis]

Honestly, I don't think your son sounds any different to any 4.5 yo I've ever met.

I think it would be much better if you forgot about teaching him pieces and just had fun with him. Lots of clapping, singing, musical games and the like for at least a year before attempting anything too arduous. He needs to discover his own musicality.

If I were in your shoes I would start by listening to simple sections of his favourite pieces and building on his natural ability to mimic the notes. Then I would try to gradually guide him into using all his fingers, out of which you could in turn build up some simple five finger scales. Then a lot of mimicry, where you play a bar or two of something and see if he can copy it.

Just one or two new little things each day, with lots of fuss and encouragement. Before too long he'll get addicted to the buzz of learning.

[robert]

Having fun works great so far and he has now made the connection between the written note and the keyboard. At least he knows a a couple of notes but he very much connects them to which finger he "must" use. It is complex for him as in a certain melody, one finger should be applied on a certain key but in next melody in the very same piece, you should use another. He kind of pay too much attention to things like that.

He can play with two hands if the pieces are very easy and as I have always suspected, he has a very good pitch and we have worked out fun games training the ability. He even plays tricks on me .
Just check the linked video I made yesterday:
https://server3.pianosociety.com/protected/tmp/oliver-2007-12-09.wmv

[nyquist]

You mentioned that your son likes computer games.  Have you researched teaching software that uses a MIDI keyboard?  I got many hits when doing a Google search.  For example,

https://www.amazon.com/Soft-Mozart-piano-teaching-software/dp/B000LJO68C

Good Luck!
nyquist