Why such negativity about Sorabji?

[bachundrach]

Golly Gee,

What in the world do people have against Sorabji?  Thalbergmad seems to have a misplaced aversion to Sorabji's music.   Is not that an aversion based on unfamiliarity of Sorabji's oeuvre?  I'm shocked and appalled by this seeming indifference.  Sorabji's work is that of a genius.  His detractors are probably just jealous people who would benefit immensely from serious musicological study and performance of his works.

[ahinton]

Golly Gee,

What in the world do people have against Sorabji?  Thalbergmad seems to have a misplaced aversion to Sorabji's music.   Is not that an aversion based on unfamiliarity of Sorabji's oeuvre?  I'm shocked and appalled by this seeming indifference.  Sorabji's work is that of a genius.  His detractors are probably just jealous people who would benefit immensely from serious musicological study and performance of his works.

People can say and think (not necesarily the same thing, any more than it is necessarily a guarantee that what people say is what they think, always assuming that they even do think in the first place) whatever they may choose, but the music of Sorabji remains as it was and is. Please don't worry about this, for there are undoubtedly plenty of people who have it in for just about any other composer that you could possibly name so, in that sense, Sorabji is often in very good company. I do not know how much of Sorabji's music Thalbergmad has heard and on which he forms what is apparently reckoned to be his opinion, but then the question of how much of Sorabji's music he or anyone else may have heard is entirely up to him and them respectively, while the music itself remains unchanged. Sorabji is undoubtedly one of the major forces in the music of the past century, but then since when did that kind of accolade guarantee the universal acceptance of the composer concerned? The great thing to remember is that Sorabji isn't going away any time soon - very much the reverse, in fact, since more and more new typeset editions of his music are being prepared by excellent and conscientious scholars who are devoted to the cause, an inevitable consequence of which will be increasing numbers of performances; there are now well over 30 CDs of his music around and the total is gradually increasing, whereas a mere 3 decades ago, there was almost nothing of his on record.

Best,

Alistair

[jabbz]

I am curious about Sorabji, but I find I hear so little of him to be disheartening. The character of Sorabji is an enigma to me. I have nothing against his music, and of course, I don't think I understand it, but I certainly have nothing against it.

[thalbergmad]

Thalbergmad seems to have a misplaced aversion to Sorabji's music.   Is not that an aversion based on unfamiliarity of Sorabji's oeuvre? 

You have obviously not seen my posts where i expressed my admiration for Le Jardin Perfume and suggested the transcription of Bach's Chromatic Fantasy was a work of genius.

I suppose i have listened to about 12 Cd's in total, and looked through about 40 to 50 scores, so i have not formed an opinion without some effort. The piece i have remarked on negatively in the past is the OC, which is not of sufficient quality to hold my attention for 4 hours. Saying that, Keira Knightly could not hold my attention for 4 hours, so perhaps the fault is with me and not Sorabji.

You must appreciate that one mans nectar is another mans poison and i reserve the right to say what i damned well want about any composer.  

You will see this if you hang around here long enough.

Thal

[invictious]

Wow, thalbergmad, bravo, bravo, honest.

Maybe Jennifer Connelly can hold my attention for 4 hours? But I tend to lost concentration after 30 minutes of non stop music already, it's just like an overload.

Maybe it's just me too..I just can't appreciate the OC.

[bachundrach]

I thank Mr. Hinton for a very thoughtful response to my query.   Given time and increasing number of recordings and performances,  there should soon be rectification and acknowledgement of one of the most brilliant composers in music history.

Thalbergmad,  I appreciate your candor and openness of mind.  'Tis great that you *leave the doors open* towards greater understanding.

Cheers.

Btw - Thal,  even about Sigismund Thalberg? 

[ian_j]

I don't think there has been a recording of OC that does it full justice yet; both the Madge and Ogdon accounts are seriously flawed. Most of Sorabji's music that I have heard has considerable merits, although I can't say that I *know* much of it. I have Powell's recording of the huge 4th Sonata and it seems far more impressive than the OC. However, I would say that a lot of Sorabji's music falls into just a few categories (exotic night music; complex fugues; devilish toccatas etc...) and one piece can seem much like another (IMHO).

I also question the length of some of his pieces and can only assume he didn't mean his music to be listened to by Joe Public but by afficianados with brains the size of small planets who are able to truly understand the music. I know he wanted to hog an entire evening's performance, but with what end in mind? To prevent comparison with other composers, or to channel the concentration of the audience into his mindset maybe? I can think of one or two other composers who write music of considerable duration - Alastair, would you care to comment on that last thought?

[ahinton]

I don't think there has been a recording of OC that does it full justice yet; both the Madge and Ogdon accounts are seriously flawed. Most of Sorabji's music that I have heard has considerable merits, although I can't say that I *know* much of it. I have Powell's recording of the huge 4th Sonata and it seems far more impressive than the OC. However, I would say that a lot of Sorabji's music falls into just a few categories (exotic night music; complex fugues; devilish toccatas etc...) and one piece can seem much like another (IMHO).

I also question the length of some of his pieces and can only assume he didn't mean his music to be listened to by Joe Public but by afficianados with brains the size of small planets who are able to truly understand the music. I know he wanted to hog an entire evening's performance, but with what end in mind? To prevent comparison with other composers, or to channel the concentration of the audience into his mindset maybe? I can think of one or two other composers who write music of considerable duration - Alastair, would you care to comment on that last thought?

I'll be pleased to comment on most of what you write here, if that's OK with you.

The small number of categories that you cite make no mention of variation sets, transcriptions, symphonic first movements, character pieces (like Fantaisie Espagnole, Fantasia Ispanica, etc.), aphoristic fragments (of which there are three sets) and studies - and that's only the piano music; what about the piano quintets and other chamber music, the organ works, the songs? Sorabji spread his ideas over a far wider canvas than you imply here.

I'm not sure that he really had much idea of who might listen to his work, really, but your idea that he wanted to hog an entire programme, even if it were true at all, would not cover most of his work; of his 60-odd piano works, for example, three-quarters would fit into a conventional length recital programme and most of those are short enough to be shared with other composers. Jonathan Powell (wait until HE records OC!) has, for example, given programmes pairing, for example Busoni's Fantasia Contrappuntistica with Sorabji's Toccata I, Granados's Goyescas with Sorabji's Fantasia Ispanica, Alkan's solo concerto with Sorabji's. The songs are also easily programmable with other composers' songs, as they alway have been. Other composers' durations are, at best, like Sorabji's in that the object of the exercise is to try to get the duration right for the content, whether the piece is four seconds, four minutes or four hours. Of course there is always a potential danger that a piece can be over-written, duration-wise, but I think that few composers would make a habit of very long durations unless there was a musical necessity for it. In this context, perceived time is more important than real time in any case - as in Jonathan Powell's performance of OC in New York where I found myself astonished that he was already playing Fugue III and a whole 2 hours had elapsed that felt nothing like so long.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Thalbergmad,  I appreciate your candor and openness of mind.  'Tis great that you *leave the doors open* towards greater understanding.

Thanks old chap, i do try to leave the doors open with composers.

I have found Sorabji in my experience to be an acquired taste. I did not like my first experience of his music, but after a while it grew on me. In the same fashion, i did not like my first pint of Guiness, but now i am a great admirer.

The other problem i have is being only a part time hack pianist, just about everything he wrote is beyond me, whereas the salonesque ditties that i love so much, i can actually play.

Thal

PS I would not take any of my posts seriously. 99% of everything i write on here is complete crap.

[bachundrach]

ian_j,

I have a *regular sized brain* - not that superhuman kind thats as large as small planets.  As a musicologist/organist/pianist who by dint of *sweat equity* has acquired a humble amount of knowledge, let me briefly state that the Muse strikes every composer and performer differently.  She sometimes enables the composer or performer to acheive *superhuman* feats that are not possible by *ordinary mortals*. 

Yes, she is quite capricious - we usually understand *after the fact* when she's been around and *graced* certain individuals.  Now, who they might be I cannot even pretend to have the answer and thankfully I have not been given that *gift* of divining who amongst us is the next *shining star on the firmament of the Heavens*.

Upon hearing Michael Habermann's various recordings of Sorabji I understood that Sorabji was not a fluke or a *here today, gone tomorrow* phenomenon.  His tonal language is unique and does not leave one untouched.

Cheers.

[bachundrach]

Thal,

When I heard *Le Jardin Parfumee* for the first time I was hooked - and that was 22 years ago.  Bach and Rachmaninoff have been with me since my very early childhood days and will always be with me 'til I start pushing up daisies.  As you so presciently stated - *One man's nectar is another man's poison* -  Michael Finnissy's piano oeuvre?  Maybe it's me,  but I have a hard time *drinking that hemlock* flowing from Finnissy's pen - Nothing personal mind you.

BTW - Last night I played through the heartachingly tender Study No. 20 from Sorabji's *100* - it takes one's breath away.


Cheers.

[franzliszt2]

I was always a little untouched by Sorabji's music, and I formed an opinion on it before I'd even heard it a while ago when people were like "woah virtuosity". That just makes me determained not to hear it. But when I did I changed my opinion to "I could like this music, but so far I'm not convinced fully"

Then I heard Yonty Solomon play Sorabji! A pianist with a sound like his playing Sorabji! Mindblowing!! The sheer amount of colour he gets from the piano, and the way he shapes it all is just amazing!

Where can I get hard copies of scores? I'm not interested in any internet sheets. Aparently it's impossible to get them in music shops...so how do I go about getting them?

[bachundrach]

franzliszt2,

Do drop a line to Mr. Alistair Hinton at <sorabji-archive@lineone.net> and he will gladly provide you anything your heart desires.

Cheers.

[franzliszt2]

oh great! Thanks, how expensive are these scores? ( if possible)

[thalbergmad]

https://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk/index.php

All the scores and prices are listed on the Sorabji Archive site.

Bill Gates would think twice about purchasing some of the larger scores, but overall, i think they are fair.

Thal

[ahinton]

https://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk/index.php

All the scores and prices are listed on the Sorabji Archive site.

Bill Gates would think twice about purchasing some of the larger scores, but overall, i think they are fair.

Thal

Thanks, Thal(!) - but I would go farther and say that I suspect that Bill Gates wouldn't even think once about buying any of them, but that would only be because he probably doesn't read music and wouldn't be interested anyway.

We've been supplying scores and literary writings for 20 years or so and none of our prices have changed during that time apart from the very cheapest scores - and even these have increased in price only because of increases in shipping costs (all prices quoted on our website include shipping within UK).

We're happy to help with any information whenever anyone requires it.

Best,

Alistair

[jabbz]

hey, Alistair,
How come you're so into Sorabji?

[ahinton]

hey, Alistair,
How come you're so into Sorabji?

Quite simply, I am his literary executor, founded The Sorabji Archive during the 1980s and continue to run it to this day; please check the website whose URL Thal cited earlier in this thread for further information.

Best,

Alistair

[franzliszt2]

Quite simply, I am his literary executor, founded The Sorabji Archive during the 1980s and continue to run it to this day; please check the website whose URL Thal cited earlier in this thread for further information.

Best,

Alistair

60 pound for an OC score??? That is soooo cheap!!!!!!! wow I was expecting 500 at LEAST! is it really just 60 pound??

[thalbergmad]

Cheap indeed, and you get a free Sorabji alarm clock that plays the first few bars.

Enough to wake anyone.

Thal

[ahinton]

60 pound for an OC score??? That is soooo cheap!!!!!!! wow I was expecting 500 at LEAST! is it really just 60 pound??

It depends upon where you wish it to be sent. It's 60 pounds inclusive of shipping within UK; it's abit more than that if it's to be shipped elsewhere.

You were expecting it to cost at least five hundred pounds? Why? Who do you think we are - the British Library? I don't think that even that august institution would charge quite that much if they were supplying it!...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Cheap indeed, and you get a free Sorabji alarm clock that plays the first few bars.

Enough to wake anyone.

Thal

Whether or not it would be enough to wake anyone is anyone else's guess, but I fear that you are misiniforming people here, Thal; that was a special offer that we ran to promote it in advance of John Ogdon's performance of it in London in July 1988. You really must keep more up to date, you know.

Anyway, those first few notes should be more than enough to enqure continued wakefulness in the listener when played on the intended instrument, the piano, without any need to resort to alarm clocks.

To return to more serious OC-related matters, we will be sure to inform people when Jonathan Powell records the work and, as far as I am many othes are concerned, that cannot come soon enough.

In the meantime, however, anyone interested in Jonathan Powell's traversals of many aspects of Sorabji on disc may relish his accounts of Passeggiata Veneziana, Villa Tasca, Toccata I, Sonata IV, Fantasia Ispanica, Gulistan, Rosario d'Arabeschi, Concerto per suonare da ma solo, Djami, Un Nido di Scatole and St. Bertrand de Comminges - more than 9¼ hours of music, all magnificently played, so that should be more than enough to be going on with. Quite a few of these are world première recordings. No other musician in history has performed and recorded so much of Sorabji's music as Jonathan Powell who, it is not too much to say, has set new standards of expectation in the presentation of this repertoire (he has several additional Sorabji works under his fingers that he's yet to record, including the piano parts of the songs that he has performed with Sarah Leonard and Loré Lixenberg). All these recordings are on the Altarus label (as is Ogdon's OC) and all Altarus recordings (not just those of Sorabji's music) are available direct from us at The Sorabji Archive.

Best,

Alistair

[bachundrach]

Thal,

I beg of you to be nice to Mr. Hinton and others who may inquire about Sorabji, ok?  With over 6000 submitted comments to your credit I would like to believe that you are a reasonable chap.

Cheers.

[jabbz]

Alistair, You knew Sorabji personally? Did you see him at work much? Did you get an insight into his compositional techniques?

[schubertiad]

I'm not a fan of the OC at all. Although the girls are pretty hot, I have to admit.

[franzliszt2]

It depends upon where you whish it to be sent. It's 60 pounds inclusive of shipping within UK; it's abit more than that if it's to be shipped elsewhere.

You were expecting it to cost at least five hundred pounds? Why? Who do you think we are - the British Library? I don't think that even that august institution would charge quite that much if they were supplying it!...

Best,

Alistair

wow I'll definatly be purchasing a score very soon! I'm in London so it will be 60 pound! woop!! I always assumed it would be so expensive for some reason :-s

How would I go about getting it? Just email the archive? can you send checks in the post to buy it?

[mephisto]

Do you have paypal? I used it when ordering from the archive. There were no problems.

[ahinton]

Alistair, You knew Sorabji personally?

Yes - from 1972.

Did you see him at work much?

Once only - and then but briefly while he was completing a particular page of Il Grido del Gallino d'Oro that he wanted to finish before going to make some tea.

Did you get an insight into his compositional techniques?

Not by watching him work (and somewhat surreptitiously in any case) on that one occasion, or through conversations with him, for although there were many such conversations, he hardly ever wanted to talk about his music at all, let alone how he went about composing it.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I'm not a fan of the OC at all. Although the girls are pretty hot, I have to admit.

That's such an old joke...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

wow I'll definatly be purchasing a score very soon! I'm in London so it will be 60 pound! woop!! I always assumed it would be so expensive for some reason :-s

How would I go about getting it? Just email the archive? can you send checks in the post to buy it?

Yes, you can email us at sorabji-archive@lineone.net. Payment, catalogue and other details are on www.sorabji-archive.co.uk. We can accept cheques in British pounds drawn on British banks or PayPal.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I would like to believe that you are a reasonable chap.

I sometimes fail.

Thal

[schubertiad]

That's such an old joke...

Best,

Alistair

It can't be that old...
Anyway, apologies for hijacking a serious thread.

[bachundrach]

Thal,

As I do also fail / Mea Culpa - Mea Maxima Culpa!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A Calvin and Hobbes comic strip which was mounted and framed had Calvin uttering the following phrase:  *The Lord put me on this Earth to do a certain number of things.  Right now I'm so far behind I fear that I will never die*.   


Cheers.

[ahinton]

Thal,

As I do also fail / Mea Culpa - Mea Maxima Culpa!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(done your homework, I see!...)

A Calvin and Hobbes comic strip which was mounted and framed had Calvin uttering the following phrase:  *The Lord put me on this Earth to do a certain number of things.  Right now I'm so far behind I fear that I will never die*.   


Cheers.

So that's how Elliott Carter was invented, was it?!...

Best,

Alistair

[bachundrach]

Alistair,

No, I'm no Latin scholar by any means or stretch of the imagination - only by hook and by crook and by dint of *sweat equity* have I commited said Latin phrase to memory.

In re to Elliott Carter - Well, I don't enough of the poor sod to make any sense - now, however, I chuckle every time I see or hear the name of Arthur Bliss - was it not Sir Arthur Piss that Maitre Sorabji spoke of?

 

[ahinton]

In re to Elliott Carter - Well, I don't enough of the poor sod to make any sense

Whatever he is, it certainly isn't that...

- now, however, I chuckle every time I see or hear the name of Arthur Bliss - was it not Sir Arthur Piss that Maitre Sorabji spoke of?

He did make such a reference once, yes; hardly one of his more important remarks...

Best,

Alistair

[bachundrach]

Alistair,

Yes, it wasn't one of his important remarks - I got a kick out of it since an acquiantance of mine is so into the music of Bliss - Ah yes, *Another man's poison*.  Bliss's music is like a dowdy day in the industrial wastelands of Dagenham.   

[ahinton]

Alistair,

Yes, it wasn't one of his important remarks - I got a kick out of it since an acquiantance of mine is so into the music of Bliss - Ah yes, *Another man's poison*.  Bliss's music is like a dowdy day in the industrial wastelands of Dagenham.   

If you say so.

Best,

Alistair

[webern78]

Sorabji's work is that of a genius. 

How so?

[ahinton]

How so?

Whether and to what extent Sorabji's work can be considered to be that of a genius will inevitably be a matter for the ear of the beholder, so to speak; your question here suggests that it may not be the case in your personal view, but that is up to you, of course. There can be little doubt, however, that his piano writing in particular is among the most significant of the past century.

How many Webern works were ever issued on 78s? That is surely a matter of fact rather than individual opinion, although the answer may not be so easy to come by...

Best,

Alistair

[jabbz]

I would say Sorabji's piano writing in the past century is extremely important, but unfortunately, perhaps nearly unknown. Maybe I'm just ignorant, but I had never heard of Sorabji before I came upon PianoStreet, and unfortunately, I haven't yet met any other musician in person that is aware of him. I certainly wish to learn more of Sorabji (hopefully hear some of his music, I've hardly heard any), but unfortunately, as a student, and a student in very humble circumstances, I can not afford to purchase any sheet music I know I certainly can't perform. And also unfortunately, any Sorabji CDs seem to be unobtainable. Can we convince someone to record to the Naxos lable?

[ahinton]

unfortunately, any Sorabji CDs seem to be unobtainable. Can we convince someone to record to the Naxos lable?

If that were true, it would indeed be unfortunate. Fortunately, however, it is not. Check out www.altarusrecords.com where you will find not all but a goodly number of those CDs which are not only available but which have in some cases been available for quite some time now. BIS are gradually recording the complete 100 Transcendental Studies but each CD in that cycle will be made available separately rather than only as a boxed set of the lot - so far, only volume I is available. We at The Sorabji Archive supply all CDs on the Altarus label; if you are based in US, you can also get them (probablty more cheaply) via www.recordsinternational.com. There are plenty of Sorabji CDs available; just go and order some if you want them!

Best,

Alistair

[bachundrach]

Alistair,

*If you say so*

Point well taken 

[ahinton]

Alistair,

*If you say so*

Point well taken 

I just happen to think that, whilst there were undoubtedly greater British contemporaries of Bliss, he himself wasn't half as bad a composer as KSS was on occasion wont to suggest...

Best,

Alistair

[minor9th]

Speaking of Altarus Records, why do they never state the length of tracks, or even sometimes the track number?

[bachundrach]

Alistair,

I guess some of my apprehension towards Bliss stems partly because of my acquaintance's almost deifying Bliss i.e. hardly ever listening to anything else and speaking of him in such tones of reverence, adulation and...It's enough to make one wretch 

Anyway, Imho Sorabji's *hyperpuissance* in composing his major works kept him at such Olympian heights so as to confound others whose compositional skills were not so keen.   I shall entertain the thought that this might have put-off some of his contemporaries,  however, I might be wrong in this my assumption.

Cheers.

[webern78]

Whether and to what extent Sorabji's work can be considered to be that of a genius will inevitably be a matter for the ear of the beholder, so to speak

Following your criteria, there is no such thing as a 'genius' in the first place. Why did you even bother replying to my inquiry?

[ahinton]

Following your criteria, there is no such thing as a 'genius' in the first place.

Not necessarily.

Why did you even bother replying to my inquiry?

This is perhaps something best asked of yourself.

Best,

Alistair

[webern78]

Not necessarily.

Meaning?

[lostinidlewonder]

A lot of Sorabji's writings are not very friendly to your ears and offers little interest to those who are not musicians or play the piano. There are many of his pieces which really should be played more like his pastiche on 'The Song of India', from Korsakov's Sadako Opera. The OC is tollerable only in small amounts, Habermann's playing of first few movements is the best recording I've heard so far.

Much of Sorabji's music has to be played by yourself since there are no existing public recordings. So a lot of peoples opinions are based on a small window that have been presented in recordings. Sorabji makes me think of Bach on acid.